The mystery of anadrol

[glubgawd]

Debate over. I win:

YouTube - Take Your Pants Off

 

[JuiceAuthority]

hahahahahahah your killing me bro. Ive have totally owned you on this thread, yet you still somehow post that you actually taught me something? men dont produce estrogen, the aromatise testosterone.

How come no reply to my other posts?

Instead of debating with you I'll just point you to a wikipedia site. At this point it's important that you understand the basics.

Estrogen - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

While oestrogens are present in both men and women, they are usually present at significantly higher levels in women of reproductive age. They promote the development of female secondary sexual characteristics, such as breasts, and are also involved in the thickening of the endometrium and other aspects of regulating the menstrual cycle. In males, oestrogen regulates certain functions of the reproductive system important to the maturation of sperm[10][11][12] and may be necessary for a healthy libido.[13][14] Furthermore, there are several other structural changes induced by oestrogen in addition to other functions.

 

[THE-DET-OAK]

whats your point? like i said yes estrogen is in our bodies, but we dont MAKE it we aromataize testosterone, the end result is estrogen.

so what the fuck is your point?

 

[glubgawd]

whats your point? like i said yes estrogen is in our bodies, but we dont MAKE it we aromataize testosterone, the end result is estrogen.

so what the fuck is your point?

at this point i think he's just trying to flirt with you Oak.....just you wait. he'll try and be all smooth and be like "we should finish this debate via a phone convo.....what's your number?"

 

[JuiceAuthority]

All the Endocrinologists I have met and talked with are fucking idoits, and no way are they hormone specialists.

That has been my experience too. One Endo referred to an HRT-like clinic specializing in natural medicines. My PCP is a former pro baseball player and thankfully understands hormone therapy.

 

[JuiceAuthority]

at this point i think he's just trying to flirt with you Oak.....just you wait. he'll try and be all smooth and be like "we should finish this debate via a phone convo.....what's your number?"

Not a bad idea. We can set a conference bridge. It's free. That would be fun. Take the debate live!!!

Free Conference Call

 

[JuiceAuthority]

Lastly Nolva is pretty good at reducing gyno, even pre-existing gyno, there are studies to back it up.

It wasnt until 2001 when they did a study on hypo men with pre-existing gyno. These were men where nolva did not work. Arimadex did reduce the gyno.

Letro is far more powerful than Arimadex, yet works the same way that Adex does. Letro is the best there is for gyno, it even reduces prog slightly.

Nolva sucks at reversing gyno. This is one of the better posts I've read on the topic. Now hush your mouth, read, digest, reflect, and be grateful. And you're contradicting yourself because letro, to you later point, is a much better option (I prefer aromasin though). Group hug???

I am posting this thread to help answer all of the questions regarding gyno prevention and reversal, the use of letrozole and other anti-e***8217;s. I will go over everything in very simple easy to understand language. Also we are talking about estrogen gyno here, not progesterone (but using letro will stop progesterone related problems as well since it inhibits all estrogen anyways). Progesterone gyno will be enlargement of your nipple area, the actual aereola, not a lump under it.

Let me make this first point very clear, as I state in my signature this is from my personal experience, so whether you agree with it or not is your own issue. I have helped many people with gyno and it has worked just fine for them as well.

To first understand why you are doing what you are doing I am going to go over a few things and a few definitions:

SERM ***8211; Selective estrogen receptor modulator. These drugs work by binding to the estrogen receptors and flooding them in a sense, making it difficult (but not impossible by any means) for estrogen to bind to the receptors and thus prevent the onset of estrogen related side effects.
Most common forms: Tamoxifen (Nolvadex), Clomiphene (Clomid)
AI ***8211; Aromatise Inhibitor. These drugs work by inhibiting the aromatization of estrogen. This means that in effect AI***8217;s prevent androgens from converting to estrogen, again, making it difficult (but not impossible) for estrogen to reach receptor sites.
Most common forms: Anastrozole (l-dex, a-dex), Exemestane (aromasin), Femera (letrozole). For our purpose of reversing gyno we are interested in Letro.

Letro and your sex drive:
Letrozole will suppress your sex drive. This is another reason why it is so important to act on preventing gyno as soon as possible. Since we all know that Test should be run in every cycle this will cancel out the effect of sex drive suppression.

Running letro to prevent gyno:
If you decide to run estrogen protection while on cycle (and I suggest you do unless you are aware that you do not require it), you can run either a SERM or an Aromatase inhibitor (AI). Letro will be the most powerful Aromatase inhibitor (AI) you can use, it will inhibit 98+% of estrogen using a dose as low as .25mg and even lower. This is why I suggest you do not use a dose higher than .50mg while on cycle just trying to prevent estrogen related side effects.

You will want to start running the letro approximately 2 weeks before you begin your cycle to allow it to fully stabilize in your blood. I have often heard the argument that letro takes up to 60 days to stabilize, I don***8217;t know if I buy into this for the reason that I have reversed gyno after using letro for only 1 week. Still to be safe I recommend starting it before your cycle as stated above.

If you do decide to run letro there is absolutely no need to run another Aromatase inhibitor (AI) or SERM. Do not make the mistake of thinking more is better. Think of it this way; if letro is preventing the conversion of androgens to estrogen than there is no estrogen, what would the purpose of a SERM be when there is no estrogen to bind to the receptors? Nolva will only take away from the effectiveness of letro.

This brings me to my next point. Do not listen to anyone who tells you to bump up your nolvadex to 60+mg ED if you get gyno. I have no idea where this idea started but I have seen it suggest far too many times recently. Nolvadex will do nothing to reverse your gyno***8230;let me make that clear IT WILL DO NOTHING FOR GYNO. If you are running nolva as your anti-e and start to develop gyno than sure you can bump the dosage a small amount to try to prevent it from progressing further, but letrozole must begin ASAP.

It is very important that you begin taking letrozole immediately, the longer your wait the more risk you take in not being able to reverse it.

How do I know if I have gyno?
If you have developed gyno you will have a lump behind your nipple. It will be fairly hard, and it will be tender to touch.

Running letro to reverse gyno:
I am going to go over the three different scenarios which people could fit into. Remember regardless of what scenario you are in it is important that you begin taking the letro ASAP.

1. Already using an anti-e aside from letro.
2. Already using letro @ a dose of .25mg or .50mg ED.
3. Not running any estrogen protection.

1.
Day 1: .25mg Letro + anti-e*
Day 2: .50mg Letro
Day 3: 1.0mg Letro
Day 4: 1.5mg Letro
Day 5: 2.0mg Letro
Day 6: 2.5mg Letro **

2.
Day 1: .50mg Letro
Day 2: 1.0mg Letro
Day 3: 1.5mg Letro
Day 4: 2.0mg Letro
Day 5: 2.5mg Letro **

3.
Day 1: .50mg Letro
Day 2: 1.0mg Letro
Day 3: 1.5mg Letro
Day 4: 2.0mg Letro
Day 5: 2.5mg Letro **

*Regardless of the anti-e you are using it is important to still use it for the first day you begin letro as the letro will not have taken any effect and you by no means want your body to be without any protection when gyno is already prevalent.

** You will remain at this dose until gyno symptoms subside. Once you believe your gyno is gone it is important to stay at this dose for another 4-7 days to ensure all traces are gone. I recommend people with a bf% over 15 stay on for a week as it may be harder to judge completely whether the lump is completely gone. Once this period is over it will be important to taper letro down slowly rather than coming off it completely. Regardless of which manner you tapered up your dose you will all taper down in the same fashion.

Day 1: 2.0mg
Day 2: 1.5mg
Day 3: 1.0mg
Day 4: .50mg***
Day 5: .25mg
***You can remain at this dose or go down further to .25mg. It is really up to you at this point. They are both very common maintenance doses as an anti-e while on cycle. Personally I have stayed with .25mg and never had a problem.

Letro and the estrogen rebound:
With your estrogen being completely inhibited there is a definite estrogen rebound as your body tries to re-stabilize the testosterone:estrogen balance. We can prevent this rebound effect by supplementing further with another Aromatase inhibitor (AI) or SERM. So, I suggest that when you are coming to the end of your cycle you will more than likely be using Nolva in your PCT so just make sure that you begin taking nolva the last day you are going to take your letro and then continue on as you would with regular PCT.

This now leads us into the question of reversing gyno while not on cycle. There are a few things to remember here. You have already waited longer than you should have, and your sex drive will be shot. You can use tribulus or another natural test booster to help you in this scenario but I can***8217;t guarantee the effectiveness. Just follow gyno reversal protocols 2 or 3. When coming off again you must taper and begin using nolvadex to prevent any rebound effect that may occur.

How much nolvadex should you use if you are not going into PCT and running this off cycle? I suggest starting at 20mg ED for a week and then lowering it to 10mg for another week and then coming off completely.

I hope this covers most of the issues, still feel free to PM me if you have questions. But make sure you read the entire post first.

I will ignore PM's that have an answer covered in this post already.

 

[THE-DET-OAK]

No your fucking wrong again, and im not grouping hugging nobody til you fucking admit it.

I said Letro is the best at gyno, not aromasin like you tried to say, you thought suicidal meant it was better.

YOUR situation is different though, you just started to get gyno. so there is no point in totally crashing your estrogen with high doses of letro, cause that sucks. you got gyno because the of your estro receptors NOT from high estrogen.

Would wiping out all estrogen with letro work? yes. will that be a harsh way of solving a minor problem? yes.

So taking the nolva now will stop the gyno from progressing immediately, how long do you think it will take for letro to build in blood? at least a week.

so you sir are just wrong in every post you have made. Not to mention the fact that you are trying to now convince me that estrogen is made through the initiation of cholesterol into pregnelone, via the p 450 side chain enzyme, when in fact that is not the case. that is how we make testosterone, we then take testosterone and turn into estrogen.

you dont have to listen to me but i know im right, you need something to block the receptors until the drol fully clears your system, or else your gyno will just get worse, regardless of your estrogen levels.

it would take a month of nolva to up reg PGR so that it would be effected by deca. Intitially it actually down regulates the PGR, at this point beneifiting your situation. you only need the nolva for 10 days or so, if you run an Aromatase inhibitor (AI) simultaneously they should have your estro down by then, hopefully.

 

[3J]

Great post DET

 

[THE-DET-OAK]

BTW ive read at least 20 different letro reversal threads, and even guided others through the process and helped them rid themselves of minor gyno.

 

[JuiceAuthority]

No your fucking wrong again, and im not grouping hugging nobody til you fucking admit it.

I said Letro is the best at gyno, not aromasin like you tried to say, you thought suicidal meant it was better.

YOUR situation is different though, you just started to get gyno. so there is no point in totally crashing your estrogen with high doses of letro, cause that sucks. you got gyno because the of your estro receptors NOT from high estrogen.

Would wiping out all estrogen with letro work? yes. will that be a harsh way of solving a minor problem? yes.

So taking the nolva now will stop the gyno from progressing immediately, how long do you think it will take for letro to build in blood? at least a week.

so you sir are just wrong in every post you have made. Not to mention the fact that you are trying to now convince me that estrogen is made through the initiation of cholesterol into pregnelone, via the p 450 side chain enzyme, when in fact that is not the case. that is how we make testosterone, we then take testosterone and turn into estrogen.

you dont have to listen to me but i know im right, you need something to block the receptors until the drol fully clears your system, or else your gyno will just get worse, regardless of your estrogen levels.

it would take a month of nolva to up reg PGR so that it would be effected by deca. Intitially it actually down regulates the PGR, at this point beneifiting your situation. you only need the nolva for 10 days or so, if you run an Aromatase inhibitor (AI) simultaneously they should have your estro down by then, hopefully.

Sweetie, running letro with Nolva decreases any positive benefit of Nolva by up to 40% (also confirmed by studies). I'll stick to my aroma. It doesn't kill my libido and it works for the indicated purpose without up-regulating the PgR.

 

[THE-DET-OAK]

fucking wrong again-it is the Aromatase inhibitor (AI) that is diminished by the use of a SERM not the other way around.

although Aromasin, since its a type I inhibitor, is not effected by the concurrent use of a SERM.

I will say again since you do not understand, Nolva will down reg the PGR, temporarily.

 

[JuiceAuthority]

fucking wrong again-it is the Aromatase inhibitor (AI) that is diminished by the use of a SERM not the other way around.

although Aromasin, since its a type I inhibitor is not effected by the concurrent use of a SERM.

True. I did have it backwards. My bad. See, I can admit when I misstate things.

Impact of tamoxifen on the pharmacokinetics and en... [Clin Cancer Res. 1999] - PubMed result

Impact of tamoxifen on the pharmacokinetics and endocrine effects of the aromatase inhibitor letrozole in postmenopausal women with breast cancer.
Dowsett M, Pfister C, Johnston SR, Miles DW, Houston SJ, Verbeek JA, Gundacker H, Sioufi A, Smith IE.

Department of Biochemistry, Royal Marsden Hospital, London, United Kingdom.
Abstract

This study examined whether the addition of tamoxifen to the treatment regimen of patients with advanced breast cancer being treated with the aromatase inhibitor letrozole led to any pharmacokinetic or pharmacodynamic interaction. Twelve of 17 patients completed the core period of the trial in which 2.5 mg/day letrozole was administered alone for 6 weeks and in combination with 20 mg/day tamoxifen for the subsequent 6 weeks. Patients responding to treatment continued on the combination until progression of disease or any other reason for discontinuation. Plasma levels of letrozole were measured at the end of the 6-week periods of treatment with letrozole alone and the combination and once more between 4 and 8 months on combination therapy. No further measurements were done thereafter. Hormone levels were measured at 2-week intervals throughout the core period. Marked suppression of estradiol, estrone, and estrone sulfate occurred with letrozole treatment, and this was not significantly affected by the addition of tamoxifen. However, plasma levels of letrozole were reduced by a mean 37.6% during combination therapy (P<0.0001), and this reduction persisted after 4-8 months of combination therapy. Letrozole is the first drug to be described in which this pharmacokinetic interaction occurs with tamoxifen. The mechanism is likely to be a consequence of an induction of letrozole-metabolizing enzymes by tamoxifen but was not further addressed in this study. It is possible that the antitumor efficacy of letrozole may be affected. Thus, sequential therapy may be preferable with these two drugs. It is not known whether tamoxifen interacts with other members of this class of drugs or with other drugs in combination.

 

[THE-DET-OAK]

stop copy/pasting that shit dickhead, I know im right ive read the shit 1,000 times.

 

[JuiceAuthority]

stop copy/pasting that shit dickhead, I know im right ive read the shit 1,000 times.

Um, link was provided, no?

 

[JuiceAuthority]

I will say again since you do not understand, Nolva will down reg the PGR, temporarily.

This may be the one most valuable nugget of info yet, once confirmed. That is, if the gyno symptoms are progesterone related. Unfortunately there's no way of really know whether it's progesterone or estrogen related gyno when running Test with a progestin.

 

[Rond01]

there are 3 questions at the end.. are you asking questions or being informative.. im lost..

lmao. i thought i was learning and then poof!

 

[UserAt204]

How did I miss this gem. OAK, Cashout, and RJ made some great post and actually straightened out a few things for me. Good work boys!!

 

[Mudge]

Some people here take things way too personally, put in your nickels worth and ignore rude commentary IMO. Its a waste of time, and nobody needs the stress of an internet fight, thats kinda dumb...

Oh yes, DROL IS GREAT

 

[THE-DET-OAK]

your absolutely right Mudge, I should have left it alone a long time ago, now i look like a moron. sometimes i get caught up in the bullshit, its obvious he twisted his story from the beginning on purpose.