The Truth about Protein

Dave B. said:
We evolved as hunter-gatherers. You got the hunting part right, but while the men were out hunting game, the women were gathering tubers, nuts, grains, and any other edible vegitation. We are omnivores, not carnivores.
i think that is what i was getting at.
maybe it came across as me saying we are carnivores, but it was not my intent. also from the reading i have done "grains" are not edible in there raw state, and were not intorduced into the modern diet era until approx 10k yrs ago. when the means to make them edible were introduced. like i said the hunter gatherer tribes ate meat and fat and sparse amounts of fruits and veggies. starches and a few other "foods" were not part of our diet.
 
mister69 said:
Great point--as always it always depends on the person.

I know that Toollifter is a complete freak and I remeber you telling me that durring his prep he was drinking a hershey syrup frozen yogurt protein shake and MCd's once a week---becuase his metabolism was firing up so high.

And me for instance --we learned that alot of food was in order too :)

This is very true- However evaluating the situation continuously is key. I would guess that in a few years that this may be less true for you.
 
You are def right--i am still very young at 23years old.

Sent ya a pm.
DirkMoneyshot said:
This is very true- However evaluating the situation continuously is key. I would guess that in a few years that this may be less true for you.
 
adidamps2 said:
i think that is what i was getting at.
maybe it came across as me saying we are carnivores, but it was not my intent. also from the reading i have done "grains" are not edible in there raw state, and were not intorduced into the modern diet era until approx 10k yrs ago. when the means to make them edible were introduced. like i said the hunter gatherer tribes ate meat and fat and sparse amounts of fruits and veggies. starches and a few other "foods" were not part of our diet.

Starchy roots and tubers were and are a common feature of hunter-gatherer diets. And there are some things that pre-agricultural societies can do with wild grains. The development of breads and baking definitely pre-dates agriculture, and the 10KYO barrier (the end of the last Ice Age).
 
Dave B. said:
Starchy roots and tubers were and are a common feature of hunter-gatherer diets. And there are some things that pre-agricultural societies can do with wild grains. The development of breads and baking definitely pre-dates agriculture, and the 10KYO barrier (the end of the last Ice Age).
hmmm, maybe i need to find more reading material then on this. then ones i have read on paleolithical dieting all excluded and claim grains, legumes, beans were not eaten
:(
 
Ok, so I read it, think its complete crap and I'll point out why.
1) "The problem, however, is not how to get enough, it's how not to get to much. Having to much protein in one's body is easily as dangerous as not having enough." This was in the very first paragraph. If the dork writing the article doesnt know the difference between two, to and too then he probably doesnt know what the hell he is trying to write either. This didnt bode well for the rest of the article.

2) "I know what an exceedingly confucing topic this is." Its easy to get confused when what you are reading is written so poorly. I will not bother with all of the spelling, typos, puntuation and word misusage. This article is loaded with them. Knowing that the article is so poorly written it leads one to assume that the whole of it is bunk.

3) "The easist food for the body to break down is fruit; the other end of the scale, the hardest is protein." This is fallacious at the very least and is more than likely intended to be intellectually dishonest and intentionally misleading. This author like to use animals as examples so lets look at the general body types of carnivors and herbivores. If you look carefull all carnivores without exception have relatively small waist and are atheletically built. Now look at their large waisted prey animals that are herbivores. Yes, the sugars in the fruit are pretty easy to digest, but the fiber is not and most herbivores do not eat exclusively fruit. They eat high fiber foods and fiber is not easy to digest hence the larger waist of herbivores.

4) "The average time for food (other than fruit) to pass through the entire gastrointestinal tract is between twenty-five and thirty hours. When flesh food is eaten, that time is more than doubled. Therefore, logically the more protein one eats, the less energy will be available for other necessary functions, such as the elimination of toxic waste." Complete bullshit and fallacy using bad or non science and assumptions based on bad non science.
The amount of nutrients/calories in a pound of round steak vis a vis the amount of nutrient in a pound strawberries is incomparable. You would have to eat 50lbs of strawberries to get the same nutritive value as 1lb of round steak.

5) "First of all, the human body recycles 70 percent of it's proteinaceous waste. That's 70 percent! Second, the human body loses only about 23 grams of protein a day. That's eight tenths of an ounce. It is lost through the feces, urine, hair, sloughed off skin, and perspiration." This is bullshit too. A body that weighs in at 100lbs, that is emaciated and at rest may do what this author claims, but a guy that weighs in at 225lbs+ and is busting his ass in the gym tearing his muscles apart requires MUCH more. The rest of the paragraph that the above mentioned quoate was taken from is based on this bullshit. so take it with a grain of salt.

6) "One of the groups of animals that is eaten for protein is cattle, some fourty million a year. that's alot of meat. For strength! that's actually the first reason given for the necessity of eating meat. "we need to keep up our strength." Well, lets just take a look at that. What would you say is the strongest animal on the planet? Most people would say an elephant. i would agree." WTF is with this crap?! This is downright retarded and probably the dumbest paragraph in the article. You cant compare differing morphology and relate it to protien requirements. Its kind of like saying that a steam turbine used to propel a ship is more powerful than a two stroke moped motor, therfore water is a better source of energy than gasoline. Stupid comparison.

Im stopping at this point as there is no need to continue wasting my time tearing apart this vegan/vegitarian propaganda. The whole article is complete and utter misleading crap.
 
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DirkMoneyshot said:
I might have to go over to this forum- What is its URL???

Whitemeat is right in talking about degredation, utilization of nutrients, enzymes, ect.

I've tried to talk about this stuff on here and it gets put down like crazy. Any time someone comes on here and tells me how they need to eat 4000 kcals and weighs 200 lbs just doesn't get it. Many studies have pointed at the body utilizing the nutrients better (not to mention being healthy and living longer) when kcals are closer to maintenance or below, then using certain times to spike those levels.

Something that wasn't really touched on was how much oxidation there is on extreme amounts of protein. your body is extremely acidic and body functions do not work properly.

We have to many people in this diet forum that "believe" they have the answers, but in 20 years are not going to be healthy for what they have done.
:baby: so you're saying eat less? not more?
 
99% of research done on macronutrient ratios influencing body composition suck, here's why...

Let's stick with protein, I can think of at least dozen main factors that would influence the outcome of a study involving protein intake. The problem is, researchers don't conduct a study involving those 12 factors, they conduct studies based on 4-5 factors. Now, are there individuals who happen to fit into those parameters in the way they train, eat, etc? Yes, but not many. Get my point?
 
adidamps2 said:
i think something most people dont realize is that Gorillas do eat meat, they are known for eatting monkey's and insects (which although i am not o big fan of are high in protien and typically fat (esp grubs)).



"Unlike humans, the digestive tract of gorillas is equipped to manufacture the essential amino acids and other vital nutrients. The human digestive system is not so equipped and we must rely on animal proteins."
we also need to consider another factor when comparing animals to humans, its called genetics.
 
Strega said:
Ok, so I read it, think its complete crap and I'll point out why.
1) "The problem, however, is not how to get enough, it's how not to get to much. Having to much protein in one's body is easily as dangerous as not having enough." This was in the very first paragraph. If the dork writing the article doesnt know the difference between two, to and too then he probably doesnt know what the hell he is trying to write either. This didnt bode well for the rest of the article.

2) "I know what an exceedingly confucing topic this is." Its easy to get confused when what you are reading is written so poorly. I will not bother with all of the spelling, typos, puntuation and word misusage. This article is loaded with them. Knowing that the article is so poorly written it leads one to assume that the whole of it is bunk.

3) "The easist food for the body to break down is fruit; the other end of the scale, the hardest is protein." This is fallacious at the very least and is more than likely intended to be intellectually dishonest and intentionally misleading. This author like to use animals as examples so lets look at the general body types of carnivors and herbivores. If you look carefull all carnivores without exception have relatively small waist and are atheletically built. Now look at their large waisted prey animals that are herbivores. Yes, the sugars in the fruit are pretty easy to digest, but the fiber is not and most herbivores do not eat exclusively fruit. They eat high fiber foods and fiber is not easy to digest hence the larger waist of herbivores.

4) "The average time for food (other than fruit) to pass through the entire gastrointestinal tract is between twenty-five and thirty hours. When flesh food is eaten, that time is more than doubled. Therefore, logically the more protein one eats, the less energy will be available for other necessary functions, such as the elimination of toxic waste." Complete bullshit and fallacy using bad or non science and assumptions based on bad non science.
The amount of nutrients/calories in a pound of round steak vis a vis the amount of nutrient in a pound strawberries is incomparable. You would have to eat 50lbs of strawberries to get the same nutritive value as 1lb of round steak.

5) "First of all, the human body recycles 70 percent of it's proteinaceous waste. That's 70 percent! Second, the human body loses only about 23 grams of protein a day. That's eight tenths of an ounce. It is lost through the feces, urine, hair, sloughed off skin, and perspiration." This is bullshit too. A body that weighs in at 100lbs, that is emaciated and at rest may do what this author claims, but a guy that weighs in at 225lbs+ and is busting his ass in the gym tearing his muscles apart requires MUCH more. The rest of the paragraph that the above mentioned quoate was taken from is based on this bullshit. so take it with a grain of salt.

6) "One of the groups of animals that is eaten for protein is cattle, some fourty million a year. that's alot of meat. For strength! that's actually the first reason given for the necessity of eating meat. "we need to keep up our strength." Well, lets just take a look at that. What would you say is the strongest animal on the planet? Most people would say an elephant. i would agree." WTF is with this crap?! This is downright retarded and probably the dumbest paragraph in the article. You cant compare differing morphology and relate it to protien requirements. Its kind of like saying that a steam turbine used to propel a ship is more powerful than a two stroke moped motor, therfore water is a better source of energy than gasoline. Stupid comparison.

Im stopping at this point as there is no need to continue wasting my time tearing apart this vegan/vegitarian propaganda. The whole article is complete and utter misleading crap.


wow... most of what you said was pointless and a bunch of shit. glad you showed a bunch of scientific facts to back your statements.

Author is far from a vegan. Spelling errors? Well, I believe after a few people had asked questions, the author wrote this up in 15 minutes or so and then posted it up to answer some of our questions and give us a new outlook. Someone rushing to finish an article w/o trying to publish this in some magazine makes errors and is now discredited right from the start.

I lack the knowledge or desire to argue much about this and prove any great points so I'll leave it at this. Besides, most are too closed minded and unwilling to try something so 'absurd' and 'unscientific'.

Good luck guys. It's going well for me so far, however, I am newly into it and have yet to get back into my routine of training. It'll take at least 1 month to decide if it can benefit someone during a 3 day a week lifting regime attempting to gain muscle mass. I will post back over here if my results seem to go well.
 
Strega said:
2) Its easy to get confused when what you are reading is written so poorly. I will not bother with all of the spelling, typos, ro [ ro? WTF is that? oooooh "OR", I knew this because I am intelligent enough to spot an error, and get over it quickly, knowing what the author was actually meaning to say]puntuation and word misusage. [ I prefer the "mis usage" but to each his own, I won't be picky]

If you look carefull [ did you mean carefully?]all carnivores without exception have relatively small waist and are atheletically


quoate
protien [we're BBers here right? lol ]
therfore
vegitarian

Do we really need to get upset about a few spelling errors Strega? I Left out plenty of the "puntuation" errors you made as well haha... :jump:

I suppose the fact that I make errors, (and I believe, everyone makes errors) allowed me to overlook them and focus on more important things. I'm sure you don't see the "important" things as just that though, so it doesn't really matter anyway.
 
nice read http://www.healthfree.com/raw_food_art_high.html
_____________________________________

High Protein Diet Myths

PROTEIN - Perhaps the most predominant food fallacy is the high protein intake (40 to 100 grams daily) usually recommended. Protein in excess of our needs is not utilized by the body. There are several factors that greatly diminish availability of dietary protein. If we use meat as our source of protein, cooking destroys at least one of the essential amino acids needed for building enzymes and healthy tissue. Cooking can destroy 40 to 85 percent of the available protein in most foods.

Most cooked food enters the stomach at a temperature of more than 104 degrees; this heat destroys some of the gastric enzymes needed for digestion. Liquids served at a meal delay protein digestion by reducing the concentration of gastric juices. Serving a concentrated protein food at the same meal with fats, sweets or starches further inhibits digestion because each of these foods requires different digestive juices. When too large a quantity of concentrated food is eaten at a meal, much of it remains undigested. Many people cannot digest meat because of deficiency in pancreatic enzymes, bile and hydrochloric acid.

Practically all pain, pathology and cell destruction is known to be due to high blood acidity which results form excess intake of protein, especially acid-forming animal proteins. However, even vegetable protein such as seed, when eaten to excess can cause toxicity.

Dr. C.L. Elvehjem in "Amino Acid Supplementation of Cereal" warns that twice the daily requirements of certain amino acids in food leads to toxic cell disturbance. Dr. Bieler stats that one of the main sources of over-acidity in the body is excess of amino acids which disturbs the nitrogen balance.

"All deaths are due to progressive acid saturation." (Cee W. Crile, M.D.) The acid condition generated by a high protein diet, destroys body cells, hence new ones will have to be built.
If there is a heavy coating of mucus in the digestive tract and deposits of waste in the blood vessels, protein (amino acids) is poorly absorbed and largely unavailable to the cells. for these reasons much of the protein we eat passes from the body, or is stored in the tissues as waste.
The degree of a person's physiological degeneration can be determined by the amount of protein needed to maintain normal weight. High protein needs indicate that the organs, blood and lymph systems are clogged with mucus. Large protein intake creates an osmotic pressure in the digestive tract high enough to force the amino acids through even badly congested cell walls.

The short term beneficial effects of a high protein diet can be attributed to the following factors.
Most people are protein starved. The cells are deficient in protein because the whole interior of the individual from the digestive tract to the finest capillary, as well as cell walls, are coated with extraneous mucus, hardened fats and layers of inorganic mineral deposits which interfere with the transport of amino acids to the interior of the cells.

The intake of high protein foods (especially without starches) increases the osmotic pressure of the amino acids: this sets up the pump mechanism for the increased amino acid transport into the cells. Health improves. Furthermore, there is the stimulating effect one gets from protein, since uric acid, a waste product of protein metabolism, has a structure almost identical to caffeine. Likewise, in the case of individuals who are on a cleansing diet, protein foods top further detoxification, hence eliminating the feeling of weakness that is associated with cleansing.
Lastly, in disease such as toxemia of pregnancy, which is cleansing "sickness", a high protein diet ahs been effectively used in stopping or preventing the development of the process of detoxification.

The long-term effect of a high protein diet is always bad. It leads to an accumulation of the waste products protein metabolism, thus acidifying the body. For example, the human liver and kidneys combined have a limited capacity to excrete only about 8 grains of uric acid in 24 hours. However, one pound of meat can generate as much as 18 grains of uric acid. Hence, some uric acid will be left in the body from any one meat meal that will accumulate to produce the disease of gout, rheumatism or the complications of arthritis.

Very similar statements can be made about the megavitamin-mineral therapy. Here the results can be impressive and immediate. However, the disease still has a dietary basis and unless the individual pursues an improved dietary regime, the junk foods will eventually have their effect. Furthermore, no supplement can supply all the factors that are found in raw, living foods. Likewise, the human body was not structured for a fragmented nutrient intake; vitamins work best not alone, but in conjunction with other vitamins, minerals, enzymes and amino acids as found in food from nature. It is interesting to note that in his studies Dr. Kohler found it to be impossible to create a dietary supplement which utilized all the known dietary factors, equal in benefit and growth rates, to that which one finds in grasses.

The real solution to diet is to clean out the body. This increases the permeability of body linings, skin and cell walls, thus permitting easy transport of nutrients. A detoxified individual can eat very little of simple foods such as sprouted seeds and fruit and maintain excellent health, strength and intellectual acuity.
 
TheBrent said:
nice read http://www.healthfree.com/raw_food_art_high.html
_____________________________________

High Protein Diet Myths

PROTEIN - Perhaps the most predominant food fallacy is the high protein intake (40 to 100 grams daily) usually recommended. Protein in excess of our needs is not utilized by the body. There are several factors that greatly diminish availability of dietary protein. If we use meat as our source of protein, cooking destroys at least one of the essential amino acids needed for building enzymes and healthy tissue. Cooking can destroy 40 to 85 percent of the available protein in most foods.

Most cooked food enters the stomach at a temperature of more than 104 degrees; this heat destroys some of the gastric enzymes needed for digestion. Liquids served at a meal delay protein digestion by reducing the concentration of gastric juices. Serving a concentrated protein food at the same meal with fats, sweets or starches further inhibits digestion because each of these foods requires different digestive juices. When too large a quantity of concentrated food is eaten at a meal, much of it remains undigested. Many people cannot digest meat because of deficiency in pancreatic enzymes, bile and hydrochloric acid.

Practically all pain, pathology and cell destruction is known to be due to high blood acidity which results form excess intake of protein, especially acid-forming animal proteins. However, even vegetable protein such as seed, when eaten to excess can cause toxicity.

Dr. C.L. Elvehjem in "Amino Acid Supplementation of Cereal" warns that twice the daily requirements of certain amino acids in food leads to toxic cell disturbance. Dr. Bieler stats that one of the main sources of over-acidity in the body is excess of amino acids which disturbs the nitrogen balance.

"All deaths are due to progressive acid saturation." (Cee W. Crile, M.D.) The acid condition generated by a high protein diet, destroys body cells, hence new ones will have to be built.
If there is a heavy coating of mucus in the digestive tract and deposits of waste in the blood vessels, protein (amino acids) is poorly absorbed and largely unavailable to the cells. for these reasons much of the protein we eat passes from the body, or is stored in the tissues as waste.
The degree of a person's physiological degeneration can be determined by the amount of protein needed to maintain normal weight. High protein needs indicate that the organs, blood and lymph systems are clogged with mucus. Large protein intake creates an osmotic pressure in the digestive tract high enough to force the amino acids through even badly congested cell walls.

The short term beneficial effects of a high protein diet can be attributed to the following factors.
Most people are protein starved. The cells are deficient in protein because the whole interior of the individual from the digestive tract to the finest capillary, as well as cell walls, are coated with extraneous mucus, hardened fats and layers of inorganic mineral deposits which interfere with the transport of amino acids to the interior of the cells.

The intake of high protein foods (especially without starches) increases the osmotic pressure of the amino acids: this sets up the pump mechanism for the increased amino acid transport into the cells. Health improves. Furthermore, there is the stimulating effect one gets from protein, since uric acid, a waste product of protein metabolism, has a structure almost identical to caffeine. Likewise, in the case of individuals who are on a cleansing diet, protein foods top further detoxification, hence eliminating the feeling of weakness that is associated with cleansing.
Lastly, in disease such as toxemia of pregnancy, which is cleansing "sickness", a high protein diet ahs been effectively used in stopping or preventing the development of the process of detoxification.

The long-term effect of a high protein diet is always bad. It leads to an accumulation of the waste products protein metabolism, thus acidifying the body. For example, the human liver and kidneys combined have a limited capacity to excrete only about 8 grains of uric acid in 24 hours. However, one pound of meat can generate as much as 18 grains of uric acid. Hence, some uric acid will be left in the body from any one meat meal that will accumulate to produce the disease of gout, rheumatism or the complications of arthritis.

Very similar statements can be made about the megavitamin-mineral therapy. Here the results can be impressive and immediate. However, the disease still has a dietary basis and unless the individual pursues an improved dietary regime, the junk foods will eventually have their effect. Furthermore, no supplement can supply all the factors that are found in raw, living foods. Likewise, the human body was not structured for a fragmented nutrient intake; vitamins work best not alone, but in conjunction with other vitamins, minerals, enzymes and amino acids as found in food from nature. It is interesting to note that in his studies Dr. Kohler found it to be impossible to create a dietary supplement which utilized all the known dietary factors, equal in benefit and growth rates, to that which one finds in grasses.

The real solution to diet is to clean out the body. This increases the permeability of body linings, skin and cell walls, thus permitting easy transport of nutrients. A detoxified individual can eat very little of simple foods such as sprouted seeds and fruit and maintain excellent health, strength and intellectual acuity.

No.
 
adidamps2 said:
i think something most people dont realize is that Gorillas do eat meat, they are known for eatting monkey's and insects (which although i am not o big fan of are high in protien and typically fat (esp grubs)).

also for a little more discussion on this:
http://www.westonaprice.org/traditional_diets/gorilla.html

"The National Zoo in Washington, D.C. tried to breed the near extinct fruitivorian South American golden marmoset in captivity with no result, but when a little animal protein was added to their diet, they began to breed, which proves that they require a small amount of animal protein to be healthy and reproduce."


"Unlike humans, the digestive tract of gorillas is equipped to manufacture the essential amino acids and other vital nutrients. The human digestive system is not so equipped and we must rely on animal proteins."


The majority of a gorilla's diet consists of greens/fruits. Less than 10% seems to be grubs/ants/larvae/or meat. In fact, In some the percentage is as low as 2% of ants and grubs.

Most people give well over 10% of their diet to protein.


------- EDIT

From wikipedia-

"Gorillas are omnivores, eating fruits, leaves, shoots, and sometimes insects which make up only 1-2% of their diet"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gorilla
 
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TheBrent said:
The majority of a gorilla's diet consists of greens/fruits. Less than 10% seems to be grubs/ants/larvae/or meat. In fact, In some the percentage is as low as 2% of ants and grubs.

Most people give well over 10% of their diet to protein.
did you read the last paragraph there HERO?!
we dont have the digestive system/track that they do either.
 
Any of you 'haters' tried a Lower protein diet while all other areas of nutrition were truly in tact?

adidamp, Manofmuscle?

... didn't think so.
 
TheBrent said:
The majority of a gorilla's diet consists of greens/fruits. Less than 10% seems to be grubs/ants/larvae/or meat. In fact, In some the percentage is as low as 2% of ants and grubs.

Most people give well over 10% of their diet to protein.


------- EDIT

From wikipedia-

"Gorillas are omnivores, eating fruits, leaves, shoots, and sometimes insects which make up only 1-2% of their diet"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gorilla
are you trying to imply if i eat like a gorilla i can become as strong as one?!
what about elephants? if i eat like them will i be as strong as them?
rabbits, will i attain there speed on a high carrot diet?
what about whales, if i eat enough krill can i swim and hold my breath like a whale does?!
 
TheBrent said:
Any of you 'haters' tried a Lower protein diet while all other areas of nutrition were truly in tact?

adidamp, Manofmuscle?

... didn't think so.
what do you concider low pro?
50g, 100g how about 150g???
what is "LOW"

i have went as low 150g and as high 350g
my typical diet as of right now has me at 180-210g protien ED.
i concider that, by the way most here eat pretty low.
 
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