Serious Backne

[pdizzy]

pdizzy
I know the Nizoral ointment definitely helped my chest acne.
I hope the Nizoral shampoo works for you!

Thanks Man, where did you get the 2% ?, i only got 1%.

 

[TheChosenOne]

the reason why they say it doesnt work for acne is because type 2 DHT is what causes acne and type 1 DHT is what causes hair loss. finastride blocks type 1 not type 2 DHT. you need a reductase inhibitor to block both like dutastride.

Dutasteride is way too powerful. I don't think it is a good idea to use dutasteride while trying to build muscle.

Finasteride blocks more than enough dht to reduce the oil production that causes acne. I've tried it and it works. It's true that finasteride doesn't work on type 2 dht. But it still reduces OVERALL DHT in the body by 70%. That's a huge number and it's been proven in clinical studies. I really think if your suffering from over active oil glands caused from high test levels (and dht) that you should try twice a day finasteride. Its really cheap with insurance. Anyone reading this can look up the half lives of any medication. Look it up, it's that simple. You don't take dbol once a day do you? You dont take Winstrol (winny) once a day do you? Why would you take finasteride once a day when your test levels are over 1500 all day. You need around the clock protection. A normal person can take one pill in the morning because their testosterone spikes in the morning everyday, and goes down from there. I'm not trying to sell this shit. I'm just trying to educate some of my bros.

 

[cashout]

Dutasteride is way too powerful. I don't think it is a good idea to use dutasteride while trying to build muscle.

Finasteride blocks more than enough dht to reduce the oil production that causes acne. I've tried it and it works. It's true that finasteride doesn't work on type 2 dht. But it still reduces OVERALL DHT in the body by 70%. That's a huge number and it's been proven in clinical studies. I really think if your suffering from over active oil glands caused from high test levels (and dht) that you should try twice a day finasteride. Its really cheap with insurance. Anyone reading this can look up the half lives of any medication. Look it up, it's that simple. You don't take dbol once a day do you? You dont take Winstrol (winny) once a day do you? Why would you take finasteride once a day when your test levels are over 1500 all day. You need around the clock protection. A normal person can take one pill in the morning because their testosterone spikes in the morning everyday, and goes down from there. I'm not trying to sell this shit. I'm just trying to educate some of my bros.

I'm not trying to be augmentative but there is a body of research that has supported the notion that finasteride is ineffective in the treatment of androgen induced acne.

For starters...

Hormonal Treatment of Acne in Women

Hormonal therapy for acne. [Semin Cutan Med Surg. 2008] - PubMed - NCBI

Although your logic is sound, yes finasteride does produce up to a 70% reduction in DHT levels and that SHOULD effect the production of sebrum by the oil glands, it actually does not impact the fromation and growth of the bacteria and its subsequent production of acne as we would hope.

There is a significant concentration of Type I isoenzymes for DHT in the skin that are largely unaffected by the application of finasteride. This reaction is potenated at a SITE SPECIFIC LEVEL and that is why the systemic reduction factors are not correlated to the type of decrease in acne we might otherwise expect.

Additionally, a number of researchers have demonstrated that the initiation of bacteria in the oil produced by the glands requires a far higher level of initial stimulation of the androgen receptors than it takes to maintain the existence of the bacteria and its production of acne.

In other words, the initial burst of DHT potenating the oil glands needs to be significant to stimulate the growth of the bacteria but the ongoing stimulation needs to be significantly lower to maintain the production of the offending bacteria. So, researchers have hypothesized that a 5-AR might be helpful at prevent the INITIAL formation of bacteria and a subsequent acne problem BUT it will not produce a significant effective impact on existing bacteria to retard the production of the bacteria to the point where its effects are mitigated and the acne is eliminated. The threshold for continued bacteria production is too low and finasteride doesn't provide and effect that approaches significant with regard to that threshold.

This is the same type of effect that warrants the use of Accutane at a high dose and partly the same reason why we don't see a signifcant reduction in a patients's acne with a small dose of Accutate although there is a significant reduction in oil production and bacteria causing the problem

Besides the science of the 5-AR, which I have studied now for 17 years, I have also used the drug for that same 17 years on a daily basis. I started using finasteride when it was in Phase III clinical testing in 1994. I have participated in several other research studies on the drug and its effects over the last 17 years. So I have some personal experience with its applications as well. That expereince tells me again that it is not effective as an androgen induced acne treatment.

You are correct about dutasteride however, I would not use that as the effects are far too reaching.

 

[TheChosenOne]

Cashout, of course I respect your opinion and you have obviously used this medication for a long time. With that being said I can honestly say that for me using finasteride throughout the day greatly reduces my oil production. Which in turn greatly reduces my acne problems. Normally, on a 500mg per week cycle my face gets super oily. I also get deep cystic pimples on my face, back, chest, and back of the neck especially. This last year I started taking finasteride while on my testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) dose of 100mg per week. While I certainly don't have acne at that dose I noticed that my skin looked great. When I bumped my dose up the oil and acne came with it. That's when I decided to take finasteride twice a day. Using finasteride like this kept skin clear and oil free for a full 12 weeks. I didn't get a single pimple on the back of my neck, which is my worst area.

Cashout, have you ever tried using finasteride in a way that would provide close to 24 hr protection from high levels of dht? For that matter, has anyone other than me tried it that way? I can say that I have, and it greatly reduced my oil production. I'm not trying to question anyone's knowledge. However, sometimes studies just aren't the same as real world experience. Show me a study of a group of bodybuilders taking 500mg of test per week and finasteride 1mg twice a day to reduce sebum oil. You can't. It doesn't exist. I for one, would love to know if it works for anyone besides me. So please, feel free to respond.

 

[TheChosenOne]

The whole idea is to reduce dht 24hrs a day. In order to do that you would realistically have to take finasteride 3 times a day. Since it's half life is at the most 8hrs. My personal protocol was to take finasteride for the first 16hrs of the day. Then use topical Spironolactone on my problem areas before bed for the remaining 8hrs of the day. This provided 24hr protection. There were many days through the cycle that I chose to use finasteride 3 times a day instead. Either way seemed to work fine. I just thought I'd post my personal protocol to help everyone understand what I'm talking about.

 

[cashout]

Cashout, of course I respect your opinion and you have obviously used this medication for a long time. With that being said I can honestly say that for me using finasteride throughout the day greatly reduces my oil production. Which in turn greatly reduces my acne problems. Normally, on a 500mg per week cycle my face gets super oily. I also get deep cystic pimples on my face, back, chest, and back of the neck especially. This last year I started taking finasteride while on my testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) dose of 100mg per week. While I certainly don't have acne at that dose I noticed that my skin looked great. When I bumped my dose up the oil and acne came with it. That's when I decided to take finasteride twice a day. Using finasteride like this kept skin clear and oil free for a full 12 weeks. I didn't get a single pimple on the back of my neck, which is my worst area.

Cashout, have you ever tried using finasteride in a way that would provide close to 24 hr protection from high levels of dht? For that matter, has anyone other than me tried it that way? I can say that I have, and it greatly reduced my oil production. I'm not trying to question anyone's knowledge. However, sometimes studies just aren't the same as real world experience. Show me a study of a group of bodybuilders taking 500mg of test per week and finasteride 1mg twice a day to reduce sebum oil. You can't. It doesn't exist. I for one, would love to know if it works for anyone besides me. So please, feel free to respond.

You are correct there is no study of bodybuilders using 500 mgs of test and finasteride @ 2 mg 2X per day.

It is not necessary to take the medication 2X a day even though it has a half life of 8 hours. You don't need that to aquire a "24 hour protection" with the drug.

I am not sure you are clear on how half life affects a drugs clearance in one's system.

Half life means that after a measured time, in this case 8 hours, there is still half of the initial application of active drug in the blood stream. So a single application of 1mg of finasteride after 8 hours would still have .5 mgs of the drug active in ones system. After 24 hours, there would still be .25 mg of the drug active in one's system. If the drug is taken again at a 1 mg application after 25 hours, then one would have 1.25 mgs of active drug in the system. There is a cumulative effect to half life that, with repeated applications, increases the active dosage over time. So in effect the the lower bound of the drug in terms of active mgs in the blood is greatly increased.

After 7 days of 1 mg applications there will always be at minimum approx, 1 mg in the blood at the lowest point (actually 0.9921875mg before the next 1 mg application) and almost 2 mgs after the next 1 mg application (1.984375 mgs exactly). The math is simple - make a speadsheet and check it.

Again, there is no need to take finasteride 2x a day just be cause the half life is 8 hours. After 7 days of taking the drug you are consistently maintaining approx. 1 mg of the drug in your system at all times.

No, I have never taken it 2X a day. As I just indicated why it is not necessary to do so.

You alluded to a couple of facts that actually support what I wrote in my post. You stated on your HRT of 100 mgs of test you had no acne. I would expect that, at that dose, most would not. But when you cycle 500 mgs of test you had problems with acne.

That closely follows what I explained as the "threshold" pattern for most androgen induced acne (i.e. requires a significant stimulation to cause a bacterial response) but a very limited or minor continuation of the oil production to sustain. If you are mitigating the initial oil production with finasteride before it occurs that will help raise the level of threshold but once it is already started it would not do much to eliminate the problem.

So, again by starting finasteride prior to or concurrently with your cycle you are reducing the likelihood of crossing the threshold. That is where you will see some benefit. If you already have acne, finasteride will not do much to help eliminate it because the amount of oil production needed to sustain the bacteria is much much smaller than what is needed to provoke an initial response.

 

[cash]

I am lost on the dutasteride being anti muscle building?

 

[cashout]

I am lost on the dutasteride being anti muscle building?

I would not quantify it as "anti-muscle building."

The issue of dutasteride is not one related to muscle growth per se as much as a possible impact on some neurological functions.

Duta inhibits both Iso I & Iso II forms of DHT to a degree that approaches 90%+.

This inhibition is systemic (i.e. throughout the whole body).

This is an important distinction between fina and duta.

Fina inhibits principally the Iso Type I DHT and it does so in largely a SITE SPECIFIC manner for receptors in the hair follicle and prostate.

It has a significantly less effect on the systemic level of DHT than Duta.

Type II Iso DHT has principle binding affinity for receptors in the CNS, skin, and smooth muscle tissue. This form of DHT has been implicated in important neurological functions. It is plausible to speculate that Iso II DHT can affect neurological impulses for muscle contractions. Of course this has not been quantified in any clinical studies that would be of significance to bodybuilders.

 

[TheChosenOne]

Cashout you are probably right about not needing to take finasteride twice a day. However I can positively say that finasteride reduces my oil production. I've not tried taking 2mgs once a day, so I can't say if that works for me. I do know that if I'm taking 250mgs of test cyp per week, that 1mg of finasteride isn't going to cut it. At that point I have to raise my finasteride dose and Ive just been taking it twice a day. My theory for this is totally based on the half life of the medicine. Also, I completely understand how half lives work. I realize that theoretically I shouldn't have to take it twice or three times a day. Yet, I can think of many other medicines with the exact same half life of finasteride that would be absurd to take once a day. Many of the oral steriods have a 6-8 hr half life and are taken 2-3 times a day(to help maintain stable blood levels). Also, test cyp itself is perfectly fine to take once a week because it's half life is around 6-7 days. However, twice a week test cyp shots work even better. Am I right?

I'm not trying to get in an argument here. I'm just telling you that it worked for me. The difference in oil production was night and day. Like I said, you may very well be right about not having to take it twice a day. If I were to take 2-3mgs once in the morning it may have the same effect.

 

[cashout]

Cashout you are probably right about not needing to take finasteride twice a day. However I can positively say that finasteride reduces my oil production. I've not tried taking 2mgs once a day, so I can't say if that works for me. I do know that if I'm taking 250mgs of test cyp per week, that 1mg of finasteride isn't going to cut it. At that point I have to raise my finasteride dose and Ive just been taking it twice a day. My theory for this is totally based on the half life of the medicine. Also, I completely understand how half lives work. I realize that theoretically I shouldn't have to take it twice or three times a day. Yet, I can think of many other medicines with the exact same half life of finasteride that would be absurd to take once a day. Many of the oral steriods have a 6-8 hr half life and are taken 2-3 times a day(to help maintain stable blood levels). Also, test cyp itself is perfectly fine to take once a week because it's half life is around 6-7 days. However, twice a week test cyp shots work even better. Am I right?

I'm not trying to get in an argument here. I'm just telling you that it worked for me. The difference in oil production was night and day. Like I said, you may very well be right about not having to take it twice a day. If I were to take 2-3mgs once in the morning it may have the same effect.

If it seems to work for you - do it. That is always a good rule of thumb in my book.

I am not refuting that it may have an effect for you. I believe what you are saying.

What I am pointing out is that the logic you are advancing to support why it works for you is flawed. Others should not rely on the logic and expect the same outcome.

Please don't take this as an insult; I don't mean it to be. The examples you offered are totally different than the application of fina that we are discussing and at the risk of sounding harsh, from what you wrote it is clear to me that you do not understand half life and what it actually implies in terms of clearance times and aggregated applications for max and min dosage boundaries.

Finally, the injectable form of test is a non-sequitur comparison because its half life is non-linear.

 

[TheChosenOne]

Cashout. It is obvious that you have educated yourself. That's why I respect your advice. I am in no way trying to persuade others to copy me. I'm just saying that it worked for me last cycle. I will certainly be running finasteride the same way on my cycles from now on. I do think that treating acne non-hormonally would be better. Such as using medications like benzoyl peroxide and certain antibiotics. I just can't stand the excess oil I get from testosterone. The only thing that has helped me with that has been finasteride. Other than when I took accutane at 17.

 

[username1]

Thanks Man, where did you get the 2% ?, i only got 1%.

I'd like to know this as well. also since people use nizoral for hair loss if you have a problem with back hair, and need to use this for bacne will you start growing more hair?