steroids vs prohormones

[elijah_123]

One major draw back has been the lack of use of injected phs. I've used transdermal 1-test/4ad and liked it. It doesn't compare to test/fina though.

Hopefully in early spring I'll be trying a sust like 4-ad injectable along with 1-test cyp and see how that does. It may change as more about the "OH" compounds come out. I hate trying to compare 1-test to fina due to lethargy.

And btw no one has bothered to answer the question.

which gains are more keepable, gains from steroids or gains from prohormones?

Simple answer, yes. It is about post cycle therapy (pct) when you keep or loose gains from hormonal helpers. People have been debating the quality/quantity of gains. I'll leave that to YJ much more versed than I in this area.

 

[250ByXmas]

A more interesting argument than the legal/illegal issue would be, if prohormones were even close in effectiveness to steroids, wouldn't they have a much better reputation than they do? Everybody would LOVE to see prohormones live up to the hype. Legal, effective prohormones would virtually shut down the black market for anabolic steroids completely. Market pressure would drive down the prices for the prohormones, and everyone would be happy. The only people who would have a vested interest in bashing the prohormones would be the people who were sourcing the real thing. The question is, why isn't this happening? And the answer, I would expect, is that the personal experience that you claim is irrelevant is not supporting the effectiveness of the substances. It's very easy to find a large collection of posts by people who claim that prohormones did not come close to the gains that they would have expected on a steroid cycle.

 

[YellowJacket]

A more interesting argument than the legal/illegal issue would be, if prohormones were even close in effectiveness to steroids, wouldn't they have a much better reputation than they do?

Who gives them a bad reputation? More often than not the know-it-all clueless guy who doesntk now what hes talking about, ie. PHs gave me gyno and no gains.

Legal, effective prohormones would virtually shut down the black market for anabolic steroids completely.

Have you missed the whole Biden bill and the talk about the upcoming PH ban? Wow.

The question is, why isn't this happening?

Logic tells me sources arent going to step up, announce they are dealing illict drugs and then bash PHs. Come on now.

It's very easy to find a large collection of posts by people who claim that prohormones did not come close to the gains that they would have expected on a steroid cycle.

And its just as easy to find just as many people who find PHs stellar, once again, youre missing the point and still have yet to provide a reference to PHs give gyno and nothing else.

 

[250ByXmas]

Who gives them a bad reputation? More often than not the know-it-all clueless guy who doesntk now what hes talking about, ie. PHs gave me gyno and no gains.

I'm not sure what your point is here. I'm not suggesting that you take advice from people who haven't tried prohormones. Of the people who have tried prohormones, what makes people "clueless" if they fail to get gains from them?

Have you missed the whole Biden bill and the talk about the upcoming PH ban? Wow.

I don't see the relevance of this to my point, which was "Legal, effective prohormones would virtually shut down the black market for anabolic steroids completely." The Biden bill has not been passed, and prohormones aren't legal. Why would anyone in the US continue to use steroids if they had a legal alternative? Have they been suckered by the marketing hype from the online steroid dealers? Or they are not using them because they are worried the Biden bill will pass?

Logic tells me sources arent going to step up, announce they are dealing illict drugs and then bash PHs. Come on now.

Nor would I expect people with links to supplement stores in their signature to say that prohormones don't work. I'm not a source, never have been, and never will be. But the prohormones that I tried did not give me much in the way of noticeable gains.

And its just as easy to find just as many people who find PHs stellar, once again, youre missing the point and still have yet to provide a reference to PHs give gyno and nothing else.

We've established the gyno portion of my claim, what's lacking is the "good gains". If prohormones gave good gains, there should be a LOT of people on this forum agreeing with you. The closest that you can get is elijah, who says (I highlight the relevant part for your attention):

One major draw back has been the lack of use of injected phs. I've used transdermal 1-test/4ad and liked it. It doesn't compare to test/fina though.

 

[elijah_123]

I say they do not compare because 1-test brings lethargy AND it wasn't injected. That is the relevant part. There have been many good reports of injectable 4-ad at high doses (1500mg+) week. With sides similiar to 500-600mg of test.

From this alone I guess the activity of 4-ad before being metabolized into test isn't as strong when an ester is attached.

A 4-ad/1-test cycle of injectables may very well compare to a test/fina cycle when the doses are dialed in. Lethargy being the only drawback. But with 1,4 and 5aa beginning to come around that may change.

I don't see the relevance of this to my point, which was "Legal, effective prohormones would virtually shut down the black market for anabolic steroids completely." The Biden bill has not been passed, and prohormones aren't legal. Why would anyone in the US continue to use steroids if they had a legal alternative? Have they been suckered by the marketing hype from the online steroid dealers? Or they are not using them because they are worried the Biden bill will pass?

The logic here may be a bit off. One right now ph's aren't IMO as effective as Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) because 1) the doses are being dialed in by vet's and not your average GNC customer now 2) delivery systems are finally coming up to par with Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) 3) the variety of Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) available for different goals and 4) habit.

Your logic here would say to me that when AMD introduced a chip that ran as fast as an intel then intel goes out of business because AMD is cheaper. No Intel had a history with customers, intel had Xeon chips for a different market and lack of support from motherboards.


Personally I am very interested in a methylated 1-test, 4-ad cyp, 1-test cyp cutting cycle. The ECA should offset the lethargy for the most part. A legal alternative would be very nice but I would still prefer the time tested nature of AAS

 

[YellowJacket]

I'm not sure what your point is here. I'm not suggesting that you take advice from people who haven't tried prohormones. Of the people who have tried prohormones, what makes people "clueless" if they fail to get gains from them?

If you cannot make gains from PHs from a reputable companies at reasonable doses, its user error, simple. Either your diet, rest or training sucks. Dont blame the PHs.

I don't see the relevance of this to my point, which was "Legal, effective prohormones would virtually shut down the black market for anabolic steroids completely." The Biden bill has not been passed, and prohormones aren't legal.

No they wouldnt.... geeez, at least follow the debate. No one is saying PHs are as potent or as powerful as ALL steroids, but you can and will gain from then if you know what youre doing. Oh and PHs are legal.

Why would anyone in the US continue to use steroids if they had a legal alternative? Have they been suckered by the marketing hype from the online steroid dealers? Or they are not using them because they are worried the Biden bill will pass?

See above. You seem to be the only one saying or comparing PHs to steroids. I know better, but PHs are far from worthless. You're totally avoiding your original, completely inaccurate claim that PHs give no gains and only gyno. I guess I would avoid that statement if I were you as well.

Nor would I expect people with links to supplement stores in their signature to say that prohormones don't work. I'm not a source, never have been, and never will be. But the prohormones that I tried did not give me much in the way of noticeable gains.

I support board sponsors because they keep this board running. Without them, you wouldnt be here being educated in this debate my friend. It would be wise to think and use logic before speaking.

We've established the gyno portion of my claim, what's lacking is the "good gains". If prohormones gave good gains, there should be a LOT of people on this forum agreeing with you. The closest that you can get is elijah, who says (I highlight the relevant part for your attention):

There are a myriad people who agree with me. No one has stepped in and spoken up, kind of like no one has stepped in and agreed with you. There are 50+ boards on this internet of ours, I encourage you to get out more. Try www.anabolicminds.com and www.mindandmuscle.com
Careful, both are highly educated boards and flame to high hell for ignorant statements.

 

[YellowJacket]

As much fun as Im having running in circles... this 'debate' is going nowhere. Just be weary of making god awful generalizations next time about pro hormones, something in which you obviously arent too familiar with. Good day.

 

[250ByXmas]

See above. You seem to be the only one saying or comparing PHs to steroids. I know better, but PHs are far from worthless. You're totally avoiding your original, completely inaccurate claim that PHs give no gains and only gyno. I guess I would avoid that statement if I were you as well.

I'm certainly not the only one comparing PH to steroids. That was the point of the original thread. I stand by what I said. Let's look at my original statement:

Originally posted by 250ByXmas
You get many of the risks of oral steroids without many of the benefits.

It's far from being "completely inaccurate". Nowhere am I claiming that prohormones "can't work", nor do I claim them "worthless". You, on the other hand, are claiming that prohormones give "good" gains. What is the gold standard for good here? If 1-AD gives "good" gains, what does dianabol give? Mindblowinglyorgasmic fantastic gains?

Let me ask a slightly different question. When the Biden bill passes, do you think there will still be an underground market for any prohormones? If not, then I would argue that the main benefit of the prohormones was their legality.

 

[YellowJacket]

It's far from being "completely inaccurate". Nowhere am I claiming that prohormones "can't work", nor do I claim them "worthless". You, on the other hand, are claiming that prohormones give "good" gains. What is the gold standard for good here?

Whats the definition of 'without many of the benefits' Do you even know what PHs are? Theres is no 'golden standard' anyone whos been lifting for any significant time knows nutrition & training come first, until we nail that variable, no one can define 'good gains'. But with 1-test, trandermal, one can see right around 15-20lbs in 8 weeks if all of the above is in check, much what you would see in a basic test enth cycle, except this is cheaper, legal and no worries about getting scammed. Gyno isnt as likely with 1-test however.

If 1-AD gives "good" gains, what does dianabol give? Mindblowinglyorgasmic fantastic gains?

If you're going to compare 1-AD to dbol, Im going to go ahead and go home. A 1-AD alone cycle isnt a bad idea, a dbol only cycle is an ignorant idea, Im guessing you had no idea.

Let me ask a slightly different question. When the Biden bill passes, do you think there will still be an underground market for any prohormones? If not, then I would argue that the main benefit of the prohormones was their legality.

For 1-test and its various compounds, yes withouth a doubt they'll be a big demand for them on the underground market.

 

[250ByXmas]

But with 1-test, trandermal, one can see right around 15-20lbs in 8 weeks if all of the above is in check, much what you would see in a basic test enth cycle, except this is cheaper, legal and no worries about getting scammed.

So far, you've been the one to insist that I "prove myself", but I'd love to see what evidence you have to back up the above claim. Can you actually point to a peer reviewed study with placebo group that indicates that kind of gains? Or is that based on the "personal experience" which you claim is worthless anyway? Or will you insist that I search for a study that proves that 1-test doesn't give 15-20lbs in 8 weeks?

 

[elijah_123]

Ehhhh I would argue that 1-test won't be a hot product. Nice effects but once prices go up it will be hard to choose 1-test over fina.
Also the transdermal stack isn't going to be cheaper than a test enan cycle...especially if you homebrew

If 1-AD gives "good" gains, what does dianabol give? Mindblowinglyorgasmic fantastic gains?

NOW this is quality logic.... I'm going to take a Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) that causes is MASSIVE water gain and compare it to one that causes a hardening/less water look... Surely you see the problem here.

This logic in turn would mean that deca which causes you to blow up is FAR superior to fina. No not at all, simply different actions and tools.

About a golden standard, I'll propose one. The golden standard for ANY drug, routine, diet, etc is that the one using it is pleased with the result, ie the cost/sacrifice/risk was outweighed by the benefits.
Of course the gains etc are important but muscle gain and retention is a HARD HARD thing to quantify. PCT/anti-e makes such a huge difference here. Lots of guys having trouble with PH's (like yourself) never knew to use anti-e's or post cycle therapy (pct). With that of course the ph experience is going to be crappy. You get gyno and loose your gains and blame the ph. That is like getting gyno and loosing your gains from a test/deca/dbol cycle and saying those three compounds are total crap. No, the execution of the training, anti-e, post cycle therapy (pct), diet etc was poor and yielded poor results.

 

[elijah_123]

So far, you've been the one to insist that I "prove myself", but I'd love to see what evidence you have to back up the above claim. Can you actually point to a peer reviewed study with placebo group that indicates that kind of gains? Or is that based on the "personal experience" which you claim is worthless anyway? Or will you insist that I search for a study that proves that 1-test doesn't give 15-20lbs in 8 weeks?

This will be hard to find. Nor do many to prove that HGH, IGF-1 or Insulin are great for muscle gains. Research costs huge money, and ph's aren't a big maker of money for research companies.

 

[gator_mclusky]

Ill stick to my steroids.
Im not taking sides but i put a hell of alot of clout about ones personal experience w/ a substance.....sometimes moreso than some study.

Gator

 

[YellowJacket]

So far, you've been the one to insist that I "prove myself", but I'd love to see what evidence you have to back up the above claim. Can you actually point to a peer reviewed study with placebo group that indicates that kind of gains? Or is that based on the "personal experience" which you claim is worthless anyway? Or will you insist that I search for a study that proves that 1-test doesn't give 15-20lbs in 8 weeks?

ITs based on common knowledge and the aforementioned intelligence of the physiology of PHs and their mechanism of action. Not to mention reading it over and over and over again. ( I used to mod the biggest PH/pro steroid board around).

Thats like asking for evidence that Test Enth. will be mass on you, pretty straight forward, common sense.


However, your claim tha PHs are useless and only give gyno and minimal gains is quite comical and you've yet to back that up...

 

[tednatas]

any gains you get can be keepable. as long as you have the right diet and excercise program and proper post cycle therapy (pct). there is no reason you shouldent be able to keep any solid gains. i have used a transdermal ph with good results. but im gonna push the envelope and go the steroid rout'. but i would reccomend the transdermal delivery over any other.

bottom line is u can keep any solid gains if ur prepared to do so.

 

[blackcatfever]

Well, I'm speaking from personal experience. Four years ago I thought I'd try prohormones as a legal alternative to steroids. I tried a few of the biotest products, as well as the 1-AD from PA. The spray products gave me gyno. It went through classic symptoms of itchy, to painful, to puffy, to lump. Since I was on no other steroids, do not use any rec drugs, and was old enough (29) that I certainly wasn't vulnerable to natural hormonal gyno, I blame that on the prohormones. All of the effects disappeared (except puffiness and a lump that I've never gotten rid of) when I went off the prohormones. At the time, I had no clue about anti-e's.

i supposed this could be why steroids are illegal today? maybe ph's are next too.

 

[Makaveli_786]

Damn Its surprising people think dianabol could be called a steroid and banned but some pro-hormone claiming to be stronger or almost as strong is perfectly legal...

Pro-hormones do work but I mean why do millions of us risk taking steroids if these pro-hormones are twice as powerful with no side effects at all?

Having said that I got some stunning results from a pro-hormone type mixture once so theyr not useless either.

 

[vendela99]

5 years ago I got gyno from too much caffeine. I went to the dr and was diagnosed and everything. I have used a few different ph's since then including 1 Test + 4-ad, and was happy with the results, and had no gyno. All in all steroids are better I'm sure, but ph's are good in their own right.

 

[elijah_123]

Damn Its surprising people think dianabol could be called a steroid and banned but some pro-hormone claiming to be stronger or almost as strong is perfectly legal...

Pro-hormones do work but I mean why do millions of us risk taking steroids if these pro-hormones are twice as powerful with no side effects at all?

Having said that I got some stunning results from a pro-hormone type mixture once so theyr not useless either.

I don't think anyone is claiming all Ph's are 2x more powerful than all AAS's. Methyl-1-Test is definately more muscle building than some compounds. It is very attractive for cutting. Granted if cheque drops were still available those would be prefered but for a quick acting beginning to cutting m-1-test is hard to beat.

 

[cman81]

hmmmmm?