Proviron Question..

Also, this is the profile directly from the steroidology profiles page.

Proviron® (mesterolone)

Active Life: 8-12 hours (effects last about 24 hours)
Drug Class: Androgenic Steroid/Anti- Aromatization (Oral)
Average Dose: Men 25-100 mg/day.....Women 25-50 mg/day
Acne: Rare
Water Retention: No
High Blood Pressure: Rare
Liver Toxic: Low
Aromatization: None
DHT Conversion: No, it is a derivative of DHT
Decrease HPTA function: No


Proviron® is the Schering brand name for the oral androgen mesterolone (1 methyl-dihydrotestosterone). Just as with DHT, the activity of this steroid is that of a strong androgen which does not aromatize into estrogen. In clinical situations Proviron is generally used to treat various types of sexual dysfunction, which often result from a low endogenous testosterone level. It can usually reverse problems of sexual disinterest and impotency, and is sometimes used to increase the sperm count. The drug does not stimulate the body to produce testosterone, but is simply an oral androgen substitute that is used to compensate for a lack of the natural male androgen.

Although this steroid is strongly androgenic, the anabolic effect of it is considered too weak for muscle building purposes. This is due to the fact that Proviron is rapidly reduced to inactive metabolites in muscle tissue, a trait also characteristic of dihydrotestosterone. The belief that the weak anabolic nature of this compound indicated a tendency to block the androgen receptor in muscle tissue, thereby reducing the gains of other more potent muscle building steroids, should likewise not be taken seriously. In fact due to its extremely high affinity for plasma binding proteins such as SHBG, Proviron may actually work to increase the activity of other steroids by displacing a higher percentage into a free, unbound state. Among athletes Proviron is primarily used as an anti-estrogen. It is believed to act as an anti-aromatase in the body, preventing or slowing the conversion of steroids into estrogen. The result is somewhat comparable to Arimidex (though less profound), the drug acting to prevent the buildup of estrogen in the body. This is in direct contrast to Nolvadex, which only blocks the ability of estrogen to bind and activate receptors in certain tissues. The anti-aromatization effect is preferred, as it is a more direct and efficient means of dealing with the problem of estrogenic side effects. Another disadvantage of Nolvadex is that if discontinued too early, a rebound effect may occur as high serum estrogen levels are again free to take action. This of course could mean a rapid onset of side effects such as gynecomastia. Most actually prefer to use both Proviron and Nolvadex, especially during strongly estrogenic cycles. With each item attacking estrogen at a different angle, side effects are often greatly reduced.

The anti-estrogenic properties of Proviron are not unique to this compound. A number of steroids have in fact demonstrated similar activity. Dihydrotestosterone and Masteron (2methyl-dihydrotestosterone) for example have been successfully used as therapies for gynecomastia and breast cancer due to their strong anti-estrogenic effect. It has been suggested that nandrolone may even lower aromatase activity in peripheral tissues where it is more resistant to estrogen conversion (the most active site of nandrolone aromatization seems to be the liver). The anti-estrogenic effect of all of these compounds is presumably caused by their ability to compete with other substrates for binding to the aromatase enzyme. With the aromatase enzyme bound to the steroid, yet being unable to alter it, and inhibiting effect is achieved as it is temporarily blocked from interacting with other hormones.

This drug is also favored by many during contest preparations, when a lower estrogen/high androgen level is particularly sought after. This is especially beneficial when anabolics like Winstrol, oxandrolone and Primobolan are being used alone, as the androgenic content of these drugs is relatively low. Proviron can supplement a well needed androgen, and bring about an increase in the hardness and density of the muscles. Women in particular find a single 25mg tablet will efficiently shift the androgen/estrogen ratio, and can have a great impact on the physique. Since this is such a strong androgen however, extreme caution should be taken with administration. Higher dosages clearly have the potential to cause virilization symptoms quite readily. For this reason females will rarely take more than one tablet per day, and limit the length of intake to no longer than four or five weeks. One tablet used in conjunction with 10 or 20mg of Nolvadex can be even more efficient for muscle hardening, creating an environment where the body is much more inclined to burn off extra body fat (especially in female trouble areas like the hips and thighs).

The typical dosage for men is one to four 25 mg per tablets per day. This is a sufficient amount to prevent gynecomastia, the drug is often used throughout the entire cycle. As mentioned earlier, it is often combined with Nolvadex (tamoxifen citrate) or Clomid (clomiphene citrate) when heavily estrogenic steroids are being taken (Dianabol, testosterone etc.). Administering 50mg of Proviron and 20mg Nolvadex daily has proven extremely effective in such instances, and it is quite uncommon for higher dosages to be required. And just as we discussed for women, the androgenic nature of this compound is greatly welcome during contest preparation. Here again Proviron should noticeably benefit the hardness and density of the muscle, while at the same time increasing the tendency to burn off a greater amount of body fat. Proviron is usually well tolerated and side effects (men) are rare with dosages under 100 mg per day. Above this, one may develop an excessively high androgen level and encounter some problems. Typical androgenic side effects include oily skin, acne, body/facial hair growth and exacerbation of a male pattern baldness condition, and may occur even with the use of a moderate dosage. With the strong effect DHT has on the reproductive system, androgenic actions may also include an extreme heightening of male libido. And as discussed earlier, Women should be careful around Proviron. It is an androgen, and as such has the potential to produce virilization symptoms quite readily. This includes, of course, a deepening of the voice, menstrual irregularities, changes in skin texture and clitoral enlargement.

Proviron is also not a c17 alpha alkylated compound, an alteration commonly used with oral anabolic/androgenic steroids. Not using this structure in the case of Proviron removes the notable risk of liver toxicity we normally associate with oral drugs. It is therefore considered a "safe" oral, the user having no need to worry about serious complications with use. This steroid in fact utilizes the same 1-methylation we see present on Primobolan (methenolone), another well tolerated orally active compound. Alkylation at the one position also slows metabolism of the steroid during the first pass, although much less profoundly than 17 alpha alkylation. Likewise Proviron and Primobolan are resistant enough to breakdown to allow therapeutically beneficial blood levels to be achieved, although the overall bioavailability of these compounds is still much lower than methylated oral steroids.

The popularity of Proviron amongst bodybuilders has been increasing in recent years. Many experienced bodybuilders have in fact come to swear by it, incorporating it effectively in most markedly estrogenic cycles. Due to high demand Proviron is now very easy to obtain on the black market. Most versions will be manufactured by Schering, and should cost about $1-$2 per 25 mg tab. This drug is packaged in both push-through strips and small glass vials, so do not let this alarm you. There is currently no need to worry about authenticity with this drug, as no counterfeits are known to exist. If money and availability does not prevent it, Arimidex, Femara, or Aromasin ares actually a much better choice than Proviron though. These drugs were designed specifically as an anti-aromatase, and works much more effectively than anything else we have available.
 
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estray said:
You should really try it. Your significant other would appreciate it. It does wonders for the sex drive and allows you to dish out elephant sized servings of your kids. Alot of male adult movie actors use it.

trust me, the last thing my wife wants is an improvement in my sex drive, I wear her out as it is..... :)
 
I hear you Bouncer. However, I still haven't seen anything in this thread (or anywhere else) that provides any evidence that provirion 1) enhances the effects of other steroids; or 2) acts as an anti-estrogen.

There are no studies that prove either of these claims. I believe that the absence of any such studies is telling with regard to the estrogen issue, because Schering certainly has a financial incentive to show that proviron combats estrogen and therefore I submit that if it did act in this way, there would be emperical evidence that it does.

I don't know if Big Cat himself authored the profile that you quoted. I've seen it floating around for years. I am pretty well convinced that it mostly derives from folklore. I agree that Big Cat's more recent postings regarding proviron are not consistent with that profile.

Again, I like what proviron does for me. I definately perceive an increase in my sex drive. I took it on a recent vacation to Maui and really enjoyed the two-a-days 8 days in a row. :) I also seem to feel better overall. I also perceive a slightly harder appearance when I take 50 mgs. or more per day. Having said all that, I still don't think it is wise to advise anyone to use proviron to enhance the effect of other steroids (since if it does act like this at all, it is certainly not cost effective). Also, I think it is flat out dangerous to rely on proviron to combat estrogen.
 
Trevdog said:
I hear you Bouncer. However, I still haven't seen anything in this thread (or anywhere else) that provides any evidence that provirion 1) enhances the effects of other steroids; or 2) acts as an anti-estrogen.

There are no studies that prove either of these claims. I believe that the absence of any such studies is telling with regard to the estrogen issue, because Schering certainly has a financial incentive to show that proviron combats estrogen and therefore I submit that if it did act in this way, there would be emperical evidence that it does.

I don't know if Big Cat himself authored the profile that you quoted. I've seen it floating around for years. I am pretty well convinced that it mostly derives from folklore. I agree that Big Cat's more recent postings regarding proviron are not consistent with that profile.

Again, I like what proviron does for me. I definately perceive an increase in my sex drive. I took it on a recent vacation to Maui and really enjoyed the two-a-days 8 days in a row. :) I also seem to feel better overall. I also perceive a slightly harder appearance when I take 50 mgs. or more per day. Having said all that, I still don't think it is wise to advise anyone to use proviron to enhance the effect of other steroids (since if it does act like this at all, it is certainly not cost effective). Also, I think it is flat out dangerous to rely on proviron to combat estrogen.
I can agree that relying simply on proviron to combat estrogen would not be so wise. With that said though, I am convinced that it does have an effect on estrogen to some degree. You yourself noticed that you looked a little harder on it.

As far as the manufacture having a financial incentive to push it as an anti-e, well I don't think that is always the case. Take a look at clomid for example. We all know that clomid and nolvadex are almost identical in what they do. Yet one drug is marketed for totally different things then the other.
 
not sure how relevant this is. but i got puffy nipples on my first cycle of ICN's. they have their good looking days, and bad days. i'm on masteron now, and they have a more pleasing look to them than they normally do.
 
estray said:
Thats not true. Ive got studies that show you can run it at 150mg a week for weeks on end without any effect on HPTA. Only at doses over 350mg week does it start to have an effect after a few months.
Let's put this myth to bed right now...proviron will inhibit you HPTA from recovering if one is taking it DURING PCT. The studies you're talking about are on individuals who are taking it solo not people cycling different Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) and attempting to recover their HPTA post cycle.
 
What's up Bouncer, I just now rec'd your PM. I don't MOD here anymore ... have not for years. Good to see a lot of ya ;)

It certainly WILL help with gyno issues (prevention) to a degree, albeit I would not use it as a stand-alone. It works differently than the other AI's and SERMS as its mechanism of action is mediated directly via/thru DHT expression (which DOES adversely effect estrogen/diol formation contrary to what seems to be popular belief here). This has been proven time and time again in medicine as gynecomastia has been successfully treated with percutaneous dihydrotestosterone gel. What's that tell you? It is obviously not as effective as AI's and SERMS on the Aromatase enzyme and related pathways.

Anti-Estrogen Effects Of DHT

One important function of DHT in the body that does not get much discussion is its antagonism of estrogen. Some men that take Proscar learn this the hard way—by developing a case of gynecomastia. By reducing DHT's protection against estrogen in the body, these men have fallen victim to its most dreaded ramification-bitch tits.

How does DHT protect against estrogen? There are at least three ways that this likely occurs. First of all, DHT directly inhibits estrogens activity on tissues. It either does this by acting as a competitive antagonist to the estrogen receptor or by decreasing estrogen-induced RNA transcription at a point subsequent to estrogen receptor binding.

Second of all, DHT and its metabolites have been shown to directly block the production of estrogens from androgens by inhibiting the activity of the aromatase enzyme. The studies done in breast tissue showed that DHT, androsterone, and 5alpha-androstandione are potent inhibitors of the formation of estrone from androstenedione. 5alpha-androstandione was shown to be the most potent, while androsterone was the least.

Lastly, DHT acts on the hypothalamus/pituitary to decrease the secretion of gonadotropins. By decreasing the secretion of gonadotropins you decrease the production of the raw materials for estrogen production testosterone and androstenedione (DHT itself cannot aromatize into estrogens). This property of DHT comes into particular utility when it is administered exogenously, and this is to be discussed in further detail in the next section.

I do not concur with everything in the article (some things mentined are mentioned "loosely") however, it is well-written and hammers down most points.

Proviron vs an AI/SERM for estrogen control: There are two ways to skin a cat. Well, would you rather skin a cat with a samurai sword or a butter knife? Both will work, but why choose the butter knife?That's the difference IMO with respect to estrogen control.

As it is with everything else, ALL things (hormonal) have different manifestations in the body dependent on the individual's genetically programmed make-up (as well as a myriad of other variables that would include endogenous hormonal profiles at the time, amongst others) - so -- Proviron may in fact work well for you while at the same time do nothing for others.

I disagree with some comments in the thread regarding its lack of effects on SHBG. It's been proven time and time again that it does bind and does so effectively. I still got luv for though Trevdog :)

I do not like the drug for a drug-of-choice for gyno and I'd only rate it a 3 out of 10 for effectiveness. There are certainly better choices (as you already know).

One thing NOT mentioned which also goes against the drug is its 1-aa chemical structure. I have posted threads sevral times that although only a mild threat would be present, it certainly does have hepatic toxification "potential". With all the other drugs BBer's use, it would be wise to avoid it for this reason alone IMO (unless you are looking to use it for libido enhancement -but then there's always Dostinex - a personal favorite)

What I am trying to relay is if you are going to TAX your liver, save it for a drug like dbol/drol/winny,etc.....

Why tax the liver with a drug that has little anti-estrogen effects, minimal ""anabolic"" effects (I DO concede that the drugs does a good job of eradicating water/adding hardness) and has a mild (potential) hepatotoxic profile (despite what anyone tells you!!)

CYA
 
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Drveejay11 said:
What's up Bouncer, I just now rec'd your PM. I don't MOD here anymore ... have not for years. Good to see a lot of ya ;)

It certainly WILL help with gyno issues (prevention) to a degree, albeit I would not use it as a stand-alone. It works differently than the other AI's and SERMS as its mechanism of action is mediated directly via/thru DHT expression (which DOES adversely effect estrogen/diol formation contrary to what seems to be popular belief here). This has been proven time and time again in medicine as gynecomastia has been successfully treated with percutaneous dihydrotestosterone gel. What's that tell you? It is obviously not as effective as AI's and SERMS on the Aromatase enzyme and related pathways.



I do not concur with everything in the article (some things mentined are mentioned "loosely") however, it is well-written and hammers down most points.

Proviron vs an AI/SERM for estrogen control: There are two ways to skin a cat. Well, would you rather skin a cat with a samurai sword or a butter knife? Both will work, but why choose the butter knife?That's the difference IMO with respect to estrogen control.

As it is with everything else, ALL things (hormonal) have different manifestations in the body dependent on the individual's genetically programmed make-up (as well as a myriad of other variables that would include endogenous hormonal profiles at the time, amongst others) - so -- Proviron may in fact work well for you while at the same time do nothing for others.

I disagree with some comments in the thread regarding its lack of effects on SHBG. It's been proven time and time again that it does bind and does so effectively. I still got luv for though Trevdog :)

I do not like the drug for a drug-of-choice for gyno and I'd only rate it a 3 out of 10 for effectiveness. There are certainly better choices (as you already know).

One thing NOT mentioned which also goes against the drug is its 1-aa chemical structure. I have posted threads sevral times that although only a mild threat would be present, it certainly does have hepatic toxification "potential". With all the other drugs BBer's use, it would be wise to avoid it for this reason alone IMO (unless you are looking to use it for libido enhancement -but then there's always Dostinex - a personal favorite)

What I am trying to relay is if you are going to TAX your liver, save it for a drug like dbol/drol/winny,etc.....

Why tax the liver with a drug that has little anti-estrogen effects, minimal ""anabolic"" effects (I DO concede that the drugs does a good job of eradicating water/adding hardness) and has a mild (potential) hepatotoxic profile (despite what anyone tells you!!)

CYA
Thanks Drveejay, great help as always.

Would it be correct to say that while it is not as effective as Nolv or Letro for gyno it still has it place. It can do things that Nolv or Letro cannot, such as enhancing the anabolic effect on testosterone.

While I do agree with the points you made about the effects on the liver, I also disagree to a point. Proviron is kind of an all in one drug. Helps with estrogen, enhances gains on test, has a fat burning/harding effect.. etc. Its effect on the liver will be MUCH less then that of a 17-aa. IMO it is worth it if you want to run a mild injection/oral stack.
 
THE BOUNCER said:
Would it be correct to say that while it is not as effective as Nolv or Letro for gyno it still has it place.

Yes. For some, it will actually serve as a nice dual-purposed adjunct to a cycle.

It can do things that Nolv or Letro cannot, such as enhancing the anabolic effect on testosterone.

Yes. For whatever reason, Proviron as of late seems to have gotten unwarranted "bad press". I am paranoid about most things health wise so I avoid it b/c of the slight potential for some hepatotixicity that I would rather avoid. That being said, the majority of users will probably never experience such ill-effects. It's simply precautionary on my part.


While I do agree with the points you made about the effects on the liver, I also disagree to a point. Proviron is kind of an all in one drug. Helps with estrogen, enhances gains on test, has a fat burning/harding effect.. etc. Its effect on the liver will be MUCH less then that of a 17-aa. IMO it is worth it if you want to run a mild injection/oral stack.


You are correct. Comparing a 17-aa to a 1-aa is like comparing a machine gun to a pistol. But remember, they can both kill ya. It is highly unlikely that anyone on these boards will die from "1-aa abuse" (Oral Primobolan, Proviron, etc). However, it would be iresponsible NOTto mention the possibility of such leading to an undesirable (latent) effect.

So I am clear. I am an advocate of Proviron use for all aforementioned reasons. I only persoanlly avoid the stuff anymore b/c I err on teh side of extreme caution with regard to health anymore. No more orals, no more crazy cycles, no more "mildly" liver toxic substances (yes, that includes binge drinking). As I get older, certain things (oral gear, etc) just arent worth the risk and possible ill-effects later in life.

Good to see ya Bouncer. Be good man. :)



Disclaimer: I would like to personally thank DaDawg for his permission to use the above-mentioned analogies. They provided me the impact I needed to make my points in the two posts. Thank you you big homo :spank:

.
 
Drveejay11 said:
Yes. For some, it will actually serve as a nice dual-purposed adjunct to a cycle.



Yes. For whatever reason, Proviron as of late seems to have gotten unwarranted "bad press". I am paranoid about most things health wise so I avoid it b/c of the slight potential for some hepatotixicity that I would rather avoid. That being said, the majority of users will probably never experience such ill-effects. It's simply precautionary on my part.





You are correct. Comparing a 17-aa to a 1-aa is like comparing a machine gun to a pistol. But remember, they can both kill ya. It is highly unlikely that anyone on these boards will die from "1-aa abuse" (Oral Primobolan, Proviron, etc). However, it would be iresponsible NOTto mention the possibility of such leading to an undesirable (latent) effect.

So I am clear. I am an advocate of Proviron use for all aforementioned reasons. I only persoanlly avoid the stuff anymore b/c I err on teh side of extreme caution with regard to health anymore. No more orals, no more crazy cycles, no more "mildly" liver toxic substances (yes, that includes binge drinking). As I get older, certain things (oral gear, etc) just arent worth the risk and possible ill-effects later in life.

Good to see ya Bouncer. Be good man. :)



Disclaimer: I would like to personally thank DaDawg for his permission to use the above-mentioned analogies. They provided me the impact I needed to make my points in the two posts. Thank you you big homo :spank:

.
thanks for the help bro, the machine gun to a pistol part is pretty good!

stay in touch man. :)
 
Drveejay11 said:
I disagree with some comments in the thread regarding its lack of effects on SHBG. It's been proven time and time again that it does bind and does so effectively. I still got luv for though Trevdog :)


Thanks man. :)

I don't doubt that proviron binds tightly to SHBG. However, although in threory this *should* "make test more effective" by freeing up more test from the bound state - I do not believe that the theory translates into real life results. In Big Cat's quote above, he offered a possible explanation for this - as more test is freed up, the body simply compensates for it by excreting more test.

I have used proviron with test several times and never perceived that I gained more from the test when I used proviron.

I have never seen anyone else specifically say that they perceived such a difference - although I've seen countless posts about people using proviron hoping to achieve this effect. When people get better results from test, invariably it is because they are using more test than they did in the past - can anyone really disagree?

Can anyone honestly say that, for example, they gained more weight and/or strength on a given dose of test when they added proviron? I doubt it.

And consider this - how much proviron are you going to be able to buy for the price of another 250-500 mgs. of test per week? My point is, IF you buy into the theory that proviron enhances a test cycle (and you're making a quantum leap to do so), you will certainly get 20 times more "bang for your buck" by spending your money on more test than you will by spending it on proviron. Conclusion - proviron does not give you more bang for your buck by freeing up test from the bound state.
 
Why might Proviron reduce symptoms of gynecomastia?

Because such symptoms are not strictly cause by estrogen alone, but by this ratio:

xTestosterone + y(DHT) + z
---------------------------
Estrogens

Where x and y are unknown numbers but close to each other. z represents other stuff, perhaps/probably including Proviron itself.

The ratio explains by many men will use a 5alpha reductase inhibitor and get gyno. The estrogen in their body didn't change, but the DHT dropped. Suddenly, the estrogens in the body were more "prominent" for lack of a better term.

Remember that Proviron is androgenic ... it is just that it gets converted in the muscle, making it itself useless for the effect within muscle tissue.

I've come to the same conclusion as trevdog, although with new information I will always reconsider. If I have too much testosterone bound to SHBG, then it is much cheaper for me to simply inject more testosterone than it is to use Proviron.
 
trevdog and mranak, you guys both make good points.

one thing that we can all agree on is that more test is obviously better in terms of pure mass gain. BUT, more test wont give you the same look as the test and proviron combo. you will stay harder and leaner while still putting on the same amount of muscle.

trevdog, i have heard many people say they love the test/proviron combo. i dont think anyone will say they gained more weight on the test/proviron combo. what you will hear is that they gained alot of muscle mass while avoiding a bloated/fatty look.
 
I agree. I remember the first time I ran proviron and test together. I remember enjoying sex more than ever before.

Also, as I said before, if the proviron works to prevent gyno for you - it works. It doesn't really matter if a study shows it works, you're getting what you want.
 
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