Read this thread if you already haven't!

TRUE!!! I have seen MANY so called bodybuilders JUICE HARD and get nothing but water retention and ZITS!! Some even get SUPER-AGGRESSIVE!! They think they are eating CLEAN, eating Healthy Choice dinners and chicken soft taco's from Taco Bell!!! NUTRITION WILL MAKE YOU OR BREAK YOU!!!!!!:cool:
Ah the infamous "cycles on pennies" thread...a good read indeed, but plann ahead, you will doing ALOT of reading...

I copied & pasted the entire thing to word it is over 300pgs long in


i started reading this in august and doggcrap has a huge influence on my training and diet. I don't follow his exact split because I lift in my basement and don't have access to a leg press machine, hacksquat, hammer chest, etc, etc. So i make due with what i have, and rest pause out everything, do extreme stretching, and eat a fuckload of food(protein). [/B][/QUOTE]
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yeah, i was bored (reeeeally bored, lol) one day and went through and found what i thought were the important points and copied and pasted them on to word. Its still 18 pages long, though and everytime i go back to that thread i find something new to put in.
InPieces03 said:
yeah, i was bored (reeeeally bored, lol) one day and went through and found what i thought were the important points and copied and pasted them on to word. Its still 18 pages long, though and everytime i go back to that thread i find something new to put in.

I know I could go and copy and paste like you did, but if you wouldn't mind could you send me what you already have in word?
ok first I have to go over some principles I believe in first regarding training and Ill go to work and hit more on the training later on.
a) I believe he who makes the greatest strength gains (in a controlled fashion)as a bodybuilder, makes the greatest muscle gains--note: i said strength gains--everyone knows someone naturally strong who can bench 400 yet isnt that big. Going from a beginning 375 bench to 400 isnt that great of a strength gain and wont result in much of a muscle gain. But if i show you someone who went from 150 to 400 on a benchpress, that guy will have about 2.5 inches more of muscle thickness on his pecs. That is an incredible strength gain and will equal out into an incredible muscle gain

b) I havent seen a guy who can squat 500 for 20 reps, bench press 500 for 15 and deadlift 500 for 15 who was small yet ---but I have seen alot and i mean alot of people in the gym and on these forums that are a buck 65 or two and change--shouting that you dont have to lift heavy to get big. (in an extremely rare case you will see a naturally strong powerlifter who has to curb calories to stay in a weight class and that is the reason he doesnt get bigger)

c)training is all about adaption--in simple terms you lift a weight and your muscle has one of 2 choices--either tear completely under the load (which is incredibly rare and what we dont want)or the muscle lifts the weight and protects itself by remodeling and getting bigger to protect itself against the load (next time). If the weight gets heavier--the muscle has to again remodel and get bigger again to handle it. You can superset, superslow, giant set, pre exhaust all day long but the infinite adaption is load---meaning heavier and heavier weights is the only infinite thing you can do in your training. Intensity is finite. Volume is finite (or infinite if you want to do 9000 sets per bodypart)...everything else is finite. The Load is infinite and heavier and heavier weights used(I DONT GIVE A SHIT WHAT SOME BUCK 58 POUND GURU SAYS)will make the biggest bodybuilder. (add high protein, glutamine and drugs to the mix and you have one large person)

d) The largest pro bodybuilders in the last 10 years (outside of Paul Dillett who is a genetic alien and I think could grow off of mowing lawns) are also the very strongest-(kovacs, prince, coleman, yates, francois, nasser (although he trains lighter now) For anyone who argues that they have seen so and so bodybuilder and he trains light---well I will bet you he isnt gaining rapid size anymore and that his greatest size increases were when he was going for his pro card and he was training shit heavy. He will convince himself and others that he is "making the best gains of his career" though cuz noone likes to think what they are presently doing isnt working and they are running in place do they.... Sadly heavy drug use can make up for alot of training fallacies.

e) Please think of the times when you make the best size gains---the first time is in the first 2 years of lifting WHEN YOU MAKE YOUR BEST STRENGTH GAINS TOO! then things start to slow down. Whats the next time? You start using steroids and boom what happens? YOUR TRAINING WEIGHTS GO FLYING UP. And you get dramatically bigger-(im taking into effect protein assimilation, recovery etc also). The greatest strength gains you make will result in also the most rapid size gains. (if your taking in the protein requirements of a 12 year old girl scout then you can discount yourself from the above group)
I beleive in Powerbuilding not bodybuilding--using techniques that build the most strength gains in the fastest time possible while using the most effective exercises for that person. I am positive I could take 2 twins--have one do his own thing training wise, but do the same drugs and nutrition as the twin I train......come back a year later and the twin I trained would have 25lbs more muscle
f)Ive seen powerlifters (who catch alot of guff from bodybuilders for being "fat") diet down and come in and destroy bodybuilders in bodybuilding shows time and time again. Over and over. Powerlifters and Powerbodybuilders are by far the thickest guys onstage when and if they decide to enter bodybuilding shows.
g) heavy is relative--it doesnt mean 3 reps --- it means as heavy as you can go on that exercise no matter if it is 5 reps or 50 reps. I personally like to do hack squats for 20 reps but I use about 6 plates on each side rock bottom--thats as heavy as I can go on that exercise for 20 reps. I could do sets of 6 and probaly use maybe 8 or 9 plates a side but my legs (and most people I train) grow best from heavy and 15-50 reps.
so now you guys know i believe in the heaviest training possible (safely)--ok i got to go to work--

Mondo I find 9.5 out of 10 times that someone stops gaining its his diet that is the problem. Eight out of 10 times that same lifter wrongly thinks he is overtraining or his workouts are off. The other 2 out of 10 times that person thinks his supplements or 'juice' is the problem. I keep trying to brainwash people SUPPLY AND DEMAND, SUPPLY AND DEMAND--if you can make a demand (hard enough training) you can meet the supply (abundance of protein grams). I love when people come to me with this problem of not making gains anymore and they go thru this intricate workout, supplement, and sauce fix and all i say is "double the serving size on all your protein drinks and make sure the post workout drink is 100grams at least." Boom! they take off gaining again. I know you don't know me from adam but trust me on this one. Food (protein) is your anabolic. Anyone in this forum who is at a true stalemate, I ask you to try 500 grams a day of protien for 6 months and then come back in here and tell me what you look like. Training is the engine, food (protein) is the gasoline and juice is the Nitrous oxide system. Mondo i would say hit 2 grams per lb of bodyweight that you want to be=500grams. That could be about 200-250 in protein drink grams and you can easily eat the rest

Well if your not meeting your energy requirements some of the protein your ingesting is going to be used as a fuel source. I like omega-3's (flaxseeds) and extra virgin olive oils (mono unsaturated fat)--118 calories per tablespoon. I throw 2-3 tablespoons in my morning and afternoon shakes but not in the post workout or bedtime ones (self explanatory). Go slow with olive oil or you will be seatbelting yourself to the toilet the first couple days. As far as diet I am like Palumbo in that aspect...I like high protein, moderate (good) fats and low to moderate carbs..I eat the amount of protein grams I want to ingest first and if its before 6-7pm I satisfy the rest of my hunger with carbs. If I go to mcdonalds I'll blast as many hamburgers as I can and skip the fries. (laughing) but true. After 6-7pm I will go high protein and trace to low carbs (example huge steak and alot of a vegetable but no rice, pasta or bread). This is the way I have found thru trial and error that I can keep myself and people I train fairly lean but still have them gaining at the highest rate. Im sorry im not a calorie counter at all. Im a protein gram counter. I weigh myself and others once a month on the same scale and if they are not gaining I already know they are on high protein so I fix the problem with added mono unsat's (olive oil), flaxseeds and some extra carbs here or there. I trained a 188 lb (former cornerback-NFL only one year) and got him up to 232 and then he stopped gaining. I tried everything to get him going again but after his protein intake I just couldnt get him to put enough food down the hatch. And I really got on his ass about it too. He was burning up every thing. He loved ice cream and I said fuck it--get your protein in but pound down 1/2 gallon to a gallon a day before 6pm--he did and very quickly after that shot up up to 265 or so (with striations everywhere still). Moral of the story? I got no idea--dont follow that method.

Yes but I am a firm believer in using cardio to take off bodyfat than screwing with the diet that built you all that muscle. I see the main problem of unsuccessfull precontest bodybuilders is they drastically change their diet that made them a huge bodybuilder in the first place. Its almost like a panic comes over them. These are the guys you see walking around huge offseason and show up at contests like scarecrows and losing 30lbs of muscle along the way. I like people to stay with the diet, but unlike in offseason to be real strict with it at night(i.e. low to trace carbs after 6-7pm as stated previously). Combined with the low to trace carbs after 6-7pm I have them do 45 minutes of cardio upon awakening (with fat burning compounds)and that works for almost every single person like a charm. In the rare case (hasnt happened yet)that it doesnt work for someone--I will make the low carb phase one hour earlier (5pm)--I havent had a problem yet getting anyone shredded so until I do theres not much more I can say....In my opinion the most important thing to do is not to panic and radically change your diet! Your continued training and eating like it is in the offseason is what is going to keep every iota of muscle that you have built on you...let cardio do its work and take the bodyfat off of you.

i.e. I wonder what something ike animal's animalbolics and this type of training and drug protocal would produce?????

Doggcrapp: I really dont know the answer to that question. I havent tried it.

I feel the worst diet is the diet that someone cant stand to be on and their pissed because they cant eat something. If I am training them (dieting wise) the 45 minute cardio is mandatory(no exceptions) -the low to trace carbs after 6-7pm is mandatory (no exceptions) but if they want chocolate chip cookies or ice cream or something to that effect I tell them to blast it, eat as many cookies as you can possiblly eat so you dont crave it for at least two weeks. They can do that if they follow my two rules--1)they have to gulp down a protein drink before eating anything like that. 2) it has to be before 6pm. I do this for two reasons--mentally for their spirits and two probaly for my peace of mind--I have it stuck in my head that the body strives for homeostasis at all times and losing bodyfat is a war - I like to think I am tricking the body into thinking its not on a diet---and boom before it knows what hit it-6pm comes around/glycogen stores gradually utilized for rest of the night and during sleep and POW 45 minutes of cardio first thing in morning (rest of diminished glycogen stores and then bodyfat)

I am under the opinion of "if it aint broke dont fix it"---meaning what you did training and protein wise to be a huge bodybuilder in the offseason will keep you being a huge bodybuilder in a contest. I like people to train heavy still (at a safe rep range) and keep their protein high (with low carbs at nite) and let the cardio and supplements take the fat off. Im sorry to be so simple but an hour of cardio in the morning upon arising 16 weeks out (# of weeks depending on your bodyfat) with whatever fat burning compound/s you want to use (usnic acid, ECA, or clen etc, etc) during the day is going to get you shredded. Severely changing your diet, panicking, being obsessive/compulsive with precontest cardio etc is the surefire way of coming in flat, catabolized and a shadow of what you should be up there. (I trained a guy a couple years back who wanted to compete ---he was a hard 287lbs and I told him he wasnt ready (he had just gotten up to 287lbs--I brought him up from the 240's...but I felt he needed to get some of his weaker bodyparts up--calves, more back width)--he wanted me to train him for the show but I refused and he was pissed. He went for it on his own and this guy was so obsessive compulsive he ate tuna or chicken and rice 4-5 times a day and cardio 2-3 times a day for 45 minutes to an hour for his whole precontest. He weighed in at 206lbs onstage (206!!!) he was 287 fairly hard in offseason. I shouldnt even have to say he got smoked--finishing 13th I believe out of 16 competitors. I feel if he had his head on straight he could of come in at 237 to 242lbs and done much better (still no calves)---I like to see people get inside out-- just nasty shredded 14 days out and cruise in---

....In the simplest terms--no matter what way you train--if you are way stronger than last year, 6 months ago, 3 months ago, last month, last week you are getting continually bigger no doubt about it.

3)Watching, Listening, and observing. Science has it's place in everything but I am unimpressed that many times it doesn't prove out. At one time scientists said steroids were useless. Dball on paper doesnt look like it would do great things but it does. We have drugs that on paper look like they would be the godsend and really dont do jack. Hyperplasia has been talked about for years now--science cant come up with a training or drug protocol for it. Look at Animal he has disproven with his many kits (removing estrogen from synovex) and number of mg trenbolone per cc in his fina kits---what science said couldnt be done! So I give science some virtue but I put a huge amount of weight in "power of numbers"--I dont care what so called expert or psuedo scientist says, if 198 out of 200 bodybuilders says "this stuff works" i go with that! HMB, lutalyse, etc were highly touted on paper--the bottom line is a huge percentage of bodybuilders said "they suck!"---Ill go with that science. With that said, I started observing what all the people out there training who werent making any gains compared to all the people out there who were making gains. The people using lighter weights and eating 3-4 times a day were the exact same year after year after year. Sadly as you get bigger, other elite bodybuilders gravitate toward you whereas when you are a peon they dont even give you a second look. This happened to me...I started to get much larger from coming to the conclusions heavy weights and large amounts of protein are the fast track way of doing things. Soon alot of the bigger bodybuilders in the area were asking me some questions. Shortly after that a guy name Donnie Lemiuex who was Mr Massachusetts twice (also way up there in the AAU Universe, and pretty much won everything on the east coast for awhile) and I started talking. He sure didnt start out the strongest guy around but he ended up being by far the strongest bodybuilder I knew of in that area and hence also by far the largest. You start talking to that elite guy and then this one and soon your talking to a bunch of pros and top amateurs. I started taking in common aspects to their dieting and training. Awhile after that I got to talking to guys like Tom Prince, Phil Hernon, Vic Richards, Curtis Leffler, Jimmy Mentis and a slew of top amateurs (some who are now pro). These guys by and large were eating huge amounts of protein and training with incredibly heavy weights. Theres a monopoly of bodybuilders out there who are taking a boatload of drugs yet eat 150grams of protein a day and squat with 225lbs and they are getting nowhere.

Along with that I thought, how can I eat the most amount of protein and not get fat as hell (like I was doing in the beginning) and what happens to others who do that.....the answer was curb carbs back after 5-6pm... Third for me was which supplements actually work and which are a waste of money. Fourth for me was the 4 on 2 cruising so you could gain at an optimal rate and try to keep the hpta in check....Just my theories no more no less---hell if someone comes up with a better method than the 4+2 that looks feasible to me, Ill be the first to jump on it... (this is getting long I better shut up)

Im not a great fan of dropsets, I personally like to see people rest pause out heavy weights instead of dropping weight off the bar so they can do reps. I believe Trevor and Duvall are very large people because they both use back breaking weights in their training (especially Trevor)---our theories are somewhat similiar--a) low volume b)use heavy slag iron to failure and then go beyond that (he does it with dropsets and I do it with rest pauses)---in my quest to forever get stronger(bigger), in my opinion dropping weight off the bar so I can do reps is not going to make me 'personally' stronger. Hence I use rest pauses (I should state I have my own way of restpausing which is a higher rep range than someone like Mentzer and Yates use to advocate). Mentzer I believe used to rest pause singles out which I think can be incredibly dangerous. Back to the subject: Trevor is a good guy and I believe Duvall is looking so incredible this year (from what Ive heard)because Trevor has him using heavier weights than Matt has ever handled. Again I say: pick your poison--either of our training is going to rough

Lets say "John Smith" is a 275lb bodybuilder holding 16% bodyfat in the offseason. He is smooth but his heavy training and high protein eating have made it possible for his body to hold 275lbs with probaly an ideal contest weight of 226-234lbs or so. Since his present diet is allowing him to hold a "hypothetical" 230lbs of lean mass, what do you think is going to happen on a "cutting diet"....oh he will get ripped but probaly at a 60-40 or 70-30 bodyfat to muscle mass ratio loss. My opinion is to leave the training heavy (more on that when I answer densitys post) and leave the diet 90% what it is. The only changes I would make are to be religiously strict with low/trace carbs after 6pm and drop dairy 6 weeks out. Let the cardio take off your bodyfat! Forty five minutes at a slightly brisk walk on a treadmill first thing in the morning on an empty stomach--on every day except leg days will do it. Add in maybe usnic acid and a thermogenic and your going to end up inside out shredded. Thats from a bodybuilding standpoint as I hate seeing someone gain 15lbs of muscle from training so hard in the offseason just to panic diet it all off trying to get ripped. In a general everyday sense for people who dont care about losing 8-20lbs of muscle mass on their way down to leaness,--cardio and a cutting diet will work faster for them.

So Woody you personally know all 483 or so pro bodybuildrs in this world? Woody I am not going to start naming names here of competitors I know or have known as thats namedropping and stupid but I know alot are right at the 5500-6500 range and some are right around where I am and some are beyond me. I am a extreme ectomorphic person and I have had to eat my way up to 290lbs. At this weight I am not shredded (who would be at 290?)but can see the line down the middle of my abs and the top row of abs also. But again who the hell cares?!?! Thats not what this post is about-- I talk about superheavyweights alot because thats where I am at. Of course smaller guys and people with incredible genetics eat less. We arent talking about people with incredible muscle building genetics are we? Do you think someone like Instynct is ever going to need my help? Fuck no! That guy at 5'7 can weigh 261lbs offseason fairly hard. Thats amazing and thats amazing genetics on top of hard work. Im just trying to help people who have been lifting 3-6 years who noone comes up and asks them "are you a bodybuilder"--those are the people who could use my help.

A precontest diet--wow great!!! Thats really going to put muscle on the members of this forum! Lets all hear how they dieted down so we can put gobs of muscle on....Dont forget to put Duffy's 1-2 sustanon a day and mega anadrol stack in there too ok...John Sherman (smaller pro I wouldnt doubt he eats much as he hasnt gained a pound since he got his pro card)--next Paul Demayo (from Boston where I am from)-first show he ever did I believe at 20 years old he weighed 238lbs!!! When you have genetics like that to build muscle you dont have to go the extra mile with diet---from that time till the time he turned pro (many, many years)he only gained about18 more lbs of muscle onstage! That sucks for a muscle gain with that guys genetics! Just think what he could of done with proper eating... Does Joe Mcneal take credit for that paltry muscle gain? Flex used him for that one show and hasnt used him since...why? And I cant even believe you brought up Chris Duffy--this guy was a Mcdonalds and Burger King maniac in the offseason and everyone knows it.....Tom Prince told me about Joe Mcneal-he has a great repuatation in South Florida FOR A PRECONTEST COACH!!! -I believe Mike Ashley has used him in the past too--hes great for precontest---what the hell does a precontest coach have to do with building muscle?!?!?! NOTHING!!! ABSOLUTELY NOTHING! They tell you what to eat and how to cardio when dieting down for a show. Putting major amounts of muscle on people is the hardest thing to do in this sport bar none...I really dont care about precontest coaches--they are a dime a dozen. I sure as hell dont want to be known as a percontest coach--Duchaine was and he had no idea how to put muscle on people besides drugs. I want to be known only for a guy who can put alot of muscle mass on people who thought they couldnt get there. Now if you want to talk about Chad Nichols and Jon Parillo and some other good coaches who put alot of muscle on people --then we have a discussion.

One last thing--I believe anyone in this forum can turn their bodies into high protein-food processing machines. In fact I dont know of a better legal anabolic than hitting twice your bodyweight with protein grams over a definite amount of time. The difference is I have always had a very tough time gaining weight and I have to keep cardio episodes to 2 or less times a week to gain weight. Someone else in this forum who wants to build muscle on "the fast track" can get their 500 grams of protein in (along with moderate carbs and good fats) but might have to do a slight moderate cardio 2-6 times a week to keep lean. Again like recovery ability, I dont generalize and put people all in one boat. An endomorph and ectomorph who have the exact same muscle building genetic potential will not have the exact same bodyfat genetics....while each might have to take in 450grams of protein to build muscle at an optimal rate, the endomorph is going to probaly have to hit the treadmill- walking 4 times a week. I would much rather have people do things that way than curb back food (protein) intake to keep lean

But Woody Im talking about the most rapid accumalation of muscle mass possible while trying to keep bodyfat in check------------im going to give you some observations as Ive been around this sport for a long time and seen too many competitors and what they do--and you can do what you want with it

1)Ive seen black guys gain bigtime muscle eating the crappiest diets in the world and the most half ass workouts you would ever see due to their incredible genetics

2)I havent seen a black guy yet with incredible genetics who didnt have to eventually boatload the food to get above that 260lb mark and into the superhuge pro 300lbs plus range (vic richards, ronnie coleman etc(8000-10000 calories a day as per his interview in latest musclemag intl)

3)ive seen a million and one bodybuilders with good genetics get into the 210-230LB (stripper look) range with nutrient dense 2800 calorie diets and heavy drugs but then top out at that 210-230lb range (and not know why they cant get any bigger)

4)Ive seen people with incredible genetics build muscle on 200-250 grams of protein a day (nasser el sonbaty, flex wheeler, paul dillet and some other incredibly gifted pros --remember i said gifted PROS)

5)The people out there who have incredible genetics are so very few and far between its pathetic

6)Ive seen millions of people training for years eating squeaky clean nutrient dense low volume food diets with average genetics who never get bigger--ever

7)ive seen superheavy powerlifters who gain alot of bodyfat with muscle in the offseason, diet down and CRUSH everyone in their area in bodybuilding shows

Ive never seen a white elite bodybuilder with slightly above mediocre genetics get superhuge without boatloading protein in the 500 and upward gram range (jimmy mentis, I also put Greg Kovacs in here as he isnt even close to colemans or wheelers genetics, kamali, palumbo, mike francois etc)

9)Ive seen too many bodybuilders who are stuck at the same size and think the problem is their drugs, their training, everything else except their diet.

10) Nine out of ten times when i help someone who is stuck as a bodybuilder--getting their protein grams up to 500 from the 280 or so they were eating sends them into muscle accumalation overdrive.

11) Very rarely have I seen a person who could stay incredibly shredded in the offseason and gain bigtime muscle at the same time (and again the only ones Ive seen do it are black guys)

12)ive seen alot of natural guys who eat incredibly clean all year long put on 1-2LBS of muscle a year (great in 5 years they will be 5-10lbs heavier)

13)Thinking off the top of my head I cannot think of a over 250lb bodybuilder onstage who eats less than 400 grams of protein except nasser el sonbaty (who by the way hasnt gotten any larger for about 5 years) and Dillett

14)How many millions of bodybuilders with average genetics are using the same drugs, training the same way as each other and eating 200 grams of protein a day--alot!!! How many of those guys have 4lbs of muscle per inch of height?

15) Some years ago a study was done on sumo wrestlers, elite bodybuilders, and a untrained group of people trying to determine the upper limit of lean body mass in a human being. The sumo's while having the greatest bodyfat percentage also had the greatest lean body mass above the elite bodybuilders and way above the untrained. Why? Sumo's for the most part dont weight train but eat excess amounts of rice and fish...shouldnt they have less LBM than the elite bodybuilders? How are they developing that kind of muscle mass if they are not weight training to get it? Obviously some kind of adaption is taking place with the excess food intake allowing for great amounts of muscle mass. What would happen if they took the precautions to keep their bodyfat in check with cardio day and night?

I personally am an overkill guy---I would much rather maybe take in too much protein and excrete the excess than worry about taking in inadequate amounts of protein and losing out on muscle mass I would of gained and wasting these workouts (that Im killing myself with)---I'd rather use cardio and low/trace carbs after 6pm to keep my bodyfat levels in check than be safe and take in 2500 calories and worry about half filled glycogen stores or worse yet catabolism of muscle. My mindset is to turn someone into a machine--heavy weights, high protein, filled glycogen stores, use the treadmill to solve the excess--it sure as hell isnt easy but its the fastest way Ive found to get someone from point A to point B. And woody if you think a 6 foot 170lb man with average genetics can turn himself into a 6 foot 300lb superheavyweight bodybuilder on 2500 calories a day, and 200 grams of protein a day your sadly misinformed. You can look at world class powerlifters in the lower (under 200lb)classes. They are lifting shit heavy, many are using boatloads of drugs, why the hell arent they getting dramatically bigger if thats all thats needed? Food thats why. Now you put a superheavy 360lb powerlifter on the treadmill 6 times a week for 45-60 minutes a day and low trace carbs after 6pm and Ill show you a massive bodybuilder in about 3 months.

:I disagree strongly on that. No matter what the method someone uses to gain super strength gains-its imperiative they do so. If you put someone out on a deserted island with 135lbs of weights he can superset, giant set, high rep, superslow etc etc squats, deadlifts and benches to his hearts delight...the sad story is his gains will quickly come to a halt because his limiting factor is amount of strength he will gain. He has 135lbs to work with. You take that same guy on a deserted island and give him squats deadlifts, and benches and an unlimited weight supply that he constantly pushes-- In 5 years i'll show you a big Gilligan.
I think the biggest fallacy in bodybuilding is "changing up" "keeping the body off balance"--you can keep the body off balance by always using techniques or methods that give your body a reason to get bigger=strength. If you dont write down your weights and every time you come into the gym you go by feel and do a different workout (like 98% of the gym members who never change do now) what has that done? Lets say Mr gym member does 235 for 9 on the bench press this week, "tries to keep his body guessing" by doing 80lbs for 13 on flyes next week, 205 for 11 on inclines the week after, 245 on hammer press for 12 the week after that --and so on---there is only a limited number of exercises you can do. Two months later when he does bench presses again and does 235 for 8 or 9 has he gained anything--absolutely not. Four months later he does hammer presses for 245 for 11 (again) do you think he has given his body any reason to change?
Take 2 twins and have one do a max squat for 20 reps and the other twin giant set 4 leg exercises with the same weight. All year long have the first twin blast away until he brings his squat for 20 reps from 150 to 400lbs. Have the second twin giant set four exercises every workout with the same weight he used in his first workout all year long. Believe me he is going to be sore and he will be shocking the body every time but he will not gain shit after about the third leg workout. Because the load didnt change. There is no reason for his legs to grow in size due to the strength demand presented. The first twin who can now squat 400 for 20 is going to have some wheels. I use rest pause because in my opinion it is the utmost method to rapidly gain strength. Others might like a different method--thats up to them, doesnt matter as long as they are rapidly gaining strength. I try to bring someone through the shortest but intense workout they can to produce rapid strength increases--use glutamine, extreme stretching and 3 days for recovery, and then try to make them grow again. If your gaining appreciable strength on an exercise with a certain method I think the ABSOLUTELY WORSE THING YOU CAN DO is to change up right then. Take that exercise and method to its strength limit and then when you get there then change to a different exercise (and maybe method) and get strong as f#cking hell on that one too.

This is how I show someone the intensity they should be putting into every exercise and it really opens some eyes up quickly in the people I train. Either next quad workout or next time you dont feel like doing your normal leg workout, be true to yourself and take the number of plates you load up on the leg press for a hardcore 10 reps deep ---cut it exactly in half and do one set of 50 reps deep. So if your bragging to everyone that you can do 12 plates on each side for 10 then guess what your going to be doing - 6 a side for 50. And you know what-- everyone reading this can do the 50 reps, it just comes down to who has the most balls or not. You cannot lock your knees the whole set and you cannot rest your hands on your knees either. I try to get 25 first and then pause at the top (with knees slightly bent) and take 5 deep breaths and then get 10 more (5 deep breaths) and 5 more.(im at 40 now)..then the last 10 reps is pure tortuous hell...i usually do 3 reps (take 3 breaths)3 more reps, 3 more breaths, then 2 reps (3 deep breaths) and finally the last 2 reps=50 reps. Your legs will be absolutely destroyed and you better start stretching or walking the next day is going to be an adventure. My best ever was about 3 years ago I got 7 plates a side for 50 and i go deep (knees to armpits deep). The people that I have seen who cannot make it to 50 are people who dont have the mental fortitude to take pain and get pissed off or someone who starts to cramp. But youll learn alot from that one set, you will learn the intensity it takes to approach every set on every other bodypart and exercise you do.

: honestly I have no idea, I am continually into "accumalation of muscle" mode and I think if you start counting fat grams and carb grams in a size building program you'll drive yourself nuts. Personally I eat like the following every meal.....65 to 110 grams of protein down the hatch is imperiative, then I satisfy any other hunger needs with complex carbs......the fats I take in (besides whats in red meat and eggs etc) are flaxseed and extra virgin olive oils. After 6-7pm I lower my carbs dramatically and only take in protein and (low carb vegetables). I dont get fat this way. If I come to a sticking point with my bodyweight I start with one tablespoon of olive oil in my protein drinks and make my way up to 3 or 4 tablespoons over a weeks time. I dont include olive oil in my nightime protein drink though. As long as I get in 450 to 600 grams of protein in a day things keep moving upward. Ive never gained muscle easily (ever)-its a continual meticulous process for me.....thru trial and error Ive found simple things like 550 grams of protein and olive oil to get my calories up (when the eating gets tough) has been the key. I am ectomorphic and my mother was painfully skinny and I seem to be built on her lines---I know my body would love to weigh 168 to 175lbs normally without ever training--I've really had to put my time in at the dinner table for the past decade (plus) and it gets seriously annoying sometimes....but I do believe that the plate in front of you 6 times a day is what makes the difference between 97% of the 185-225lb bodybuilders out there and the 3% of the 260 to 310lb bodybuilders out there.

1)protein drink(olive oil 600/milk 210/water 0/powder 260/flaxseed 50+ oatmeal 200+ banana 102=1420cals

2) post workout drink=3 cups cranberry juice 390, four scoops protein powder 520, 2 baked potatoes 284=1194cals

3)chicken rice casserole-cup of rice 190 chicken 581, sauce 150 , two cups milk 280=1201 cals

4)T bone steak 1419, water with lemon (trace), mashed potatoes (400)=1819cals

5) protein drink with olive oil 600/powder 260/milk 210/ water 0 and protein bar 290 = 1360

6)two cups 2% milk 280 and 2 cups cottage cheese 440=720 so my total came out at 7714 calories for yesterdays eating.

I wrote a long damn answer to this yesterday--took me like 45 minutes and the whole thing reset and I lost it all. Probaly not going to go into detail like I did yesterday but here goes....I buy in bulk period. I buy eggs (5 dozen), ground beef(10lb chubs), rice etc in bulk and save a grip of money. I also always buy according to unit price which seems simple but most people overlook it. I scour flyers for steak deals and go to the supermarket that is selling London Broils for 1.87 a LB and snatch up a slew of them. I am a stingy frugal shopper--my biggest expense is protein powder (I use the 4.4 Pro complex). At lunchtime at work every day I go out to eat (otherwise I go nuts eating homemade food all the time). I am "COUPON BOY"---I get tons of restraurant coupons in the mail and use them religiously. Dennys, IHOP, Aculpulco etc you name it...most of these coupons are 10 bucks off or one meal free if a meal of greater or equal value is bought. My buddy and I split the bill and I end up getting a free meal every other day. Ill go to Dennys and order the T-bone steak or chicken breast with rice no problem. I eat pretty much the same things every day (as in the post above) except at lunchtime where Ill mix it up. I am paying less for food than alot of people eating 3 times a day who dont lift (outside of protein powder). I have tried hard to get sponsored this year by a protein powder manufacturer to negate some of those costs.....Metrx added me to Team Metrx which allows me to incredible discounts on their stuff but comes out to the cost of my intake of Pro Complex(which I love and stay with). Optimum Nutrition's sponsorships are tapped and ISS research were/are considering....we shall see what happens.

every workout I destroy or beat my previous. Every single time. My brutal life or death war is with that training notepad and I am fucking determined to be the winner. That piece of paper will not own my ass--no way in hell. I am adding 5-10lbs (at least) every time that exercise comes up again (for the same rep range). On large exercises involving back and legs sometimes its 20lb jumps. On a positive note I rotate 3 exercises per bodypart so I have about 10-11 days between repeating that same exercise which really allows me not to get burned out on it quickly. Only when I feel my rep range went a little too low last time that exercise was done do i think about staying with the same weight. I say "think about it" because I cant stand using the same weight and I virtually always end up throwing a 2.5lb on each side anyways just for my conscience. I can go a whole year beating last weeks performance (and I have the training log to prove it)..Sometimes like on a bicep exercise I can get to my strength limit in 6 weeks though.....My girlfriend hates being around me right before the gym--I pace around, have anxiety and I am very irritable. Why? Because I get nervous knowing I have to beat that damn notepad. Its like anticipating a fight with someone and its nervewracking---but I do not let myself lose. I know this much from training so long--if I only equal last weeks weight and reps I've wasted time and haven't gotten any bigger. If I continually destroy that notepad's previous records I continually get larger over time.
Sadly there does come a time down the road where the poundage-jumps slow down on an exercise and I start fighting for a rep here and there to beat last week. When i go about 3 workouts with an exercise like that where a exercise finally beats me, I change the exercise and its time to destroy the new one I pick. I can relish in the fact that 98% of the time I am the winner though.

like people to do this at their meals
1)pound down the protein amount they must get in first for that meal
2)add flax or olive oil to that meal if it allows it..i.e. protein drinks etc (and its before 6pm)
3) finally eat carbohydrates to satisfy any other hunger pangs at that meal and dont worry about grams! If you cut your carbs off at 6pm the nite before you can pound raisin bran at breakfast and pasta at lunch etc etc your not going to have to worry about it (your going low carb after 6pm again tonite) Offseason you shouldnt feel like your abstaining or dieting--hell if you want 25 chocalate chip cookies--pound them down at 2pm (after you downed your protein drink first)

After 6pm worry about carb grams--keep them low to trace--just delete potatoes, pasta, bread, cereals after 6pm and boatload all the corn, peas, or vegetables you want with your (after 6pm) protein sources.

I dont know about you guys but I can put away the food (hell my name is up on a plaque at a restraurant 16 times out of 23 people for wolfing down this meal called "THE HE-MAN SPECIAL") but with 550 grams of protein coming in I still have trouble getting enough carbs in sometimes-I have to almost force feed myself ---Im just not that hungry by the time I down that huge steak to suck down huge amounts of pasta (especially at 6 meals a day pace)----My opinion is use carbs only to satisfy the rest of your hunger before 6pm and the veggies to satisfy hunger after 6pm and dont worry about counting carb grams.

Post workout regardless of time of day--
for me its 75-110grams of protein in a protein drink consisting of 3 cups of cranberry grape (or dextrose or any kind of similiar concoction you want to come up with)--glutamine, creatine and some kind of complex carbs (I eat 2-3 potatoes) but you could do a double serving of oatmeal, some rice, dry pasta etc etc).......................
thats post workout for people who train at morning or night. There probaly is 2 more meals after that one for most people who train after work at nite. See alot of this depends on 'that person' and what time they workout and how many meals they are eating after their workout. The absolute last meal of the day is definitely no/minimal carb-minimal fat and high protein-no exceptions to that rule. Theres not a quicker way of piling on bodyfat than high carbing or high fatting it right before bed no doubt (the variance being on glycogen stores). Up to now I have been generalizing for the masses because alot of you are worried about bodyfat but the second to last meal of the day for you guys who train at night is going to depend on who YOU are. If you have a tendency to gain fat easy then I would go high protein low carb and low fat at that second to last meal. If you have trouble gaining weight or if you feel flat glycogen wise i would have high protein, mod to low fat and mod to low carb that second to last meal. I cant write something in stone for 100 people who have different bodytypes. The general rule of thumb would be (disregarding post workout meal) high protein low carb low fat at nite. A high school kid trying to desperately gain weight could moderately carb it up and take in olive oil at that second to last meal (after he gets his protein in). An endomorph who is 40 years old and trying to put on as much muscle mass as possible will still not be able to do that. You guys have to take a look at yourselves and think that one out. The average guy could do the post workout meal (5pm or so) then have a big steak with a boatload of veggies and a little dry pasta or small amount of potatoes if he wanted at 7pm and then have a protein drink and some roast beef cold cuts before bed at 1030 or so and he would be right on the money (but we are not all average guys in here are we?)

i totally agree with that instynct but I try to develop a plan of progression pushing toward the future bodybuilding efforts. I kind of look at things not so much as "this time in the present" but how can I make myself continually better in the longrun. For me supersets will work but in the long run how can you progress on them? --(by increasing the loads would be one way)--the only problem I find in them is you end up pissing people off in the gym who see an empty machine or barbell lying there and you yell "hey im using that" while your doing the other part of the superset.
Slow mo reps again--can you use them in an efficient way that will be long term progression? I dont think my way is the only way at all. I just personally like to use rest pausing and progressively heavier weights for myself and the people i train. Whatever method you or BBBD or anyone for that matter --on this board use that allows you to be better next year than you are this year--will work in my opinion. I tend to train at gyms for 2-4 years and then change gyms and in that time i do alot of observing. And I see the same guys at the exact same size year after year benching (and lifting) the same weights over and over without fighting for those 2.5 to 10lb plates every week. Its like they are programmed to always lift 225 or always lift 315 in the bench. What the hell happened to trying to get 320 and 325 etc etc? If i stayed the same year after year like some of the people I see in gyms slaving away I would quit...I would see no reason to do something I cannot improve upon. I think alot of you guys have the same mentality as I have and that is--if I do something I have to be the best I can personally be at it--I cant go half ass with it. It amazes me to see people train hard and then not eat. Or train with the same weights year round.

as im late for work--I cant make this post long but let me leave everyone with food for thought. There are roughly 400 pro bodybuilders in this world. Most with elite genetics for muscle building. Think it out and of those pro bodybuilders who are the most massive of the bunch? Did Dorian have the best genetics? I dont think so. I would give that to Flex Wheeler and Paul Dillett. But Dorian used backbreaking weights to make himself king of the hill. Just like Coleman has done, and Bertil Fox did. Mike Francois. Lee Priest. Shawn Ray has incredible genetics yet always stays in a comfort zone of weights and is one of the smaller bodybuilders onstage. So with genetics on the pro stage being just about equal across the board (with some variance)if strength meant nothing--you wouldnt have guys like Coleman and Yates and Haney etc winning Olympias. You would have incredible genetically gifted pros who did 75% intensity training with comfortable weights. Kovacs will not win a pro show because of his structure, but if you think Greg Kovacs would be even close to as massive as he is if he got satisfied doing 225lb benches and 350lb squats--there is no way in hell. So i stick to my opinion for anyone on this board: The day you reach your ultimate strength potential is the day you will be the most massive your genetics will allow. And if you dont believe that--stick with the weights you are currently using for the next 10 years and come back and please let me know how much larger you have become.

breakfast: oatmeal(5) with soy grits and ground flaxseeds on top (23) a little bit of milk(2) in the oatmeal and a protein drink (55)=85grams

afterworkout snack-two potatoes(7) and a double serving protein drink in cranberry grape juice (110) =117grams

lunch (quick one cuz of my work)-can of ravioli (11) and protein drink(65) (cup of water cup of milk in there) =76grams

snack--two 99cent bigmacs(54) and 2 cups of milk (20)=74 grams (hey I could lie and say a turkey on wheat but im being truthfull here)

dinner -1lb of hamburger (100) cooked drained and then washed off with water thoroughly (to remove as much fat as possible)with condiments and noodles (4) =104grams

I keep reasonably lean by taking in zero to trace amounts of carbs (found in vegetables) after 6-7pm

nitetime meal-six eggwhite omelet with peppers or peas(20) or roast beef cold cuts with half water-half milk protein drink (65) =85 grams

Thats 541 protein grams on average and with me usually eating larger portions than measured I probaly venture toward 600 grams alot. If you look at the food I eat its pretty cheap, specially the way I buy it in bulk.

honestly I have no idea, I am continually into "accumalation of muscle" mode and I think if you start counting fat grams and carb grams in a size building program you'll drive yourself nuts. Personally I eat like the following every meal.....65 to 110 grams of protein down the hatch is imperiative, then I satisfy any other hunger needs with complex carbs......the fats I take in (besides whats in red meat and eggs etc) are flaxseed and extra virgin olive oils. After 6-7pm I lower my carbs dramatically and only take in protein and (low carb vegetables). I dont get fat this way. If I come to a sticking point with my bodyweight I start with one tablespoon of olive oil in my protein drinks and make my way up to 3 or 4 tablespoons over a weeks time. I dont include olive oil in my nightime protein drink though. As long as I get in 450 to 600 grams of protein in a day things keep moving upward. Ive never gained muscle easily (ever)-its a continual meticulous process for me.....thru trial and error Ive found simple things like 550 grams of protein and olive oil to get my calories up (when the eating gets tough) has been the key. I am ectomorphic and my mother was painfully skinny and I seem to be built on her lines---I know my body would love to weigh 168 to 175lbs normally without ever training--I've really had to put my time in at the dinner table for the past decade (plus) and it gets seriously annoying sometimes....but I do believe that the plate in front of you 6 times a day is what makes the difference between 97% of the 185-225lb bodybuilders out there and the 3% of the 260 to 310lb bodybuilders out there.

Copa was a tough one for me training wise at first. He is somewhat endomorphic as stated yet his goal was to make an impact as a lightheavy. At 5'7" 205 offseason that would of made him a middle of the class middleweight. So the dilemna was do I take him down to 185-190lbs or so and then try to bring him up at 8-12 percent bodyfat with alot of treadmill work? Or should we go into muscle accumalation fast track mode and get him up to the top of the lightheavies as quickly as possible? I asked him this and he said "lets get this freight train rolling"--so we are trying to keep his bodyfat the exact same and get him up to 240lbs as quick as humanly possible. And then we will decide to maybe make the jump to 250-260lbs or lean him out a little bit and bring him up with some more treadmill work. That would make him a (actually 5'6" 3/4) 195-198lb lightheavy who will do some major damage. Copa has a set of wheels on him that arent going to make any other competitors want to trade leg shots with him any time soon. I dont think he realizes how good he is going to be in a show which is a trait of humbleness I like to see in bodybuilding. Like Coastal and kjigga this guy can put the food down the hatch. Guys like that make my job easy--I just jump start the car and get it moving and they keep pouring gas in the tank. The only problem i forsee with Copa is keeping him in the lightheavies as we might end up having to lose 10lbs of muscle (if he tops out at 255-260) to make those 198's.

This stuff is fun as hell for me--I love shocking the hell out of these guys who pay me to train them. I know at the beginning they are thinking "well ive been stuck here for awhile what possibly could this guy do to change me"---that right there is absolutely the funnest part of it for me.

I have the originals to the pics cris sent above. For some reason he looks a little smoother above than in the originals, maybe he saved them as jpegs instead of BMP and lost some of the detail. I have also seen cris's pics at 254lbs when he started with me 8 weeks ago and now he is 25 or so LBS larger and leaner than he was at 254 (by my eye).
Onswole I have some radically different opinions on the best way to put on lean muscle mass at the absolutely fastest rate possible. Out of the seven bodybuilders I have trained in person the last few years every one of them has gained at least 54lbs at a leaner bodyfat in less than 2.5 years time. I dont want to be known as a precontest trainer--that bores me honestly. Shedding bodyfat takes 4 months. Getting 4lbs of muscle per inch of height takes people years (or never)! The "main problem" in bodybuilding isnt that people cant get shredded..(although that is a difficult task in itself) Its that most people dont have enough muscle mass to make a dramatic showing. I have been doing online training since August and have trained or am presently training 8 people during that time. My first client went from 184lbs to 214lbs (at his last weighing) in 4 months. His bodyfat was tested at 7.7% at the beginning and then at 208lbs it was tested again at 7.6%. My present clients are pretty much doing the exact same thing. Im not making people fat, Im putting muscle on them at the fastest rate possible. Cris makes my job easy, he has very good genetics but i felt his diet and training werent the most productive to gain at optimal levels. All Im doing is putting him into a fasttrack method of gaining muscle. My methods involve making huge jumps in muscle mass in 4-7 weeks and then cruising for 2-3 weeks and then jumping up in muscle mass again for 4-7 weeks etc etc. Whenever i take on a new trainee--they usually make that big 12-25lb gain in the first gaining phase and then we try to blast up 10lbs of muscle mass in each gaining phase after that. As with everything these eventually turn into 5LB jumps as someone gets more advanced. Regardless this puts them at a rate where they are gaining 30-60lbs the first year. I have chris and most people I train on low to trace carbs after 6pm so his glycogen stores are slowly depleted and any excess isnt being stored as bodyfat. He then fat loads or carb loads(always with high protein) at the first 3-4 meals of the next day.
In another 45 days cris will be 10lbs larger and either at the same offseason bodyfat or slightly less bodyfat. And when cris gets to 300lbs (probaly somewhere between April and June) he will be at the same bodyfat you see or a little bit leaner. As this is chads board and this is starting to sound like an advertisement for my methods (which I dont want) --I'll stop there. Ive written some articles for AE and put alot of my theories up at Animals board if you want to look at them

That is true but I believe certain exercises put you in a better mechanical positions---otherwise people would be building gigantic triceps from kickbacks and one arm reverse extension movements which doesnt happen much compared to reverse grip benches which most people get good results from. So I think its very important to find key exercises that work for you and rotate them. Lets look at back thickness....someone could do heavy pulley rows for thickness but what really is that doing toward great results for the traps or erectors? Hence Deadlifts and another thickness exercise such as rack deads, bent over rows, or t bar rows should probaly be used and rotated too. Only a study would show for sure but in my mind someone is going to build far better triceps rotating close grip benches, reverse grip benches, and lying ez bar extensions than coming in and doing a rest pause set of tricep pushdowns every tricep workout. Again key exercises/different mechanical positions but (yes the whole tricep contracts in every movement)--the whole quad contracts on leg extensions as it does in a squat but there is no doubt that a deep squatting movement is key in building large quads-------------besides that I think the main problem is that the workout you describe would be so unbelievably boring with zero variety that you would burn out on it mentally in a short amount of time.

calves--I believe I have found a key in calf development that will get anyones calves past that sticking point no matter how crappy their calves are. Its also about as fun and comfortable as getting your tonsils pulled-lol --my three favorite exercise to rotate are
1) leg press calf press
2) seated calf raise
3) hip sled or hack squat calf press
The method is one straight set (after warmups) with 12 reps being the goal. Its up on the toes and then a counted 5 seconds down to the very bottom and then 15 counted seconds at the very bottom stretch and back up again. I believe it is that very stretch that is making the peoples calves I train respond so well. The first couple you think "ahh this will be cake"--at about the 6th rep it becomes "goddammit this is pain"---at 9 reps people are now looking at you shaking and you think one of two things to yourself "ok this is too much pain and IM a pussy" and stop there or you decide "I am the most hardcore motherfucker in this gym" and you somehow will yourself thru 10, 11 and the 12th rep (which you must finish on the negative)
All I ask is that if your calves havent budged in a while, for the next 3-6 months try this and keep adding progressively heavier and heavier weights if you make it to that 10th or 11th rep---and then come into this forum and let me know if this did jack crap for you or dramatically changed your calves.

One more thing I wanted to reiterate to people is -I believe the lowest gain of any guy Ive trained online has been 14lbs in 2 months with 32lbs or so being the top, so lets say for reference sake that 18-25lbs is the average. In that 2 months time people are only doing 24 workouts. That is it. Eight weeks times 3 times a week=24. So for laymans sake we are getting around an average of 1 LB per workout. Thats not a pure lb of muscle per workout with glycogen, water, and (hopefully not) bodyfat and other factors taken into consideration. But I wanted to show people how important every workout and every meal is and why I constantly drill into peoples heads "Do not miss meals!"

no there are going to be trace to some carbs in many foods. Without going into great detail, in my plan you want to limit starchy or complex carbs--potatoes, rice, pasta, cereal, etc etc after your predetermined cutoff. That cutoff has to be determined by you guys. Some of you might go to bed every nite at 2am and get up at 11am while some might go to bed at 10pm and get up at 5am. The endomorph guys usually have to cut off the carbs a little earlier than everyone else. When I say cut off carbs I say it in a very lenient sense. I know there are carbs in milk, vegetables etc etc but a general rule is this :: lets say you go to bed at 1130pm every nite--I would make the cutoff probaly 6pm or 630pm or so. Before that time everything goes and if you get at least 60plus grams of protein in at every meal Im happy with that and you can eat carbs to your hearts desire. Well first I should state that at every meal I want the protein amount your supposed to eat taken in first, and then vegetables and lastly complex carbs. Believe me you pound down a 16 ounce steak with two helpings of peas you arent too hungry for a loaded up baked potato afterwards. So with that said--after your cutoff mark your pretty much eating high protein and vegetables etc and leaving out the complex carbs. A sample 630pm meal for me is a 16ounce prime rib with a huge Ceaser salad with some green beans on the side and about 2 small bites of the huge sweet potato that comes with the meal(because IM full at that point)--630pm is my lunch at work and I usually go to restaurants where they give me good deals-(coupons, freinds etc)-so Im the prime rib king--LOL
My next meal after that is about 900pm and is usually a protein drink in milk and half a zero carb protein bar or some cold cuts (something to that effect)
My last meal after cutoff is 1130pm and is usually roast beef cold cuts and 2 cups of milk or a protein drink and a chicken breast or egg white omelet with milk--something along the high protein-lower carb genre.
Of course if you train at nite (which I dont) you would plug in the post workout meal directly after that workout. For the guys I train that is 80-100 grams of protein in 75 grams dextrose or 3 cups of juice (I like the vanilla protein and grapefruit juice combo myself as im gagging on everything else now) --along with that is a multi vitamin, 7.5 to 10 grams of creatine and an insulin protocol if that is used. Glutamine is usually in most of the protein powders I buy but if it isnt someone would also take that in post workout too. I hope that kind of clears some things up for you.
I need to say the following because I think some are getting confused about my training philosophy. And this is my fault because I stated how I train personally(I know my recovery levels pretty well). Whenever I train someone new I have them do the following --4 times training in 8 days---with straight sets. Sometimes with rest pause sets but we have to guage the recovery ability first.

Day one would be Monday and would be
back width
back thickness

Day two would be wenesday and would be

Day three would be friday and would be
back width
back thickness

(sat+sun off)

Day four would be the following monday and would be

and so on wenesday friday monday wenesday etc.

Your hitting every bodypart twice in 8 days. The volume on everything is simply as many warmup sets as you need to do- to be ready for your ONE work set. That can be two warmup sets for a small muscle group or five warmup sets for a large muscle group on heavy exercise like rack deadlifts. The ONE work set is either a straight set or a rest pause set(depending on your recovery abilities again). For people on the lowest scale of recovery its just that one straight set---next up is a straight set with statics for people with slightly better than that recovery----next up is rest pausing (on many of the of movements) with statics for people with middle of the road recovery on up.

Three key exercises are picked for each bodypart (hypothetically we will use flat dumbell bench press, incline smythe bench press, and hammer press)---USING ONLY ONE OF THOSE EXERCISES PER WORKOUT you rotate these in order and take that exercise to it's ultimate strength limit (where at that point you change the exercise and get brutally strong on that new movement too). That can happen in 4 weeks or that can happen 2 years later but it will happen some time (You cannot continually gain strength to where you eventually bench pressing 905 for reps obviously)---Sometime later when you come back to that original exercise you will start slightly lower than your previous high and then soar past it without fail---
As you progress as a bodybuilder you need to take even more rest time and recovery time. READ THAT AGAIN PLEASE AS YOU PROGRESS AS A BODYBUILDER IN SIZE AND STRENGTH YOU NEED TO TAKE EVEN MORE REST AND RECOVERY TIME. EXAMPLE: My recovery ability is probaly slightly better now than when i started lifting 13-14 years ago but only slightly...but back then I was benching 135lbs and squatting 155lbs in my first months of lifting. Now I am far and away the strongest person in my gym using poundages three to six times greater than when I first started lifting. With my recovery ability being what it is both then and now do you think I need more time to recover from a 155lb squat for 8reps or a 500lb squat for 8reps? Obviously the answer is NOW! This past year I have been really pounding the slag iron as heavy and hard as I can in preparation of trying to get onstage at about 252lbs early next year. That means a hard 300lbs to me offseason and im pretty damn close to that right now. The gains I have made in strength this past year even at my lifting level are nothing short of phenomenal (in my mind). With those strength gains comes the ratio of recovery factor. Whereas a year ago i was training 2 on one off 2 on one off and getting away with it with extreme stretching etc....about 2 months ago i took an extra day off on the weekend because of work obligations and I just started to feel somewhat tired because of how heavy my weights were. If my strength keeps progressing at this level I am eventually going to have to train Monday Wenesday Friday Monday Wenesday Friday like outlined above simply because I am reaching poundages that are so far and away above my beginning weights-I have to take the neccesary recovery precautions. I am still training as often as I possibly can per bodypart--thats key to me. The more times I can train a bodypart in a years time and recover will mean the fastest growth possible! Ive done the training a bodypart every 10 days system in the past and while recovering from that--the gains were so slow over time I got frustrated and realized the frequency of growth phases(for me)was to low. I want to gain 104 times a year instead of 52--the fastest rate that I can accumalate muscle (YET AGAIN WITHIN ONES RECOVERY ABILITY-I CANT SAY THAT ENOUGH)
In the past 4-5 years that I have been slowly changing my philosophies of training Ive been gaining so fast the last couple of years its been pretty amazing. Ive got my training down to extremely low volume (a rest pause set or ONE straight set) with extreme stretching, and with recovery issues always in the back of my mind. Like Iron Addict I realize the number one problem in this sport that will make or break a bodybuilder is overtraining. Simply as this--you overtrain your done as a bodybuilder gainswise. Kaput. Zip. A waste of valuable time. But I also think there is a problem with underfrequency (only if you can train hardcore enough with extremely low volume to recover)--As stated in an earlier post I skirt right along the line of overtraining--I am right there...ive done everything in my power (Stretching, glutamine, "super supplements", sleep)to keep me on this side of the line and its worked for me. I believe everyone has different recovery abilities--the job of a bodybuilder is to find out what their individual recovery ability is and do the least amount of hardcore training to grow so they can train that bodypart as frequently as possible. For anyone who wants to follow my lead that would mean starting out with straight sets training 4 times in 8 days and strictly guaging yourself recovery wise with every step up you take (statics, rest pauses)--i hope this clears some things up

Notpuff for the next few months take note of people who you see in the gym that never change. They will be the ones using the same weight every time on exercises every time they go in the gym. These are the people who go 135, 185, 225 on the bench every time its chest day. Your best freinds in the gym are the 2.5lb plates--your very best buds!!! You put those 2.5lb plates on that bar every time you bench press for 52 weeks and now your bench is 250lbs more at the end of the year! That would in my mind be another inch to inch + half thickness on your chest. Can it be done? probaly not at that rate but TRYING TO DO IT will get you alot bigger than doing what 98% of the people in the gym do. Unless you are gifted genetically to build muscle at a dizzying rate (most people arent) the largest people in your gym will also be the ones heaving up the heaviest weights. Do you think they started out that way? No they were probaly 175lb guys who bulldozed their way up to that level. A perfect example are male strippers. (No offence Dancer) These guys use a boatload of drugs on par with hardcore competitive bodybuilders. After an initial phase where they grow off of steroids like everyone else--their growth stops (like forever)---Why? because they arent eating 500 grams of protein a day and dont fight and claw their way to 500lb bench presses and 700lb squats and deadlifts. They stay on the drugs for years and years while stripping but dont go beyond that 200 to 220lb range. So much for juice being the total equalizer. I dont know why everyone makes this such an elite science when in actuality its pretty cut and dry. If you keep a training log and note your weights used for the next 5 years and find they are still the same you will pretty much look "still the same" in 5 years. If you double all your poundages in the next five years in everything, your going to be a thick motherfucker.....If someone ever took a ratio of people who dont make gains to people who do, it would be pitiful. I would venture to say that 95% of people in gyms across this country arent gaining muscle and are wasting their time. The best advice I could ever give a guy starting out lifting is "go train with an established powerlifter" ----Fact: Dorian Yates and Flex Wheeler used drugs (Flex (straight from the persons mouth who gave him shots for a very long time)used some of the most abusive amounts I have ever heard of) Do you think Dorian Yates had the genetic gifts that Flex Wheeler had? Not a chance yet Yates willed himself with brutal slag iron to be utterly massive....On the other hand flex does his 3 sets of 10 reps with 185lbs and goes home. Yates hit 318 in the offseason and 270lbs at his contest peak. Wheeler I believe topped out at 265 offseason and 238 or so contest. Wheeler had the better physique yet Yates won by being so overpowering. Think it out.
Oh by the way take a look at the Yates who is a lowland mountain gorilla--this is ridiculous. I believe he was 297lbs here at a guest posing.

everybody out there gains 90LBs? if that was true noone in this world would be unhappy with their gains. Every 175 kid in the gym would be 265lbs in 18 months...cmon skylor we know thats not happening. If anyone in this forum thinks they will get massive--squatting 200lbs and benching 185lbs you really need to choose another activity. THE PEOPLE WHO MAKE THE GREATEST STRENGTH GAINS OVER TIME WILL MAKE THE GREATEST SIZE GAINS OVER TIME ACCORDING TO THEIR GENETIC POTENTIAL. If skylor and notpuff never get anywhere close to their ultimate strength levels(AT WHATEVER REP RANGE) they will never get to their utmost level of potential size.
Dorian took off major time after he stopped competing and lost alot of the weight he had on him. He is 235-245lbs now and happy at that weight-- after training for a while. What does he have left to prove? The man doesnt have to walk around at 280lbs to garner respect....the guy ruled the roost for almost a decade. More power to him that he doesnt feel the peer pressure to be "inhumanly massive"
I saw another guy in this thread talk about doing one warmup and then an all out set and complained of injuries. WHY THE HELL ARE YOU COUNTING WARMUPS? If it takes you 6 sets to warm up or if it takes only two it doesnt matter--ITS A WARMUP!!! Its only to get you ready for your main one or two sets on an exercise. Do as many warmups as it takes you to feel ready....Dont live or die by warmup sets---they dont count!!! If I went in and did one warmup on rack deadlifts at 135x6 and then went right for 650 for 10 for my main set Im asking for a slew of injuries! Notpuff the only thing I keep hearing you say to people is "you must have good genetics" ---well if you have bad genetics isnt that more of a reason to maybe take some of this info in?! I dont see any pros on this board....many of these guys dont have superior genetics for building muscle fast. I know for sure I dont have genetics ala coleman or cutler. But I know this--if i stuck around doing supersets and volume training with poundages 250lbs and lower for the last 8 or so years, Id be nowhere close to what I am now. WHY THE HELL IS FLEX WHEELER--THE BODYBUILDER WITH THE GREATEST GENETICS ON THIS PLANET a small pro? Ill tell you why--his training is laughable. Do you think Ed Coan has incredible genetics for muscle building? No he probaly has middle of the road genetics. But if you think Ed Coan would be anywhere as large muscularly as he is right now by doing volume training and the typical 225 benches, 250 squats and 225 deadlifts your fooling yourself. Do not confuse a strong guy who is small with someone who makes himself brutally stronger over time. IT IS STRENGTH GAINS over time that is the key----its not "oh Stickboy over there can bench 315 and he looks like crap"---well Stickboy was granted god given strength...thats just what? Now if Stickboy works his ass off, and eats correctly and brings that 315 bench up to a 550lb bench then you will see some major muscle gains (up to the point his genetics allow). Im not a HIT or periodization or any voodoo disciple--I follow my own methods and plans as I am sure instynct and Iron Addict do. But the baseline for all of our methods seem to be the same thing---"what can we do to become the strongest individuals that our genes will allow?"----I havent come across an individual yet that was determined, listened to me 100% and did not miss meals who I could not turn into a person who hears "are you a bodybuilder" or "wow your big" in his travels. I think "complaining about genetics" is sometimes a cop out for people who dont really have what it takes to get to that "full bore" level of intensity that inches you up the muscle ladder.

isolation and high rep exercises? Ever see his video? 805 deadlifts for 2 reps, 765 for 6 reps deads, front squats with 600lbs for 6, 200lb dumbells being thrown all over the place for chest, miliatary presses 315 for 12 and he has done a double with 405. Muscular Development should be embarrassed to print such idiocy. I believe Coleman was clean or close to it (Texas A+M could probaly say better than I could) when he was powerlifting and when he was an amateur bodybuilder. He won the Natural Universe and got his pro card at roughly 220-230lbs shredded to the bone and if that was natural or close to it---thats about 270lbs offseason and would be a huge natural bodybuilder. Since that time he has hooked up with Chad Nichols and blasted (with juice) up to his current 265lbs contest weight and 320lbs offseason. He trains heavier now than he ever did.... The man has used extremely heavy weights and powerlifting fundamentals to become the most massive bodybuilder walking this planet.

Skylor here is a question for you-----Who is the last incredibly massive bodybuilder you have seen (juice or not)who couldnt incline 405, squat 550, deadlift 550. I am talking freak-massive ala dorian, kovacs, francois, etc.....there are slew of guys in gyms using mega amounts of steroids on par with pros who are no where close to a pro's size.....some with sucky to mediocre genetics, yet some with superb genetics. But the pro's using weights that are up there in the stratosphere are by and large the most freakish. These are pros we are talking about, who all have superior genetics. Do you think Yates, Francois, Cormier etc all just had natural genetics for incredible strength, not ever having to work for it? Jean Paul Guilliame is the only clean professional bodybuilder I ever trusted is truly clean. The man is a smaller pro training without the juice yet trains incredibly heavy for his size--405lb squats rock bottom for up to 20 reps and his wheels are incredible.
Now if you got guys doing massive amounts of steroids in gyms around america---who are not putting on appreciable size because they train with light weights----- what in your right mind could make you think you will gain appreciable amounts of muscle mass as a natural training light?!?! One million people in the United States have admitted to using steroids--1 million!!! That is one out of every 300 people walking around. How many big people do you see out there? Not many. It sure isn't close to 1 million---- because 90% of those people have no clue in the world on what needs to be done.....

ugh I disagree with this totally and I am probaly the wrong person to ask this. My mindset is "accumalation of muscle, accumalation of muscle"....losing fat takes 3-4 months of cardio...building huge amounts of muscle is 6-10 years of brutally heavy lifting. You can lean out by doing some simple things and still gain muscle at an optimal rate---keep your complex carbs low to trace after 6pm (meaning meals should be something to the effect of protein and vegetables etc)----on your day off do 45 minutes of cardio first thing in the morning--you will be able to keep lean year round doing this if your strict with it. Secondly what do you think is the first thing that is going to come off with that bodyfat if you go on a strict fat loss program right after you put some muscle on? Any and all new muscle you might of just put on.....there is something to be said of density and I see this happen time and time again with competitors---they set a goal of something to the effect of weighing 260 offseason---as soon as they get there they start dieting---they get shredded and lose almost all muscle they just put on recently too. Another guy who gets to 260, stays there for (at least) 6 months and then starts dieting holds on to a great deal of muscle he had put on in the last year and a half or so.

well if it was lifting and drugs we would have a slew of huge people in gyms walking around ---but we dont....we have a majority of guys doing drugs and lifting weighing 180 to 218lbs and then we have a few individuals who realized to be truly large you have to eat truly large. Like the old saying--if you want to be 300 you better eat like the guy who is 330 to get there. On a personal level--I absolutely love my workouts--40 minutes tops--ill go in and warmup on the hammer chest machine for 3-4 sets and then hit one absolutely brutal rest pause set for 15 reps RP and then a 20 second static. Ill do the same for shoulders on the smythe front press (rest paused) and then finish up with triceps with reverse grip bench presses (rest paused) on the smythe. Everything has to be more weight than last time and its 15 reps RP or "death to my unworthy soul"---LOL then I do my extreme stretches and leave---all thats easy.
Then I have to go home and eat a meal consisting of at least 75 to 120 grams of protein every freaking 2.5 hours of every damn day----that truly is a monotonous, tedious chore I agree with you....nothing sucks more than looking at a clock at 11pm at night knowing i have to swallow down 4 more hardboiled eggs with this protein drink sitting in front of me.

Heres a simple way of putting it---lets say we have Joe Stickboy weighing 150lbs and benching 135x6 and squatting 185x6. What would be the fastest point you could get Joe Stickboy from 150 to 300lbs of muscle? The absolutely fastest way from point A to point B would to get Joe Stickboy to his genetic limit of strength on every exercise he uses. If Joe stickboy sticks with 135lb benches and 185lb squats and supersets, giant sets, superslowmos, etc etc etc various other lifting methods do you think Joe is going to even weigh 225lbs in 2 years? I would have Joe stickboy eating 350grams of protein a day to start with and with every weight gain he would stay 50 grams over double his bodyweight. He would low carb it at 5pm and only take in lower carb vegetables and proteins at that point. How do I get him as strong as possible? I rest pause him as I have never seen any method get anyone stronger than rest pausing. If I make Joe do 6-15 sets a bodypart he will only be able to lift bodyparts once a week so he will only grow 52 times a year. So I will have Joe do one exercise per bodypart for one working rest pause set every 3-4 days so in a years time Joes gaining strength and growing 78 plus times a year. Joe will keep a log and he will beat every damn exercise with more weight or more reps as long as he possibley can. When he gets to sticking points I change his exercise he is stuck on and then get him brutally strong on that next one. Im making Joe into a food processing (high protein), fat burning (lowcarb PM), heavy slag iron lifting machine. Im extreme stretching Joe out for flexibility, fascia and enhanced recovery.(and possibley hyperplasia although noone knows for sure if that can happen yet) He is using everything in his power (creatine, glutamine) to help his strength gains and recovery along. The day I get Joe Stickboy incline benching 405lbs for 6-12 reps, squatting 500lbs deep for 20 reps, deadlifting 500-600lbs for 6-15 reps Joe wont ever be complaining he doesnt have enough size because everyone will be coming up to him for advice.

your totally confusing strength gains vs absolute strength. Powerlifters try to stay in weight classes and curb back food intake to do so. I know many extrememly strong 150-200lbers--thats god given strength not strength gains. You take any powerlifter in this world in the lighter classes and put him on a high protein non calorie restricted gaining diet (which isnt what he is doing trying to stay in weight classes) and Ill show you a powerlifter who has tremendous size increases. If you dont think strength equals size you might want to rethink what bodybuilding training is all about. In simple terms you lift a load your muscle can do 2 different things (tear which is rare and what we dont want) or adapt and get larger to hold every increasing loads. If you curl a 35lb dumbell today and 10 years from now your curling a 35lb dumbell do you think your arm is going to gain 6 inches in size!?!? Ive written on this at length on both AE and on cycles for pennies and I dont want to rewrite all that. I just cant fathom that people think they can lift the same weights for the next 5-10 years and think they are going to be dramatically larger. If strength doesnt equal size show me one extremely large bodybuilder who is lifting the exact same weights as when he started training (there is none). Largest bodybuilders pound for pound per inch of height on this planet= was Dorian Yates, Ronnie Coleman, Kovacs, Tom Prince etc ---those are also astonishingly strong people who have blasted up heavier and heavier poundages from day one.
Remember this was written over three years ago and the diet was not part of DC's diet, also the gear talk was for guys who never come off, I mean never, stay on for years, a few things have changed as DC trains more clients and learns to add things and take some away from the program...
DC's ideas are by far the best thing to ever happen to my training. In the 6 months I followed his split religiously I gained as much as I have in my other 3 years total of training. said:
pullin what r u thoughts and opinions about doggcrap training? are u a believer in the high protin he recommends

the results speak for themselves. I have all the respect inthe world for dc and in-human. these two have helped lots of folks and are living proof that his system works for BBers and powerbuilders.

i messed with the routine for a few months and will get back to it after my meet next month. i am trying to make it more pling freindly. it lacked in some of the posterior core movements but its an easy adjustment to fix. sometime in feb or march ill post the PB/dc routine. :rolleyes:
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no wonder im always the same size and always weak as in like 150 pound squats and 225 deads wtf. i used to never increase my strength in the gym but when i do, i did notice that i was getting bigger. my problem is = im always trying to lose fat, and come from about 14% to 10% and im like 150 at 5'6". pretty pathetic and have a hard time and i mean HARD time losing fat (by drastically changing diet, with the cardio, etc) so back to dnp but the point is, i never am in a muscle-building stage. and i just came off a cutting cycle that i aborted because of bloat, although with low cals i woas getting stronger and thus getting more muscular so i still need to restore my hpta, i guess a couple more weeks, maybe another month and ill be back to normal. its been almost 6 weeks now. im on nolva now 20mg ed.

and ive been training like a pussy lately, well because im low test, and lost some strength, etc. but i am going to change my training routine more like a powerbuilder's routine. first i was doing 3 times/wk, then switched to 5, now i cant hang with 5 so im gonna do 4. im not into powerlifting or bodybuilding, im into powerbuilding. i want to get lean and i do want to add a lot of muscle and a ton of strength but i dont care about being 5%, it aint happening with my appetite. which is why i like DC's advice on the diet phase, which is eat as many carbs to stave off hunger pangs until 6pm, then protein/fat with trace carbs. and do the cardio 45 min/day except leg day (which i was doing with 120 carbs though !)

im going to hit some dnp in a couple days and for the next month or so, try and get down to a legit 10-11% BF and then start some kind of powerbuilder program. i do use compound movements, but i never RELIOGIOUSLY kept adding weight each week in the past as some weeks i couldnt beat last weeks, etc.
its not conceivable to go up every week. too many variables. maybe at first you may make big gains but they eventually slow as you reach your limitations. thats when the work starts. the real work is not done in the gym. its done at the supper table. constant changes to the routine will be needed. they can be as subtle as changing reps, sets, movements, order but alterations and adaptation will be necesarry.
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Starkraven said:
no wonder im always the same size and always weak as in like 150 pound squats and 225 deads wtf. i used to never increase my strength in the gym but when i do, i did notice that i was getting bigger. my problem is = im always trying to lose fat, and come from about 14% to 10% and im like 150 at 5'6". pretty pathetic and have a hard time and i mean HARD time losing fat (by drastically changing diet, with the cardio, etc) so back to dnp but the point is, i never am in a muscle-building stage. and i just came off a cutting cycle that i aborted because of bloat, although with low cals i woas getting stronger and thus getting more muscular so i still need to restore my hpta, i guess a couple more weeks, maybe another month and ill be back to normal. its been almost 6 weeks now. im on nolva now 20mg ed.

and ive been training like a pussy lately, well because im low test, and lost some strength, etc. but i am going to change my training routine more like a powerbuilder's routine. first i was doing 3 times/wk, then switched to 5, now i cant hang with 5 so im gonna do 4. im not into powerlifting or bodybuilding, im into powerbuilding. i want to get lean and i do want to add a lot of muscle and a ton of strength but i dont care about being 5%, it aint happening with my appetite. which is why i like DC's advice on the diet phase, which is eat as many carbs to stave off hunger pangs until 6pm, then protein/fat with trace carbs. and do the cardio 45 min/day except leg day (which i was doing with 120 carbs though !)

im going to hit some dnp in a couple days and for the next month or so, try and get down to a legit 10-11% BF and then start some kind of powerbuilder program. i do use compound movements, but i never RELIOGIOUSLY kept adding weight each week in the past as some weeks i couldnt beat last weeks, etc.
why not try skipping the cutting for a while and try to add some quality mass , if you are able to add 20-25 pounds of quality mass with little or no extra fat your body fat % will drop tremendously even with the same amount of fat you are carrying now .
DADAWG said:
why not try skipping the cutting for a while and try to add some quality mass , if you are able to add 20-25 pounds of quality mass with little or no extra fat your body fat % will drop tremendously even with the same amount of fat you are carrying now .

i have no other option left. i actually want to do it that way, clean or on gear doesnt matter to me, at first ill go clean for a while. i just cant seem to cut efficiently. too small maybe, as in not enough muscle. and i cant seem to do a "cutting diet" as in lowering my cals so low like to 1600-1800. i was told thats low, then i hear you need low cals, etc. i was on a cycle during this cut phase and actually gained muscle and strength. i like gaining muscle and strength and leaning out like i did. i bet if my cals were higher, i would have added some serious size with no fat (my cals are super clean diet food, i just mean to say if i increased the cals, more oats and protein and fats)

so tomorrow im going to do a 8-10 day dnp cycle and after that start up my powerbuilding routine. MT-ThF. i have to get more muscular to lean out. i was told to STOP trying to get smaller and i really dont even feel muscular when have to cut all the time and feeling weak in the gym. its time to move up.