The mystery of anadrol

[JuiceAuthority]

Originally Posted by JuiceAuthority
I was comparing drol to other 17aas. It no more anabolic than Winstrol (winny) and less androgenic. Anavar (var) is much more anabolic than drol and less androgenic as well.

RA64:
Ok now that statement is total bullshit.

I have ran Anadrol-50 back in the 90's and also Anavar (var) and Winstrol (winny), and it kicks both of those compounds ass.

Wow, this is all over the place. You disagree with yourself and agree with RA, while then still disagreeing with yourself and RA on the same subject.

I was agreeing with some of statements made about the "ratios" being bogus indicators. I wasn't the one who started the ratio debate. Of course drol is stronger than Winstrol (winny) or Anavar (var) , effect wise, but if you base that off the ratios it's misleading.

 

[JuiceAuthority]

I firmly believe this asshat is here to do nothing but ruffle feathers as that is all he has done in the past week. He is contradicting himself left and right, which only further proves that point.

And I'll paste it here as you didn't even read the thread about it. You just spit out some parroted bullshit like every other know it all on this board. They are two different tissues, thus the up and down regulation of the PgR.

Now please stop with this nonsense. You sound like an idiot.

Hey DET - do you know what SERM even stands for?

Actually, if we (myself included) took a step back and didn't take shots at each other (I'm guilty of this too) and engaged in dialog that wasn't about who's right or wrong, or proving a point to show how intelligent we are, it would probably lead to a much better and informative discussion. Why don't we try that and see how it goes for the rest of the thread.

 

[3J]

im having alotta fun reading this...

its like i put 3 pitbulls in a cage and hung a ribeye offa each ones collar..

please.. continue.. lmfao

 

[JuiceAuthority]

RJ - In spirit of "toning it down" do you agree with the following - Estrogen indirectly influences progesterone levels? If you concur with that, is it then "logical" to presume we can indirectly influence progesterone levels by keeping estrogen levels in check? I want to expand on this BUT let's first reach concurrence on this point.

Below is talking point to that, but we'll get to that later.

Influence of estrogen plus progestin on breast cancer and mammography in healthy postmenopausal women: the Women's Health Initiative Randomized Trial.

Chlebowski RT, Hendrix SL, Langer RD, Stefanick ML, Gass M, Lane D, Rodabough RJ, Gilligan MA, Cyr MG, Thomson CA, Khandekar J, Petrovitch H, McTiernan A; WHI Investigators.

Harbor-UCLA Research and Education Institute, Torrance 90502, USA. rchlebowski@rei.edu

Comment in:

* ACP J Club. 2003 Nov-Dec;139(3):61.
* JAMA. 2003 Jun 25;289(24):3304-6.
* JAMA. 2004 Aug 11;292(6):683; author reply 685-6.
* Evid Based Nurs. 2004 Jan;7(1):16.

Abstract

CONTEXT: The Women's Health Initiative trial of combined estrogen plus progestin was stopped early when overall health risks, including invasive breast cancer, exceeded benefits. Outstanding issues not previously addressed include characteristics of breast cancers observed among women using hormones and whether diagnosis may be influenced by hormone effects on mammography.

OBJECTIVE: To determine the relationship among estrogen plus progestin use, breast cancer characteristics, and mammography recommendations.

DESIGN, SETTING, AND PARTICIPANTS: Following a comprehensive breast cancer risk assessment, 16 608 postmenopausal women aged 50 to 79 years with an intact uterus were randomly assigned to receive combined conjugated equine estrogens (0.625 mg/d) plus medroxyprogesterone acetate (2.5 mg/d) or placebo from 1993 to 1998 at 40 clinical centers. Screening mammography and clinical breast examinations were performed at baseline and yearly thereafter.

MAIN OUTCOME MEASURES: Breast cancer number and characteristics, and frequency of abnormal mammograms by estrogen plus progestin exposure.

RESULTS: In intent-to-treat analyses, estrogen plus progestin increased total (245 vs 185 cases; hazard ratio

---

, 1.24; weighted P<.001) and invasive (199 vs 150 cases; HR, 1.24; weighted P =.003) breast cancers compared with placebo. The invasive breast cancers diagnosed in the estrogen plus progestin group were similar in histology and grade but were larger (mean [SD], 1.7 cm [1.1] vs 1.5 cm [0.9], respectively; P =.04) and were at more advanced stage (regional/metastatic 25.4% vs 16.0%, respectively; P =.04) compared with those diagnosed in the placebo group. After 1 year, the percentage of women with abnormal mammograms was substantially greater in the estrogen plus progestin group (716 [9.4%] of 7656) compared with placebo group (398 [5.4%] of 7310; P<.001), a pattern which continued for the study duration.

CONCLUSIONS: Relatively short-term combined estrogen plus progestin use increases incident breast cancers, which are diagnosed at a more advanced stage compared with placebo use, and also substantially increases the percentage of women with abnormal mammograms. These results suggest estrogen plus progestin may stimulate breast cancer growth and hinder breast cancer diagnosis.

PMID: 12824205 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

 

[THE-DET-OAK]

That said Aroma is far superior to Nolva for estro control AND estrogen related gyno. It deactivates the aromatase enzyme, reduces circulating estrogen in the body and reverses the early stages gyno before it hardens. Why take Nolva instead of Aroma? Nolva prevents estrogen from binding to the ER. It sucks as an anti-e.

It is clear that you really have no idea what your talking about. It is also clear that you are new to the information you are trying to convey to others, I would do more research if I were you.

You are making this waaaay more complicated than it has to be.

First of all AI's are not anti-e's. SERM's are anti-e's. This is because the act like an estrogen in some tissues and anti-estrogens in other tissues.

While Aromasin is a great way to control estrogen it is not very effective at treating gyno, because it has a very low binding affinity to the aromatase enzyme. I think you have confused yourself and think since it is a "suicidal inhibitor" that it is very strong. Well its not the case at all.

 

[JuiceAuthority]

It is clear that you really have no idea what your talking about. It is also clear that you are new to the information you are trying to convey to others, I would do more research if I were you.

You are making this waaaay more complicated than it has to be.

First of all AI's are not anti-e's. SERM's are anti-e's. This is because the act like an estrogen in some tissues and anti-estrogens in other tissues.

While Aromasin is a great way to control estrogen it is not very effective at treating gyno, because it has a very low binding affinity to the aromatase enzyme. I think you have confused yourself and think since it is a "suicidal inhibitor" that it is very strong. Well its not the case at all.

LMAO!! Yawn. OMG. Where do I start?? Ahhhhh. Ok, where did I say or even suggest an Aromatase inhibitor (AI) is an anti-e????????? I said Aroma, which is an Aromatase inhibitor (AI) just like letro and a-dex, is superior to Nolva, which is a SERM, for the reasons stated.

People use SERMs AND AIs for estro control and gyno prevention. I also said Nolva is weak anti-e, WHICH IT IS!!!! I haven't confused shit. Let put it even more "clearly" so you can follow (slowly) what I'm saying here....I would rather use Aroma (an AI) than Nolva (a SERM) for estro control AND gyno prevention.

ARE YOU WITH ME NOW??? Talk to me.

 

[THE-DET-OAK]

Nolva prevents estrogen from binding to the ER. It sucks as an anti-e.

ok your still not getting it so I will slow it down for you.

Please explain how Nolva sucks as an anti-e?

secondly now you are trying to prove some point that its better to tak an Aromatase inhibitor (AI) over a SERM to control estrogen. No shit sherlock that is common knowledge.

My point is taking an Aromatase inhibitor (AI) for drol gyno will not be effective. The reason is because you are not getting gyno from high amounts of estrogen, you are getting gyno because the drol is up-regulating the estrogen receptor. Just lowering estrogen is not gonna cut it, unless you used a full dose of letro in which case you would wipe out 99% of the estrogen in your body.

even if you took drol without testosterone you could still get gyno, not from high circulating estrogen but because your body is so much more sensitive to estrogen. so what the fuck would be the point in lowering estrogen? unless you wiped it out completely which we want to stay away from.

Now before I go any further I would love for you to explain your above post that I quoted.

 

[RJ]

RJ - In spirit of "toning it down" do you agree with the following - Estrogen indirectly influences progesterone levels? If you concur with that, is it then "logical" to presume we can indirectly influence progesterone levels by keeping estrogen levels in check? I want to expand on this BUT let's first reach concurrence on this point.

Below is talking point to that, but we'll get to that later.

Influence of estrogen plus progestin on breast cancer and mammography in healthy postmenopausal women: the Women's Health Initiative Randomized Trial.

Chlebowski RT, Hendrix SL, Langer RD, Stefanick ML, Gass M, Lane D, Rodabough RJ, Gilligan MA, Cyr MG, Thomson CA, Khandekar J, Petrovitch H, McTiernan A; WHI Investigators.

Harbor-UCLA Research and Education Institute, Torrance 90502, USA. rchlebowski@rei.edu

Comment in:

* ACP J Club. 2003 Nov-Dec;139(3):61.
* JAMA. 2003 Jun 25;289(24):3304-6.
* JAMA. 2004 Aug 11;292(6):683; author reply 685-6.
* Evid Based Nurs. 2004 Jan;7(1):16.

Abstract

CONTEXT: The Women's Health Initiative trial of combined estrogen plus progestin was stopped early when overall health risks, including invasive breast cancer, exceeded benefits. Outstanding issues not previously addressed include characteristics of breast cancers observed among women using hormones and whether diagnosis may be influenced by hormone effects on mammography.

OBJECTIVE: To determine the relationship among estrogen plus progestin use, breast cancer characteristics, and mammography recommendations.

DESIGN, SETTING, AND PARTICIPANTS: Following a comprehensive breast cancer risk assessment, 16 608 postmenopausal women aged 50 to 79 years with an intact uterus were randomly assigned to receive combined conjugated equine estrogens (0.625 mg/d) plus medroxyprogesterone acetate (2.5 mg/d) or placebo from 1993 to 1998 at 40 clinical centers. Screening mammography and clinical breast examinations were performed at baseline and yearly thereafter.

MAIN OUTCOME MEASURES: Breast cancer number and characteristics, and frequency of abnormal mammograms by estrogen plus progestin exposure.

RESULTS: In intent-to-treat analyses, estrogen plus progestin increased total (245 vs 185 cases; hazard ratio

---

, 1.24; weighted P<.001) and invasive (199 vs 150 cases; HR, 1.24; weighted P =.003) breast cancers compared with placebo. The invasive breast cancers diagnosed in the estrogen plus progestin group were similar in histology and grade but were larger (mean [SD], 1.7 cm [1.1] vs 1.5 cm [0.9], respectively; P =.04) and were at more advanced stage (regional/metastatic 25.4% vs 16.0%, respectively; P =.04) compared with those diagnosed in the placebo group. After 1 year, the percentage of women with abnormal mammograms was substantially greater in the estrogen plus progestin group (716 [9.4%] of 7656) compared with placebo group (398 [5.4%] of 7310; P<.001), a pattern which continued for the study duration.

CONCLUSIONS: Relatively short-term combined estrogen plus progestin use increases incident breast cancers, which are diagnosed at a more advanced stage compared with placebo use, and also substantially increases the percentage of women with abnormal mammograms. These results suggest estrogen plus progestin may stimulate breast cancer growth and hinder breast cancer diagnosis.

PMID: 12824205 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

---

ok, listen man. i don't have to tone anything down. I'm not the one acting like a know it all.

You keep posting studies and shit and that doesn't mean shit to me. Real world experience like what DaDawg said is what is truth in this game.

What i don't understand is why you constantly argue with people for no reason because you can't admit you're wrong. Which you are on many levels.

You know how many people have success using Nolva as an anti-E? A shitload. AIs haven't been popular THAT long.

Stop trying to prove how smart you are and just listen to experience. I never admit to knowing everything. Yes, i am an asshole, but that doesn't mean i know everything.

All you have done in your recent posts in the last week or so is try and prove you are right and everyone else is wrong, that is why you are so fucking annoying to everyone else.

Of course I can agree that estro directly effects progesterone, i posted it in my thread i linked in this thread... which you obviously didn't read even after i asked you to twice, and Det asked you to once. You were just too busy wanting to sound smart you glossed right over it.

That is why i have no interest in 'toning it down' until you stop with the arrogance. You don't know everything. stop acting like you do.

 

[Life_judge]

His answer was in the thread at least 3 times? I havent learned shit from this tool in any thread he has posted, learned more from the replies. Have Fun with your bitch tits man.

 

[**west**]

This is 20 Min I can never get back, moving on

 

[JuiceAuthority]

ok your still not getting it so I will slow it down for you.

Please explain how Nolva sucks as an anti-e?

secondly now you are trying to prove some point that its better to tak an Aromatase inhibitor (AI) over a SERM to control estrogen. No shit sherlock that is common knowledge.

My point is taking an Aromatase inhibitor (AI) for drol gyno will not be effective. The reason is because you are not getting gyno from high amounts of estrogen, you are getting gyno because the drol is up-regulating the estrogen receptor. Just lowering estrogen is not gonna cut it, unless you used a full dose of letro in which case you would wipe out 99% of the estrogen in your body.

even if you took drol without testosterone you could still get gyno, not from high circulating estrogen but because your body is so much more sensitive to estrogen. so what the fuck would be the point in lowering estrogen? unless you wiped it out completely which we want to stay away from.

Now before I go any further I would love for you to explain your above post that I quoted.

Ok numbnuts, Nolva does not prevent the aromatization but only acts as an estrogen antagonist. Aroma does. It does not prevent test from converting into estrogens but only fights with them in a sort of "competition" for the estrogen receptors. Aroma does both. Is that a sufficient enough explanation for you?

 

[JuiceAuthority]

My point is taking an Aromatase inhibitor (AI) for drol gyno will not be effective. The reason is because you are not getting gyno from high amounts of estrogen, you are getting gyno because the drol is up-regulating the estrogen receptor. Just lowering estrogen is not gonna cut it, unless you used a full dose of letro in which case you would wipe out 99% of the estrogen in your body..

And my point is I'm running Deca with Test and drol. Nolva up-regulars the PgR. Drol doesn't aromatize into estrogen. There is NO point to taking Nolva with drol either, especially when running a progestin. You have a goodnight. Bottom-line is I'm dropping drol as of today so this convo is now moot for me.

Here's a question for you brainchild....what happens when you don't run and Aromatase inhibitor (AI) with Test and Deca or Tren? Progesterone loves and estrogen rich environment. We can lower estro levels but what about progesterone? What do we do about that? I'm sure you have the answer. What lowers elevated progesterone levels?

As an aside, Progesterone is the building block for many other major hormones. Cortisol, testosterone and estrogen are all made from progesterone in a process that begins with cholesterol. Read it up on it.

 

[burlyman]

And my point is I'm running Deca with Test and drol. Nolva up-regulars the PgR. Drol doesn't aromatize into estrogen. There is NO point to taking Nolva with drol either, especially when running a progestin. You have a goodnight. Bottom-line is I'm dropping drol as of today so this convo is now moot for me.

Seems like if this would have been your first response, none of this bickering would have wasted anyone's time while solving nothing.

In case you are not aware of it, you have an uncanny knack for being antagonistic or creating antagonism. I'm not going to say that you are completely responsible for this; however, the way you convey your information, or your retorts does not lend itself to discussion, but always seems to lead to antagonistic debate.

I'd say part of this stems from your nickname, indicating you ARE the authority. And the other part stems from you acting as if you know all the answers, when clearly you do not. Neither do I. Neither does anyone else.

This is not meant to be abrasive or accusatory. It is simply an observation. I would anticipate that some minor changes in your approach and delivery would result in some less harsh debate, rather than something that ends in unnecessary name calling.

Take it for what it's worth.

 

[THE-DET-OAK]

Ok numbnuts, Nolva does not prevent the aromatization but only acts as an estrogen antagonist. Aroma does. It does not prevent test from converting into estrogens but only fights with them in a sort of "competition" for the estrogen receptors. Aroma does both. Is that a sufficient enough explanation for you?

Im really sorry im about to make you look so stupid on both of your recent posts but your beggin for it buddy.

Antiestrogen: A substance that can prevent the full expression of estrogen.

Antiestrogens act by exerting antagonistic effects on target tissues (androgens and progestogens act in this way) or by competing with estrogens for access to receptor sites located on the cell surface.
For example, the drug tamoxifen (brand name: Nolvadex) is an antiestrogen that is used in the treatment of breast cancer and to reduce the breast cancer incidence in high-risk women.
Antiestrogen definition - Medical Dictionary definitions of popular medical terms easily defined on MedTerms

This is what I mean you dont even know WTF you are talking about smarty pants. Sounds to me like Anti-E's are compounds that block estrogen from the receptor, therefore Nolva would be a pretty damn good one.

That is what I mean, here you are trying to tell people whats right and you dont even fully understand how these things are different from each other.

Lastly Nolva is pretty good at reducing gyno, even pre-existing gyno, there are studies to back it up.

It wasnt until 2001 when they did a study on hypo men with pre-existing gyno. These were men where nolva did not work. Arimadex did reduce the gyno.

Letro is far more powerful than Arimadex, yet works the same way that Adex does. Letro is the best there is for gyno, it even reduces prog slightly.

Ive told you 800 times though, your situation is a little different. Yea your on cycle so it would probably be good to control estrogen with an Aromatase inhibitor (AI), but the reason you got gyno was because the drol up-regulated the estro receptor, most likely. SOOOOOOOOO reducing estrogen may/prolly will have little effect. You need to temporarily stop the estro receptors from recieving estrogen, while controlling estro levels with an Aromatase inhibitor (AI) in the longterm for a lot more reasons than just gyno.

since it was the receptors that got us into this mess, we have to manipulate those. if it was the estrogen that caused this mess, an Aromatase inhibitor (AI) only would have been advised.

 

[THE-DET-OAK]

Here's a question for you brainchild....what happens when you don't run and Aromatase inhibitor (AI) with Test and Deca or Tren?

what happens to me? I get fucking huge, and most of the time I dont run an Aromatase inhibitor (AI), and I have never had one bit of gyno. Never ran a dop agonist either.

As an aside, Progesterone is the building block for many other major hormones. Cortisol, testosterone and estrogen are all made from progesterone in a process that begins with cholesterol. Read it up on it.

wow I didnt know guys made estrogen? I thought we aromatised our testosterone to get estrogen...............................

 

[THE-DET-OAK]

BTW AI'S are NOT anti-e's they are aromatase inhibitors.

aromatase inhibitors dont block anything. they inhibit the aromtase enzyme. The enzyme that turns testosterone into estrogen. This does not mean that there is 0 aromatase. It just means it is reduced. How long it is reduced, and the number of enzymes that get reduced, either temporarily or permanently depend on the compound used and dosage.

 

[JuiceAuthority]

Seems like if this would have been your first response, none of this bickering would have wasted anyone's time while solving nothing.

In case you are not aware of it, you have an uncanny knack for being antagonistic or creating antagonism. I'm not going to say that you are completely responsible for this; however, the way you convey your information, or your retorts does not lend itself to discussion, but always seems to lead to antagonistic debate.

I'd say part of this stems from your nickname, indicating you ARE the authority. And the other part stems from you acting as if you know all the answers, when clearly you do not. Neither do I. Neither does anyone else.

This is not meant to be abrasive or accusatory. It is simply an observation. I would anticipate that some minor changes in your approach and delivery would result in some less harsh debate, rather than something that ends in unnecessary name calling.

Take it for what it's worth.

After being on the forums for over a decade you learn to develop thick skin and not take things (flaming) personally.

My handle was meant as a joke back in late 1999. I was banned from Wannabebig.com (I still get spam mail from them) and re-registered as Juice Authority to piss them off. The name just stuck ever since.

We never enter into debates like this on the boards I Mod or where I'm a member. No one cares. It's all about personal experience.

Anywho, this thread has some potential if we want to continue it as a discussion instead of a flame fest. Understanding the relationship between estrogen, progesterone, prolactin and testosterone is a very complicated subject that science is still trying to figure out.

Striking a balance between these hormones and the drugs that help do so is a topic most endocrinologists are struggling with even though they're the "hormone specialists".

 

[JuiceAuthority]

wow I didnt know guys made estrogen? I thought we aromatised our testosterone to get estrogen...............................

You didn't huh? Well, you learn something new everyday, lol. Yes, men produce estrogen too you buffoon. Please stop posting (for your own sake).

 

[THE-DET-OAK]

You didn't huh? Well, you learn something new everyday, lol. Yes, men produce estrogen too you buffoon. Please stop posting (for your own sake).

hahahahahahah your killing me bro. Ive have totally owned you on this thread, yet you still somehow post that you actually taught me something? men dont produce estrogen, the aromatise testosterone.

How come no reply to my other posts?

 

[RA64]

Striking a balance between these hormones and the drugs that help do so is a topic most endocrinologists are struggling with even though they're the "hormone specialists".

All the Endocrinologists I have met and talked with are fucking idoits, and no way are they hormone specialists.