PCT for coming off of 4 year cycle

[Argon Coagulator]

Got blood results back. This was from 1000iu/eod of hcg, and 25mg of nolva EOD, along with my AI.

Total test: 359 ng/dl (264-916)
Lh: .1 (1.7-9.6)
FSH: <.02 (1.5-12.4).
Estradiol: 17.3 (7.6-42.6).

Everything is roughly where I expected, I am slightly concerned that total test is on the lower end even with a decent amount of HCG. Though I have no idea what my baseline levels ever were. Does anyone have any thoughts one way or another?

I'm planning to finish out the week on HCG, then begin the nolva/clomid at 50/20. Any thoughts one way or another there?

I feel like my testicles have been basically the same size for about a week now, they don't seem to get sore following the HCG, so I feel like the HCG has basically done what it can at this point, and it makes sense to start the pituitary/hypothalamus side of things.

With four years of suppression it's nearly a miracle you're even producing that much test. HCG has not "done all it can", don't draw conclusions like that on your own, that is dangerous. Using HCG after long-term shut down requires much more than a standard 4-6 week PCT. You are only scratching the surface of your recovery and will likely cripple yourself if you discontinue HCG at this point. You really need to be seeing an endo/infertility specialist.

Edit: you shouldn't need to run nolva constantly if you are already controlling estro with AI. Nolva is better to use "As Needed" incase of a gyno flare. AI should be adequate for gyno prevention. When my nips get sensitive I pop one 20mg Nolvadex tab and I'm good to go.

 

[PapaNoel]

The only reason I am taking the nolvadex is to be preventative for Gyno, I have been pretty sensitive to estrogen in the past, and was concerned about the HCG causing gyno. I have 3 injections of HCG left, you would suggest doing them every 3 days?

I've done indepth research on the matter since i've previously had gyno lump and was thinking the same, worst possible idea you could come up with, now add what IMT just said and its plain horrible.
Long Term use of nolvadex will fuck you real good, loss of libido, nausea, tired and it also acts in an estrogenic manner, meaning you'll eventually get high estrogen symptoms and side effects from it.
I've written a long post about it but to lazy to find it, gonna go sleep.

 

[Sharkweek]

Why are you stopping HCG though if your TT is not optimal yet? As suggested by others, you need to stay on HCG for a while longer and increase the dosage. I wouldn't worry about the whole E2 thing, it is widely touted, but rarely seen clinically. I wouldn't take that until I was done with HCG, if estrogen is a problem, you control it with anastrozole so that it can optimize your free t.

Tamox just blocks the receptors, it doesn't do much and is pretty toxic.

What dosing amount and schedule would you reccomend? I had thought every other day dosing was appropriate until reading your above comments, but you had suggested a higher dose with less frequency. Would that be 1500IU every 3 days? 2000IU twice a week?

With four years of suppression it's nearly a miracle you're even producing that much test. HCG has not "done all it can", don't draw conclusions like that on your own, that is dangerous. Using HCG after long-term shut down requires much more than a standard 4-6 week PCT. You are only scratching the surface of your recovery and will likely cripple yourself if you discontinue HCG at this point. You really need to be seeing an endo/infertility specialist.

Edit: you shouldn't need to run nolva constantly if you are already controlling estro with AI. Nolva is better to use "As Needed" incase of a gyno flare. AI should be adequate for gyno prevention. When my nips get sensitive I pop one 20mg Nolvadex tab and I'm good to go.

I've done indepth research on the matter since i've previously had gyno lump and was thinking the same, worst possible idea you could come up with, now add what IMT just said and its plain horrible.
Long Term use of nolvadex will fuck you real good, loss of libido, nausea, tired and it also acts in an estrogenic manner, meaning you'll eventually get high estrogen symptoms and side effects from it.
I've written a long post about it but to lazy to find it, gonna go sleep.

Point taken on everything, I have a bunch of aromasin and another 10,000 IU of HCG on the way. I have discontinued the nolva after seeing my bloodwork results. I would appreciate any thoughts on dosing of the HCG though. Thanks again.

 

[IMT staff]

We think 1500 IU every 3 days is a great starting dose.

 

[Sharkweek]

We think 1500 IU every 3 days is a great starting dose.

Roger that, I will run out the rest of the HCG at that dose/interval.

I assume bloodwork towards the end of that would be good as well to see if levels have continued to climb, and where they are at?

 

[PapaNoel]

We think 1500 IU every 3 days is a great starting dose.

I've have not been taking HCG for 2-3 weeks now, no vials, anyhow, they arrived today and been thinking of doing a mid cycle blast to get my balls up and running again, something like 1000 iu eod for a week. My balls are non existent right now, never been smaller...
I'm concerned it would be counter productive in the long run and I would benefit more from doing that blast end of my cycle instead?

Whats your thought here?
I have 20k IU HCG and about 10 weeks cycle left so, I got enough to cover myself i think

 

[Sharkweek]

I've have not been taking HCG for 2-3 weeks now, no vials, anyhow, they arrived today and been thinking of doing a mid cycle blast to get my balls up and running again, something like 1000 iu eod for a week. My balls are non existent right now, never been smaller...
I'm concerned it would be counter productive in the long run and I would benefit more from doing that blast end of my cycle instead?

Whats your thought here?
I have 20k IU HCG and about 10 weeks cycle left so, I got enough to cover myself i think

I would think you would want to just run out the rest of the cycle at like 500IU-1000IU 2x or 3x a week. That way you dont need the blast at the end.

Just my newbie opinion though.

 

[IMT staff]

Roger that, I will run out the rest of the HCG at that dose/interval.

I assume bloodwork towards the end of that would be good as well to see if levels have continued to climb, and where they are at?

Yea and give yourself like 2 weeks of HCG when you do your draw so you can get your results before you decide it is time to come off HCG. If the results, and your feeling, do not suggest you are ready then there is no point in going to SERM's

I've have not been taking HCG for 2-3 weeks now, no vials, anyhow, they arrived today and been thinking of doing a mid cycle blast to get my balls up and running again, something like 1000 iu eod for a week. My balls are non existent right now, never been smaller...
I'm concerned it would be counter productive in the long run and I would benefit more from doing that blast end of my cycle instead?

Whats your thought here?
I have 20k IU HCG and about 10 weeks cycle left so, I got enough to cover myself i think

I agree with Sharkweek here, HCG during TRT just keeps the balls from dying, it doesn't actually make them function optimally. During a HCG blast, you want them to function optimally before stopping, because if your nuts can't produce T at their maximal capacity through HCG stimulation, they def won't be able to with eugonadal LH and FSH.

This is why many PCT's fail, because people start their HCG too soon. You need to wait like 3-4 weeks after TE to start your HCG blast. Levels need to drop below 400 ng/dl

 

[PapaNoel]

I would think you would want to just run out the rest of the cycle at like 500IU-1000IU 2x or 3x a week. That way you dont need the blast at the end.

Just my newbie opinion though.

Yeh, that's my idea long term for my current cycle, 500iu, monday, wednesday, friday.
But was more curious if it was worth trying to kickstart them back again since I have soooo much HCG and they've shrunk heavily these past 3 weeks without any.
I wasn't trying to get them to produce any noteworthy amount of testerone, more dusting off the engine and making sure it runs smooth again so to speak
I will blast at the end regardless since I had to buy 4x when I only needed 3x vials..

 

[Sharkweek]

Does HCG make anyone else feel kind of wierd? Overly irritable, sensitive, etc?

I pinned 1500IU yesterday afternoon, and by about 9pm I felt off. Also had some swelling in my upper Scrotum area last night, I'm assuming it's related, but no way to prove it. It has mostly subsided, but still somewhat there this morning. Anyone else experienced anything similar? At first I thought I had a hernia.

 

[thatotherguy]

Does HCG make anyone else feel kind of wierd? Overly irritable, sensitive, etc?

I pinned 1500IU yesterday afternoon, and by about 9pm I felt off. Also had some swelling in my upper Scrotum area last night, I'm assuming it's related, but no way to prove it. It has mostly subsided, but still somewhat there this morning. Anyone else experienced anything similar? At first I thought I had a hernia.

I never had these issues.

 

[IMT staff]

Does HCG make anyone else feel kind of wierd? Overly irritable, sensitive, etc?

I pinned 1500IU yesterday afternoon, and by about 9pm I felt off. Also had some swelling in my upper Scrotum area last night, I'm assuming it's related, but no way to prove it. It has mostly subsided, but still somewhat there this morning. Anyone else experienced anything similar? At first I thought I had a hernia.

Yea some users will report a sensation in the testes after a nice size dosage of HCG like that, but that just means its working

 

[Sharkweek]

Yea some users will report a sensation in the testes after a nice size dosage of HCG like that, but that just means its working

That's reassuring, still pretty uncomfortable though lol

I know the process is far from complete, but I feel as though I have responded pretty well to both coming off, and the HCG, atleast to this point.

When I get bloodwork done again (planning for roughly 2 weeks from now), I assume LH and FSH will likely still be 0? Really just looking for an increase in total T? Is there a number that I should be shooting for on the estradiol? I assume as long as it is under the upper limit of 42 I would still be in a range that would not be suppressive?

Sorry for so many questions.

 

[IMT staff]

Exactly, we wanna see 700 TT

E2 won't really matter, because if it is successful then we are coming off HCG anyway.

 

[Argon Coagulator]

I've have not been taking HCG for 2-3 weeks now, no vials, anyhow, they arrived today and been thinking of doing a mid cycle blast to get my balls up and running again, something like 1000 iu eod for a week. My balls are non existent right now, never been smaller...
I'm concerned it would be counter productive in the long run and I would benefit more from doing that blast end of my cycle instead?

Whats your thought here?
I have 20k IU HCG and about 10 weeks cycle left so, I got enough to cover myself i think

I would say yes, go ahead and start HCG. You want to reverse shrinkage asap. Next time just start HCG by week 4-6 of any cycle or whenever you notice shrinkage occurring which is a good indicator of shut down.

- On longer term cycle pin 500iu every 3 days or 2x/wk for maintenance.

- During the last 3-6 weeks of the cycle AND while esters clear, crank the HCG up to 500iu EOD, OR I suppose 1000-1500iu every 3rd would be similarly efficacious (albeit with slightly more potential for sides) if EOD pinning is a problem.

 

[PapaNoel]

I would say yes, go ahead and start HCG. You want to reverse shrinkage asap. Next time just start HCG by week 4-6 of any cycle or whenever you notice shrinkage occurring which is a good indicator of shut down.

- On longer term cycle pin 500iu every 3 days or 2x/wk for maintenance.

- During the last 3-6 weeks of the cycle AND while esters clear, crank the HCG up to 500iu EOD, OR I suppose 1000-1500iu every 3rd would be similarly efficacious (albeit with slightly more potential for sides) if EOD pinning is a problem.

I started it from day one bro but I dropped and broke a vial while me order for winstrol etc was coming and then came in glass ampules and then my ebay order for vials took forever
Already been doing eod twice now and they're firming up already

 

[Sharkweek]

Small update:

Today is the first day I have felt good in about 3 weeks. Next HCG pin is tomorrow. I will be out of town for a work trip on Tuesday, which is a planned HCG day, but will be back on Wednesday. Will the extra day in there make a big difference? I can pin Sunday morning to make it 3.5 days each way instead of 3 and 4 days? Does it even matter?

 

[PapaNoel]

One shot off one day won't matter, just pin on wednesday.

 

[Sharkweek]

As another small update here:

On 500mg of test e per week and 50mg of dbol/day my blood pressure was in the 140/100 range. Unsure what it was on Tren, but I'm guessing higher than that. Today it was 109/82. I'm down roughly 15 lbs since I came off. Planning to get bloodwork done again next week (roughly 2.5-3 weeks after last bloodwork). Hoping total test is up more.

I'm considering starting clomid to get my FSH going, so that sperm production can begin. I know that HCG can be suppressive to LH and FSH levels, but it also seems many doctors prescribe HCG and clomid together for fertility of TRT patients.

I would think that as long as test and estrogen levels are below natty levels that it would not be suppressive to the pituitary? I'm trying to understand what mechanism makes HCG suppressive? It seems to me that it would be the excess estrogen created.

 

[Argon Coagulator]

As another small update here:

On 500mg of test e per week and 50mg of dbol/day my blood pressure was in the 140/100 range. Unsure what it was on Tren, but I'm guessing higher than that. Today it was 109/82. I'm down roughly 15 lbs since I came off. Planning to get bloodwork done again next week (roughly 2.5-3 weeks after last bloodwork). Hoping total test is up more.

I'm considering starting clomid to get my FSH going, so that sperm production can begin. I know that HCG can be suppressive to LH and FSH levels, but it also seems many doctors prescribe HCG and clomid together for fertility of TRT patients.

I would think that as long as test and estrogen levels are below natty levels that it would not be suppressive to the pituitary? I'm trying to understand what mechanism makes HCG suppressive? It seems to me that it would be the excess estrogen created.

HCG is suppressive on it's own because it is essentially synthetic LH. Since you are now pinning synthetic LH, your natural LH production halts. Clomid with HCG together is a mistake as Clomid is ineffective when HCG is in the body. More learned or experienced doctors know this, despite some prescribing both together.