The Truth about Protein

[Whitemeat]

We're NOT talking about nutrition (or whats healthy), we're talking about CALORIES and muscle growth.

I'm not too sure what you're trying to say, but I think I'm gonna disagree with you. Calories are not all created equally. First off, fats, carbs, and protein are all digested a bit differently and require different amounts of energy to be digested. Once in your system, your body is able to make different uses of these macros. If each macro didn't have a unique function in the human body, we could just completely skip it. Most people are in agreement up to this point.

The real debate begins on how much of each does one need? People with different goals are going to require different foods. I personally believe I can achieve my goals by keeping protein between 100-150 grams daily, and not consuming 250+ grams daily.

 

[Whitemeat]

I dont know why the three of you are thinking "NUTRITION" or Healthy eating, it was never even mentioned.

You're not sure why we're thinking of "Nutrition"??????? Unless I don't know the definition of the word, this is what we are all talking about.

Believe me, this article and all other discussion this article stemmed from was regarding not only healthy eating, but healthy living. Obesity and heart disease were brought up in the article. The author even states early in the article this article is intended to focus on one's weight and energy level.

 

[DirkMoneyshot]

I might have to go over to this forum- What is its URL???

Whitemeat is right in talking about degredation, utilization of nutrients, enzymes, ect.

I've tried to talk about this stuff on here and it gets put down like crazy. Any time someone comes on here and tells me how they need to eat 4000 kcals and weighs 200 lbs just doesn't get it. Many studies have pointed at the body utilizing the nutrients better (not to mention being healthy and living longer) when kcals are closer to maintenance or below, then using certain times to spike those levels.

Something that wasn't really touched on was how much oxidation there is on extreme amounts of protein. your body is extremely acidic and body functions do not work properly.

We have to many people in this diet forum that "believe" they have the answers, but in 20 years are not going to be healthy for what they have done.

 

[Miss Muscle]

We're NOT talking about NUTRITION here (or whats healthy), we're talking about CALORIES.

You can eat 400g of protein and get 1600 calories.
You can eat 177.77g of fat and get 1600 calories.
Etc.
I dont know why the three of you are thinking "NUTRITION" or Healthy eating, it was never even mentioned.

Although I agree with everybody on here I completely see what you are trying to say Pineapple. I do understand where you are coming from with your points buddy!

 

[ManOfMuscle]

This has been a fun thread.

 

[DirkMoneyshot]

Although I agree with everybody on here I completely see what you are trying to say Pineapple. I do understand where you are coming from with your points buddy!

I completely know where pineapple is coming from and I agree that by definition a calorie is a calorie.

People talk about proteins and carbs being digested differently and such. Okay thats true. I can by into the thermo effect of proteins over say fats, sure. How much it really effects is probably up for debate but really isn't that great in the whole scheme of things.

But that doesn't mean that the "CALORIE" from a protein is not the same as a "CALORIE" from a Fat.

It just means that the digestion of that macro causes you body to work harder. That is a metabolic effect on the body. Not what you are putting into it.

Any way this is fairly pointless to a degree as Calories are of little importance, macronutrients and micronutrients are what we should be talking about. Not how many calories.

Like I told Miss Muscle, I don't even count the total number of calories in a competitors diet. Its pointless. I worry more about the macros they are getting and then adjust it as their body changes in accordance to what they are prescribed.

 

[DirkMoneyshot]

I just wanted to get this in here- Yes a "Calorie" is equal. Macronutrients are not equal, and you are failing to point this out. Your grouping a macro with a calorie. Like I pointed out, I agree with almost all of what you have said in this thread, but don't put the two together. Lets see if we can put it like this and this is really over simplified.

Lets say your typical BMR is 2,000 kcals / day-

You eat 2,000 kcals of protein.
You eat 2,000 kcals of Fat

Is the total amount of "energy" consumed the same- YES

Now does eating 2,000 kcals of protein over 2,000 kcals of fat have any metabolic signifigance. YES. It is possible that because of this your BMR could shift higher with the protein intake (possibly is key) However what you have taken in in terms of "energy" stays the same. Your just changing how much energy you need through the day.

I'm not too sure what you're trying to say, but I think I'm gonna disagree with you. Calories are not all created equally. First off, fats, carbs, and protein are all digested a bit differently and require different amounts of energy to be digested. Once in your system, your body is able to make different uses of these macros. If each macro didn't have a unique function in the human body, we could just completely skip it. Most people are in agreement up to this point.

The real debate begins on how much of each does one need? People with different goals are going to require different foods. I personally believe I can achieve my goals by keeping protein between 100-150 grams daily, and not consuming 250+ grams daily.

 

[adidamps2]

If everyone finds this post a bit controversial, you should've read the one on circadian rhythms. I'm not able to explain the whole thing, but it basically makes you eat only 8 hours during the day, from noon till 8 pm (if you wake up and go to bed at a normal time). Fruits were the only thing allowed during other hours since they are digested in the intestines, and would not disrupt the natural cycles. I found it pretty hard to believe at first, but actually tried it before discounting it. And I actually did feel more alert and energetic throughout the day. Probably not a great way to gain muscle, but Mallet claims he has been able to maintain size while eating this way. So something to think about if you are in a maintenance stage. I wish these articles would reappear on IFL so everyone could get the whole picture. It was a breath of fresh air for someone like me. I've always struggled trying to incorporate bodybuilding diets to fit with my goals. I'm in a Kcal range of about 2500-2800 per day to maintain my weight or grow very slightly. Eating 200+ grams of protein daily left less than 2000 Kcals for fats and carbs. Throw in post workout carbs, and the fats that come with meats, I just couldn't fit in fruits. I think many in the BB community eat very few fruits. But all the while I was following this type of a diet, I felt like I should be eating more fruits & vegs and less meats to be healthier. My family has a history of heart disease and most are overweight, as is the rest of America. I wanted to find a way to be in good shape and be healthy at the same time. These articles really helped to provide some direction towards those goals.

i was going to respond to your 1st post, but this one caught my attention.

1st i'd like to point out i am inthe calorie consumption range as you.
25k-32k my macros look like this 60-65% fat/>5-10%carbs (after i minus out fiber), 25-30% protien
but i'd like to point out the fact that i eat a large amount of veggies, and selective fruits and my protien intake is the range of 180-210g ED.
however, i do not eat oats or wheats or starches. thats leaves plenty of room for veggies and fruits.
and this whole talk of health and BB is good and all, but it you want to get down to the nitty gritty, we as humans did not evelove eatting high amounts of veggies and fruit and starches. we evolved eatting animal meat high in fats and protien.

let me make a simple statement and take it as you wish.
Fat is not created by the body, and cannot be created from any other macronutrient.
Protein is not created by the body, and cannot be created from any other macronutrient.
glucose is created by the liver, and can also be created from excess protein.
Fat and ketones are the body's preferred fuel source, and in a high fat, low carb diet, an abundance of carbs are not needed, as only a few body cells need carbs, and those can be obtained from the body.

also look at the inuits, Green Landers, adn traditional hunter and gatherer tribes still left today. heart disease does not exist, yet there diet is Laden in animal fats.
am i saying they dont eat veggies or fruit or roots. no, i am not, but there diet is not made up of a majority of carbs (in this case fruits or veggies).
and they are healthy. very healthy.

 

[adidamps2]

I might have to go over to this forum- What is its URL???
http://www.ironforlife.com/index.php?

Whitemeat is right in talking about degredation, utilization of nutrients, enzymes, ect.

I've tried to talk about this stuff on here and it gets put down like crazy. Any time someone comes on here and tells me how they need to eat 4000 kcals and weighs 200 lbs just doesn't get it. Many studies have pointed at the body utilizing the nutrients better (not to mention being healthy and living longer) when kcals are closer to maintenance or below, then using certain times to spike those levels.

Something that wasn't really touched on was how much oxidation there is on extreme amounts of protein. your body is extremely acidic and body functions do not work properly.

We have to many people in this diet forum that "believe" they have the answers, but in 20 years are not going to be healthy for what they have done.

i think me you only differ on opinion of carbs Dirk.
other wise i understand exactly were you are coming from.

 

[TheBrent]

Whitemeat- Glad you came over here to clarify things a bit. Really cool of you to do. I'm a little pissed that the threads are gone now. It's a shame that it had to end this way because I was very interested in all of the 3 threads.

Unfortunately, there were other articles and plenty of disussion that helped "back" this article and further explain it.

I gained more information in those 3 threads (as far as nutrtion goes) than I have in months and months. Great reads, by a great guy.

 

[Miss Muscle]

i was going to respond to your 1st post, but this one caught my attention.

1st i'd like to point out i am inthe calorie consumption range as you.
25k-32k my macros look like this 60-65% fat/>5-10%carbs (after i minus out fiber), 25-30% protien
but i'd like to point out the fact that i eat a large amount of veggies, and selective fruits and my protien intake is the range of 180-210g ED.
however, i do not eat oats or wheats or starches. thats leaves plenty of room for veggies and fruits.
and this whole talk of health and BB is good and all, but it you want to get down to the nitty gritty, we as humans did not evelove eatting high amounts of veggies and fruit and starches. we evolved eatting animal meat high in fats and protien.

let me make a simple statement and take it as you wish.
Fat is not created by the body, and cannot be created from any other macronutrient.
Protein is not created by the body, and cannot be created from any other macronutrient.
glucose is created by the liver, and can also be created from excess protein.
Fat and ketones are the body's preferred fuel source, and in a high fat, low carb diet, an abundance of carbs are not needed, as only a few body cells need carbs, and those can be obtained from the body.

also look at the inuits, Green Landers, adn traditional hunter and gatherer tribes still left today. heart disease does not exist, yet there diet is Laden in animal fats.
am i saying they dont eat veggies or fruit or roots. no, i am not, but there diet is not made up of a majority of carbs (in this case fruits or veggies).
and they are healthy. very healthy.

This is a good post and a good reminder for everyone. I did not know glucose could be created frome excess protein.

 

[Whitemeat]

I might have to go over to this forum- What is its URL???

Whitemeat is right in talking about degredation, utilization of nutrients, enzymes, ect.

I've tried to talk about this stuff on here and it gets put down like crazy. Any time someone comes on here and tells me how they need to eat 4000 kcals and weighs 200 lbs just doesn't get it. Many studies have pointed at the body utilizing the nutrients better (not to mention being healthy and living longer) when kcals are closer to maintenance or below, then using certain times to spike those levels.

Something that wasn't really touched on was how much oxidation there is on extreme amounts of protein. your body is extremely acidic and body functions do not work properly.

We have to many people in this diet forum that "believe" they have the answers, but in 20 years are not going to be healthy for what they have done.

URL is ironforlife.com, but the threads were deleted. Good point about the acidity in the body from excess protein. It also makes it more difficult to digest other foods consumed that require alkaline to digest the food, such as starches.

 

[Whitemeat]

I just wanted to get this in here- Yes a "Calorie" is equal. Macronutrients are not equal, and you are failing to point this out. Your grouping a macro with a calorie. Like I pointed out, I agree with almost all of what you have said in this thread, but don't put the two together. Lets see if we can put it like this and this is really over simplified.

Lets say your typical BMR is 2,000 kcals / day-

You eat 2,000 kcals of protein.
You eat 2,000 kcals of Fat

Is the total amount of "energy" consumed the same- YES

Now does eating 2,000 kcals of protein over 2,000 kcals of fat have any metabolic signifigance. YES. It is possible that because of this your BMR could shift higher with the protein intake (possibly is key) However what you have taken in in terms of "energy" stays the same. Your just changing how much energy you need through the day.

Yes...this is what I was getting at. A calorie is a calorie in the terms that it is an equal unit of energy, but your body doesn't utilize all calories equally.

 

[Whitemeat]

i was going to respond to your 1st post, but this one caught my attention.

1st i'd like to point out i am inthe calorie consumption range as you.
25k-32k my macros look like this 60-65% fat/>5-10%carbs (after i minus out fiber), 25-30% protien
but i'd like to point out the fact that i eat a large amount of veggies, and selective fruits and my protien intake is the range of 180-210g ED.
however, i do not eat oats or wheats or starches. thats leaves plenty of room for veggies and fruits.
and this whole talk of health and BB is good and all, but it you want to get down to the nitty gritty, we as humans did not evelove eatting high amounts of veggies and fruit and starches. we evolved eatting animal meat high in fats and protien.

let me make a simple statement and take it as you wish.
Fat is not created by the body, and cannot be created from any other macronutrient.
Protein is not created by the body, and cannot be created from any other macronutrient.
glucose is created by the liver, and can also be created from excess protein.
Fat and ketones are the body's preferred fuel source, and in a high fat, low carb diet, an abundance of carbs are not needed, as only a few body cells need carbs, and those can be obtained from the body.

also look at the inuits, Green Landers, adn traditional hunter and gatherer tribes still left today. heart disease does not exist, yet there diet is Laden in animal fats.
am i saying they dont eat veggies or fruit or roots. no, i am not, but there diet is not made up of a majority of carbs (in this case fruits or veggies).
and they are healthy. very healthy.

I can't argue with this diet strategy. It has a solid basis and obviously many societies have survived over the years this way. It's good to see you are trying to mesh the bodybuilding diet with something you feel is also healthy. I don't think I would like eating like this too much though.

 

[adidamps2]

URL is ironforlife.com, but the threads were deleted. Good point about the acidity in the body from excess protein. It also makes it more difficult to digest other foods consumed that require alkaline to digest the food, such as starches.

starches in and of them selves are
Enzyme Blockers: These enzyme blockers are abundant in all seeds including grains and beans, and also in potatoes, serving to hold them in suspended animation and also acting as pesticides. Most commonly they block the enzymes that digest protein (proteases), and are called "protease inhibitors". They can affect the stomach protease enzyme "pepsin", and the small intestine protease enzymes "trypsin" and "chymotrypsin". These small intestine enzymes are made by the pancreas (it does a lot of other important things besides making insulin). Some enzyme blockers affect the enzymes that digest starch (amylase) and are called "amylase inhibitors".

starches such IMO.

 

[Whitemeat]

Whitemeat- Glad you came over here to clarify things a bit. Really cool of you to do. I'm a little pissed that the threads are gone now. It's a shame that it had to end this way because I was very interested in all of the 3 threads.

Unfortunately, there were other articles and plenty of disussion that helped "back" this article and further explain it.

I gained more information in those 3 threads (as far as nutrtion goes) than I have in months and months. Great reads, by a great guy.

Yea it's a real shame the threads got deleted. A lot more info in those threads that really helps to tie the hold thing together. This article here wasn't all of it.

I'm going to be logging my results from this over at IFL. If you're still planning on carrying it out for a while, maybe you could do the same.

 

[adidamps2]

I can't argue with this diet strategy. It has a solid basis and obviously many societies have survived over the years this way. It's good to see you are trying to mesh the bodybuilding diet with something you feel is also healthy. I don't think I would like eating like this too much though.

the hardest part is the adjustment period.
going from acarb rich diet to one that gets a majority of its enrgy source from fat.

mind you i still eat some grains (pasta and pizza due to my family) however i make sure not let grains make up the majority of my diet.

 

[DirkMoneyshot]

i think me you only differ on opinion of carbs Dirk.
other wise i understand exactly were you are coming from.

I wouldn't say that- I just believe that it is more individualistic then everyone should be doing all fat or all carbs. I have found that through personal experience that about 90% of individuals who are looking to maximize their BB goals and stay healthy should be on the pro / carb diet. The other 10% should lower the carbs and up the fat.

If we are talking about your everyday individual who has no intention on stepping on a BB stage or even trying to maximize their physique like the people on this board then more of a balanced diet between pro / carbs / fats is best.

The individual in question has to be analyzed before we throw % out there.

 

[mister69]

Great point--as always it always depends on the person.

I know that Toollifter is a complete freak and I remeber you telling me that durring his prep he was drinking a hershey syrup frozen yogurt protein shake and MCd's once a week---becuase his metabolism was firing up so high.

And me for instance --we learned that alot of food was in order too

I wouldn't say that- I just believe that it is more individualistic then everyone should be doing all fat or all carbs. I have found that through personal experience that about 90% of individuals who are looking to maximize their BB goals and stay healthy should be on the pro / carb diet. The other 10% should lower the carbs and up the fat.

If we are talking about your everyday individual who has no intention on stepping on a BB stage or even trying to maximize their physique like the people on this board then more of a balanced diet between pro / carbs / fats is best.

The individual in question has to be analyzed before we throw % out there.

 

[Dave B.]

...we as humans did not evelove eatting high amounts of veggies and fruit and starches. we evolved eatting animal meat high in fats and protien.

We evolved as hunter-gatherers. You got the hunting part right, but while the men were out hunting game, the women were gathering tubers, nuts, grains, and any other edible vegitation. We are omnivores, not carnivores.