bleachcola
New member
SWALE said:
I'm taking bets on the outcome. PM me for instructions on how to send your wager. Paypal, Evocash, and Western Union accepted.
SWALE on some testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) drama...very good info with the drama
- Thread starter SWALE
- Start date
- Status
I'm taking bets on the outcome. PM me for instructions on how to send your wager. Paypal, Evocash, and Western Union accepted.
A couple months back when this thread started my name was mentioned. It was said the JGUNS was breaking a deal for a store that he has with me. That's not accurate, so I guess it's not true.
I would also like to say that I have been a patient of Dr Scruggs at New Hope Med for 4 years. He prescibes 200mg/wk of test and 200mg/wk of deca for testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) and has for over 15 years to thousands of patients. So while I don't know anything about these new people on the scene I can tell you that those doses are not new, not harmful, and not out of line.
As Macro pointed out researchers are using as much as 600mg/wk of test, for several months at a time, to determine the effects of AS.[1] And they are doing so without incident or complications. 300-400mg a week of AS is no longer considered dangerous to those in the forefront of medicine.
[1]Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab. 2003 May;284(5):E1009-17. Epub 2003 Jan 07.
Development of models to predict anabolic response to testosterone administration in healthy young men.
Woodhouse LJ, Reisz-Porszasz S, Javanbakht M, Storer TW, Lee M, Zerounian H, Bhasin S.
Division of Endocrinology, Metabolism, and Molecular Medicine, Charles R. Drew University of Medicine and Science, 1731 E. 120th Street, Los Angeles, CA 90059, USA.
Considerable heterogeneity exists in the anabolic response to androgen administration; however, the factors that contribute to variation in an individual's anabolic response to androgens remain unknown. We investigated whether testosterone dose and/or any combination of baseline variables, including concentrations of hormones, age, body composition, muscle function, and morphometry or polymorphisms in androgen receptor could explain the variability in anabolic response to testosterone. Fifty-four young men were treated with a long-acting gonadotropin-releasing hormone (GnRH) agonist and one of five doses (25, 50, 125, 300, or 600 mg/wk) of testosterone enanthate (TE) for 20 wk. Anabolic response was defined as a change in whole body fat-free mass (FFM) by dual-energy X-ray absorptiometry (DEXA), appendicular FFM (by DEXA), and thigh muscle volume (by magnetic resonance imaging) during TE treatment. We used univariate and multivariate analysis to identify the subset of baseline measures that best explained the variability in anabolic response to testosterone supplementation. The three-variable model of TE dose, age, and baseline prostate-specific antigen (PSA) level explained 67% of the variance in change in whole body FFM. Change in appendicular FFM was best explained (64% of the variance) by the linear combination of TE dose, baseline PSA, and leg press strength, whereas TE dose, log of the ratio of luteinizing hormone to testosterone concentration, and age explained 66% of the variation in change in thigh muscle volume. The models were further validated by using Ridge analysis and cross-validation in data subsets. Only the model using testosterone dose, age, and PSA was a consistent predictor of change in FFM in subset analyses. The length of CAG tract was only a weak predictor of change in thigh muscle volume and lean body mass. Hence, the anabolic response of healthy, young men to exogenous testosterone administration can largely be predicted by the testosterone dose.
This whole study is available in the Bjaarki Library at Anabolicfitness.com
I would also like to say that I have been a patient of Dr Scruggs at New Hope Med for 4 years. He prescibes 200mg/wk of test and 200mg/wk of deca for testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) and has for over 15 years to thousands of patients. So while I don't know anything about these new people on the scene I can tell you that those doses are not new, not harmful, and not out of line.
As Macro pointed out researchers are using as much as 600mg/wk of test, for several months at a time, to determine the effects of AS.[1] And they are doing so without incident or complications. 300-400mg a week of AS is no longer considered dangerous to those in the forefront of medicine.
[1]Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab. 2003 May;284(5):E1009-17. Epub 2003 Jan 07.
Development of models to predict anabolic response to testosterone administration in healthy young men.
Woodhouse LJ, Reisz-Porszasz S, Javanbakht M, Storer TW, Lee M, Zerounian H, Bhasin S.
Division of Endocrinology, Metabolism, and Molecular Medicine, Charles R. Drew University of Medicine and Science, 1731 E. 120th Street, Los Angeles, CA 90059, USA.
Considerable heterogeneity exists in the anabolic response to androgen administration; however, the factors that contribute to variation in an individual's anabolic response to androgens remain unknown. We investigated whether testosterone dose and/or any combination of baseline variables, including concentrations of hormones, age, body composition, muscle function, and morphometry or polymorphisms in androgen receptor could explain the variability in anabolic response to testosterone. Fifty-four young men were treated with a long-acting gonadotropin-releasing hormone (GnRH) agonist and one of five doses (25, 50, 125, 300, or 600 mg/wk) of testosterone enanthate (TE) for 20 wk. Anabolic response was defined as a change in whole body fat-free mass (FFM) by dual-energy X-ray absorptiometry (DEXA), appendicular FFM (by DEXA), and thigh muscle volume (by magnetic resonance imaging) during TE treatment. We used univariate and multivariate analysis to identify the subset of baseline measures that best explained the variability in anabolic response to testosterone supplementation. The three-variable model of TE dose, age, and baseline prostate-specific antigen (PSA) level explained 67% of the variance in change in whole body FFM. Change in appendicular FFM was best explained (64% of the variance) by the linear combination of TE dose, baseline PSA, and leg press strength, whereas TE dose, log of the ratio of luteinizing hormone to testosterone concentration, and age explained 66% of the variation in change in thigh muscle volume. The models were further validated by using Ridge analysis and cross-validation in data subsets. Only the model using testosterone dose, age, and PSA was a consistent predictor of change in FFM in subset analyses. The length of CAG tract was only a weak predictor of change in thigh muscle volume and lean body mass. Hence, the anabolic response of healthy, young men to exogenous testosterone administration can largely be predicted by the testosterone dose.
This whole study is available in the Bjaarki Library at Anabolicfitness.com
Ulter--JGUNS told me a couple of weeks ago that you handle his store for him, and that he was going to start his own store now instead. Or perhaps he just has not told you yet. In that case, I will share with you what I do know. He wanted me to exclusively offer the products I am probably going to endorse there, in order to drive more business to CEM. There also were some other things discussed, but it would not be appropriate to publish them (it really would not be fair to you). That is what I know about it, and that is what I wrote. If that was not true, what JGUNS told me, then I have no idea of verifying same, as I am not privy to the business relationship you have with him. Nor is it my business. I was merely addressing part of what went wrong with the treatment I got over there, as further reason why I am not going to involve myself with them. You certainly have the right to represent yourself with respect to that relationship any way you choose, or not, and frankly, I do not care either way anyway. Since he promised me one thing one day, then did exactly the opposite the next, in violation of that promise, I chose to not continue to work toward a business relationship with a guy who had thus proven untrustworthy. I also have the interests of my associates to look out for, and they trust me to do just that. There are reasons why I tend to build life-long business relationships with those I do business with. So if what I was told is not true, then I am misinformed. In that case, I would be happy to apologize for any misunderstanding. In spite of our past differences, ethics must rule the day.
Having said all that, on the matter of 600mg per week, absolutely NO ONE in true AA Medicine would go there. No ifs, ands or buts. I do not see any mention of the effects of testosterone at these dosages other than those listed, which has absolutely nothing to do with health. This just is not a study which makes any kind of argument for you.
Why don't you describe the legal problems Dr. Scruggs is facing right now for us?
And you are very much mistaken concerning the health risks you face because of what you are doing.
And of course steroid dosages are not new.
Dr. Scruggs would not be treated well by either A4M or A3R, by the way.
BTW, why don't you post Dr. Scruggs' complete protocol for us, too? We can then decide together who is "at the forefront". Two of my Bro's were under his care (now using my protocols instead with much better results-although they may still be buying their steroids from him, I don't know), and they sure told me some weird stuff. I shall email one of them right now, to see if he would be willing to drop in here for a visit. The other one is a physician, and we cannot expect him to involve himself in this matter.
You are mistaking financial success (I guess measured by how many guys a doctor can sell steroids to) with good medicine. It's not hard for a doctor to sell steroids, and to make one heck of a lot of money doing it. What IS hard is turning down all those tens of thousands that can be made doing that (with my cutting-edge post cycle therapy (pct) and experience actually DOING steroids--during the 80's), just think how much I money I have turned down the past couple of years because of my professional ethics. Heck, if I were even willing to profit from the meds I HAVE provided, that would have been enough to pay off a lot of bills, AND take a world cruise to boot.
Having said all that, on the matter of 600mg per week, absolutely NO ONE in true AA Medicine would go there. No ifs, ands or buts. I do not see any mention of the effects of testosterone at these dosages other than those listed, which has absolutely nothing to do with health. This just is not a study which makes any kind of argument for you.
Why don't you describe the legal problems Dr. Scruggs is facing right now for us?
And you are very much mistaken concerning the health risks you face because of what you are doing.
And of course steroid dosages are not new.
Dr. Scruggs would not be treated well by either A4M or A3R, by the way.
BTW, why don't you post Dr. Scruggs' complete protocol for us, too? We can then decide together who is "at the forefront". Two of my Bro's were under his care (now using my protocols instead with much better results-although they may still be buying their steroids from him, I don't know), and they sure told me some weird stuff. I shall email one of them right now, to see if he would be willing to drop in here for a visit. The other one is a physician, and we cannot expect him to involve himself in this matter.
You are mistaking financial success (I guess measured by how many guys a doctor can sell steroids to) with good medicine. It's not hard for a doctor to sell steroids, and to make one heck of a lot of money doing it. What IS hard is turning down all those tens of thousands that can be made doing that (with my cutting-edge post cycle therapy (pct) and experience actually DOING steroids--during the 80's), just think how much I money I have turned down the past couple of years because of my professional ethics. Heck, if I were even willing to profit from the meds I HAVE provided, that would have been enough to pay off a lot of bills, AND take a world cruise to boot.
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bleachcola
New member
SWALE said:
I don't know, Ikeaboy's tit thread is pretty hot.
rubberduckyo
~DaDawg's L'il Sis~
Cat fight!!!!! 
JGUNS is getting his own store and he was going to buy the software for the store he has now from us. We recommended he get his own programmer and in fact he did and we may use his. We have no contract or ties to him in any way and never have so your story doesn't even make sense to me. You probably misunderstood something. You've done that before you know.
I don't know, I am not his lawyer and it's the first I've heard of it. Since it's none of my business, or yours for that matter, I wouldn't think to ask him.
There are some people who can learn some things from you about what is healthy and what is not regarding AS use. But I am not one of them. I am years ahead of you in this field and you're going to be playing catch up for the rest of your life. It's obvious from this thread that your ego has run away with your common sense but with all due respect, you will never know more than I do about steroid use. And you wouldn't last 2 posts with Macro so don't go there either.
I was corrected, Dr Scruggs has 17 years to your 2 not 15. I am not measuring his success financially. Again, I don't know what he makes and I don't care to so I wouldn't ask him about it.
I don't know what that's supposed to mean. The people at the University of Medicine and Science used 600mg/wk in their study and that's all I said about 600mg/wk.
What does this mean? They didn't mention the effects other than the effects they listed? Put the White Out cap back on the bottle doc.
If these researchers can get approval from this University to use 600mg/wk and they can get approval from the insurance carrier for the University and the carrier who underwrote the liability insurance for this study then they must have a pretty convincing argument for why it's safe to do. Don't you think? They didn't just administer 600mg/wk, THEY DID IT FOR 20 WEEKS, and if it wasn't safe then how do you suppose they got approval for it.
We are not talking about testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) here. No one said that. We are talking about what medical researchers feel is the safe top end dose to use Testosterone at for an extended period on healthy young males.
BTW this was also done at the University of Iowa with 500mg/wk.
I would think you would know all this being at the forefront of this field.
You're losing it doc. Let this stupid thread die rather than wallowing in it.
I don't know, I am not his lawyer and it's the first I've heard of it. Since it's none of my business, or yours for that matter, I wouldn't think to ask him.
There are some people who can learn some things from you about what is healthy and what is not regarding AS use. But I am not one of them. I am years ahead of you in this field and you're going to be playing catch up for the rest of your life. It's obvious from this thread that your ego has run away with your common sense but with all due respect, you will never know more than I do about steroid use. And you wouldn't last 2 posts with Macro so don't go there either.
I was corrected, Dr Scruggs has 17 years to your 2 not 15. I am not measuring his success financially. Again, I don't know what he makes and I don't care to so I wouldn't ask him about it.
I don't know what that's supposed to mean. The people at the University of Medicine and Science used 600mg/wk in their study and that's all I said about 600mg/wk.
What does this mean? They didn't mention the effects other than the effects they listed? Put the White Out cap back on the bottle doc.
If these researchers can get approval from this University to use 600mg/wk and they can get approval from the insurance carrier for the University and the carrier who underwrote the liability insurance for this study then they must have a pretty convincing argument for why it's safe to do. Don't you think? They didn't just administer 600mg/wk, THEY DID IT FOR 20 WEEKS, and if it wasn't safe then how do you suppose they got approval for it.
We are not talking about testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) here. No one said that. We are talking about what medical researchers feel is the safe top end dose to use Testosterone at for an extended period on healthy young males.
BTW this was also done at the University of Iowa with 500mg/wk.
I would think you would know all this being at the forefront of this field.
You're losing it doc. Let this stupid thread die rather than wallowing in it.
The Phone Guy
New member
I've sent an email to Mr. Joyce letting him know he's finally been asked to debate. Figure this will continue tomorrow morning. I have the feeling we may see them on at diffferent times, instead of the same times. For this reason, I took it upon myself to ask Paul to be on @ 10:00am PST. Would help if one of you let Swale know this too. Should be an interesting debate. I hope in the end both parties may co-exist on the board & provide us all an even broader perspective between the both of them. They may find they compliment each other more than they currently realize.
Schumacher
New member
Before this "debate" starts, maybe we should review some Bill Robert's (meso-rx & t-mag) recomendations...
Here are Bill Robert's recommendations for anciallaries:
- Clomid, Nolvadex or Arimidex throughout cycle to combat heighted estrogen
- 500 IU HCG each day throughout cycle to maintain testicle volume
- Clomid (50 mg) each day post cycle until natural testosterone production recovers
This is all from 2001 and earlier.
Sounds a lot like SWALE's post cycle therapy (pct) right? It should because SWALE was often on the t-mag message board when Bill Roberts posted there. SWALE basically rehashes Bill Roberts' work and calls it his own. Here is a link to the conversation that SWALE and Bill Roberts had on HCG dosing...
http://t-forums.t-mag.com/frameit.jsp?target=/readTopic.do?id=219902
I don't dislike SWALE, but I do think its unwise to consider someone a guru just because they say they are.
Here are Bill Robert's recommendations for anciallaries:
- Clomid, Nolvadex or Arimidex throughout cycle to combat heighted estrogen
- 500 IU HCG each day throughout cycle to maintain testicle volume
- Clomid (50 mg) each day post cycle until natural testosterone production recovers
This is all from 2001 and earlier.
Sounds a lot like SWALE's post cycle therapy (pct) right? It should because SWALE was often on the t-mag message board when Bill Roberts posted there. SWALE basically rehashes Bill Roberts' work and calls it his own. Here is a link to the conversation that SWALE and Bill Roberts had on HCG dosing...
http://t-forums.t-mag.com/frameit.jsp?target=/readTopic.do?id=219902
I don't dislike SWALE, but I do think its unwise to consider someone a guru just because they say they are.
Interesting. A guy who calls himself "Schumaker" shows up here, for his VERY FIRST POST EVER, to attack me. Did you think we wouldn't immediately catch onto your game? Hmmm...come on, Dude, we don't need that kind of sleaziness in this thread. We are trying to make this about the medicine involved now.
Bill Roberts has been unfairly attacked on the Boards, too, IMPO. He has done a lot for the science involved, and has always been a true gentleman. He gave me a lot of good advice a couple of years ago when I really needed it, and, as always, I shall never forget that.
When Bill told everyone to never take more than 1000IU per day, you have to understand THAT was somewhat revolutionary at the time. Look how many so-called "guru's" were advocating 2500, even 5000IU per day--and STILL do.
However, following more study, and labwork done on my patients, I decided to trim that number down even further. My ceiling is 500IU per day. Going over that dose is just more than the testes can use (which is also a waste of money--I always try to keep costs down for my guys), and dramatically increases aromatase activity. My testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) patients start at 250IU on the day of, and the day immediately previous to, their test cyp injections. The several reasons why I invented that particular protocol has been explained several times on this Board already, I think. If 250IU at a time is not enough, then we gradually increase the dose, with a maximum of 500IU per shot. If THAT isn't enough still (uncommon) then we reduce the dosage back down, and simply add in more days per week. Patient complience can be a problem sometimes, although not in this particular patient population.
As far as using 500IU every day, I recommended that, too, for awhile, for my Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) patients who wanted to do it. BTW, I never claimed this as my invention. However, I was the first to recognize that HCG is useful for HPTA suppressed individuals because it helps re-balance all three hormonal pathways (mineralcorticoids, glucocorticoids as well as the sex hormones) which are built from CHOL by stimulating the P450 SCC enzyme, as LH does, and therefore is healthful. Indeed, we see reduced pregnenolone concentrations (first step from CHOL, via the P450SCC enzyme, before branching to the three pathways) in HPTA-suppressed individuals. True Hormone Replacement Therapy (HRT) Medicine considers all players in the "hormonal symphony" and seeks to maintain proper balance amongst them.
I don't know what Bill's experience with this regimen is, as I have not had a chance to talk to him about it yet, but I found that 500IU per day--every day--is too much. Quite a few of the guys who tried it reported back that their testicles were becoming "mushy" from that much Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG). I think it might be due to loss of germinal tissue, which comprises about 85% of testicular mass, and requires FSH (which has comparable moiety to HCG, but very little activity therof). I don't think I have anyone who uses my daily HCG/weekly test cyp protocol (also new to testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) medicine) using over 300IU per day for that reason.
Just last week a guy came to me TOTALLY messed up hormonally from steroid use. You would recognize his face, as he has been on the covers of numerous magazines. He went to an Endocrinologist for his problems, who put him on 1750IU of HCG EOD. He was really bummed, as anyone would be, because he was still totally impotent (used Deca). Unfortunately, he had already tried Viagra, Levitra and Cialis, without response. As he was now under my care, I immediately switched him to 500IU per day (for a short run). Within a few days he reported back that he had achieved full sexual status. In fact, I think he worded it that "he had one hell of a good weekend". That is a pretty good day to be a doc! We are now moving his treatment regimen into the next phase.
A clarification should be made, too. Many Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) imbibers consider their last shot of steroids to be the end of their cycle. By the half-life of all meds involved, it cannot be thought of that way. Therefore using HCG for a week or ten days following that last injection is still using it "at the end of the cycle". THAT is how we were doing it way back in 1981, the year of my first steroid cycle. Funny, the more things change, the more they stay the same. I am just tuning up the quote from Mr. Roberts, as I am confident he would not mind.
As we go on, astute observers are finding that HCG is a much more powerful (and, I think, wonderful) hormone than we previously appreciated. Yet I STILL hear of Endocrinologists using 5000IU at a crack. They obviously do not know as much about HCG as we do here.
Bill Roberts has been unfairly attacked on the Boards, too, IMPO. He has done a lot for the science involved, and has always been a true gentleman. He gave me a lot of good advice a couple of years ago when I really needed it, and, as always, I shall never forget that.
When Bill told everyone to never take more than 1000IU per day, you have to understand THAT was somewhat revolutionary at the time. Look how many so-called "guru's" were advocating 2500, even 5000IU per day--and STILL do.
However, following more study, and labwork done on my patients, I decided to trim that number down even further. My ceiling is 500IU per day. Going over that dose is just more than the testes can use (which is also a waste of money--I always try to keep costs down for my guys), and dramatically increases aromatase activity. My testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) patients start at 250IU on the day of, and the day immediately previous to, their test cyp injections. The several reasons why I invented that particular protocol has been explained several times on this Board already, I think. If 250IU at a time is not enough, then we gradually increase the dose, with a maximum of 500IU per shot. If THAT isn't enough still (uncommon) then we reduce the dosage back down, and simply add in more days per week. Patient complience can be a problem sometimes, although not in this particular patient population.
As far as using 500IU every day, I recommended that, too, for awhile, for my Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) patients who wanted to do it. BTW, I never claimed this as my invention. However, I was the first to recognize that HCG is useful for HPTA suppressed individuals because it helps re-balance all three hormonal pathways (mineralcorticoids, glucocorticoids as well as the sex hormones) which are built from CHOL by stimulating the P450 SCC enzyme, as LH does, and therefore is healthful. Indeed, we see reduced pregnenolone concentrations (first step from CHOL, via the P450SCC enzyme, before branching to the three pathways) in HPTA-suppressed individuals. True Hormone Replacement Therapy (HRT) Medicine considers all players in the "hormonal symphony" and seeks to maintain proper balance amongst them.
I don't know what Bill's experience with this regimen is, as I have not had a chance to talk to him about it yet, but I found that 500IU per day--every day--is too much. Quite a few of the guys who tried it reported back that their testicles were becoming "mushy" from that much Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG). I think it might be due to loss of germinal tissue, which comprises about 85% of testicular mass, and requires FSH (which has comparable moiety to HCG, but very little activity therof). I don't think I have anyone who uses my daily HCG/weekly test cyp protocol (also new to testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) medicine) using over 300IU per day for that reason.
Just last week a guy came to me TOTALLY messed up hormonally from steroid use. You would recognize his face, as he has been on the covers of numerous magazines. He went to an Endocrinologist for his problems, who put him on 1750IU of HCG EOD. He was really bummed, as anyone would be, because he was still totally impotent (used Deca). Unfortunately, he had already tried Viagra, Levitra and Cialis, without response. As he was now under my care, I immediately switched him to 500IU per day (for a short run). Within a few days he reported back that he had achieved full sexual status. In fact, I think he worded it that "he had one hell of a good weekend". That is a pretty good day to be a doc! We are now moving his treatment regimen into the next phase.
A clarification should be made, too. Many Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) imbibers consider their last shot of steroids to be the end of their cycle. By the half-life of all meds involved, it cannot be thought of that way. Therefore using HCG for a week or ten days following that last injection is still using it "at the end of the cycle". THAT is how we were doing it way back in 1981, the year of my first steroid cycle. Funny, the more things change, the more they stay the same. I am just tuning up the quote from Mr. Roberts, as I am confident he would not mind.
As we go on, astute observers are finding that HCG is a much more powerful (and, I think, wonderful) hormone than we previously appreciated. Yet I STILL hear of Endocrinologists using 5000IU at a crack. They obviously do not know as much about HCG as we do here.
Actually, thank you, "Schumaker", for the link. Rereading that early post brought back fond memories for me.
Once I reread Mr. Roberts' reply, I see that "Schumaker" got it wrong there. Bill is saying that 250IU is plenty, which is the conclusion I also came to via clinical experience.
My research that day, as well as a discussion with a Professor of Biochemistry back at my medical school, led me top propose the hormonal-balancing ability of HCG in HPTA-suppressed individuals. This old thread was written just when I was beginning to ponder that. It was later confirmed inadvertently by an unrelated study, as well as actual laboratory testing. But what excited me most was subjective report of those who tried it. It seems like everyone tells me how much better they feel, and also very much enjoy the boost in libido HCG gives. I advance all of my testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) patients to this protocol who want it.
Funny, but the literature reports that it takes a while for HCG to begin working. But I have heard many tell me that they can feel it after only a couple of hours. I think HCG (like its analog, LH) has effects at many more tissues than we now know of.
I remember very well emerging from the Medical Library, after spending hours there (instead of studying what I was supposed to that day--oh well, the way things turned out, I guess that was actually the right thing to do. LOL) researching HCG, full of the knowledge of the experts that 5000IU is a perfectly good dose of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG). I just had a feeling that was not right, and that HCG would be plenty effective at doses only a fraction of that. I sure spent a lot of time thinking about HCG--still do. What an absolutely WONDERFUL hormone!
Moving the HCG injections consecutively, instead of "at equal intervals" as Bill wrote, was a big improvement, too. Careful and thoughtful analysis of the pharmacokinetics of HCG led to that one.
Of note, no one in testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) Medicine was using HCG on a weekly basis, along with a weekly test cyp injection, at that time, and this was really the point of my question to him. In fact, some of the finer minds in the field said it absolutely could not be done. It just seemd to make so much sense to me, from a variety of hormonal perspectives. Well, I am glad my patients do not know it cannot be done, because they all absolutely love the protocol (and all were properly tuned up on testosterone--whether test cyp or Androgel--first).
Once I reread Mr. Roberts' reply, I see that "Schumaker" got it wrong there. Bill is saying that 250IU is plenty, which is the conclusion I also came to via clinical experience.
My research that day, as well as a discussion with a Professor of Biochemistry back at my medical school, led me top propose the hormonal-balancing ability of HCG in HPTA-suppressed individuals. This old thread was written just when I was beginning to ponder that. It was later confirmed inadvertently by an unrelated study, as well as actual laboratory testing. But what excited me most was subjective report of those who tried it. It seems like everyone tells me how much better they feel, and also very much enjoy the boost in libido HCG gives. I advance all of my testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) patients to this protocol who want it.
Funny, but the literature reports that it takes a while for HCG to begin working. But I have heard many tell me that they can feel it after only a couple of hours. I think HCG (like its analog, LH) has effects at many more tissues than we now know of.
I remember very well emerging from the Medical Library, after spending hours there (instead of studying what I was supposed to that day--oh well, the way things turned out, I guess that was actually the right thing to do. LOL) researching HCG, full of the knowledge of the experts that 5000IU is a perfectly good dose of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG). I just had a feeling that was not right, and that HCG would be plenty effective at doses only a fraction of that. I sure spent a lot of time thinking about HCG--still do. What an absolutely WONDERFUL hormone!
Moving the HCG injections consecutively, instead of "at equal intervals" as Bill wrote, was a big improvement, too. Careful and thoughtful analysis of the pharmacokinetics of HCG led to that one.
Of note, no one in testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) Medicine was using HCG on a weekly basis, along with a weekly test cyp injection, at that time, and this was really the point of my question to him. In fact, some of the finer minds in the field said it absolutely could not be done. It just seemd to make so much sense to me, from a variety of hormonal perspectives. Well, I am glad my patients do not know it cannot be done, because they all absolutely love the protocol (and all were properly tuned up on testosterone--whether test cyp or Androgel--first).
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