Anti Estrogen Tirade

[DADAWG]

Who In The Hell Wrote In Stone That You have To Run A Anti Estrogen With Your Cycles?

News Flash 90% Of All Of You Could Run A Cycle With Moderate Doses Without Any Antiestrogens During The Cycle . Many Of You Could Run A Cycle With Heavy Doses With Little Or No Antiestrogens. You Guys Couldnt Have Made It In The Old Days Before Arimidex Came Along.

Fact A Little Bloat Is Fine And Doesnt Become A Problem Unless It Raises Your Blood Pressure . Fact Bloat/waterweight Gives You Temporary Strength Gains Which Will Allow You To Lift Heavier And Promote Permenant Strength And Lean Mass Gains. Fact Too Little Estrogen Can Kill Libido , Thats The Main Reason You See So Many Threads About A Limp Willie These Days. Fact Antiestrogens/low Estrogen Can Send Your Cholesterol Into The Crapper.


Its A Known Fact That The Internet Invented Gyno . Once Everyone Read About It A Few Times Their Nipples Started To Itch And Gyno Suddenly Appeared.


The Ease Of Obtaining Antiestrogens Has Been A Blessing To Those Who Need Them And A Curse To The Rest Of Us.
The Purpose Of Antiestrogens In Our Community Is To Control Estrogen Not Eliminate It.

 

[Italiano §PÖ]

Agreed. I've run an Aromatase inhibitor (AI) with my last cycle and actually had to taper it down because it was drying me out too much and crushing my estrogen more than I wanted. My joints were starting to hurt as I was doing a TEST only cycle so I didn't have the benefits of the Deca to help counteract the problems the low estrogen was having on my joints. I rarely even keep Nolva around to be honest. I keep Aromasin around and run it with all my cycles but at low to moderate doses as needed. I agree though, you can probably run a small cycle with little to nothing in terms of anti-estrogens. Good post Dawg!

 

[outlawtas]

I ran it an Aromatase inhibitor (AI) on my first cycle, being concerned for gyno. Many cycles later and i've only used it twice to combat a couple flareups. Agreed that it's overused.

 

[cobrajetjoe]

Only done a couple mild/moderate cycles myself and never used Anti E's. Never hit 'em hard though...

 

[estray]

Its a vanity thing.

 

[wayne9452]

Wow, totally new news. I've been scouring the net about estrogen since my latest labs showed 57. Glad to hear I needn't be concerned. At what level do you think estrogen would be a problem?

 

[JayC]

Good call DAWG. I to have run several cycles with no Aromatase inhibitor (AI) or SERM and was fine.. Yes, I was prepared and had my stuff on hand but chose not to run it because at the time I didn't mind the bloat/water, etc.. and like the strength & libido boost. I also have run cycles that I ran my Aromatase inhibitor (AI) throughout for specific reasons.. but that wasn't until I discovered the better generation of AI's (like Aromasin and AIFM) that I was ok w/running it through out... but I'm also a weight based athlete and sometimes can not afford the extra weight so I need to run low doses of Aromasin to keep things in check that way. Off season and out of comp, I'm cool w/running my cycle solo. It's more of a personal decision and type of cycle your running and people just need to be informed on when and why to run an Aromatase inhibitor (AI) and when its really not needed.

 

[DADAWG]

Wow, totally new news. I've been scouring the net about estrogen since my latest labs showed 57. Glad to hear I needn't be concerned. At what level do you think estrogen would be a problem?

be concerned when your bloat causes your blood pressure to become dangerous [ most peoples dont do this ]. be concerned when you develop gyno symptoms . as info the 1st time your tittie itches doesnt mean you have gyno despite the current internet wisdom. the 1st choice to help with gyno symptoms should be nolva imo .

 

[Perfection Awaits]

agree with everything. I never use anti-estrogens when i start a cycle. I just keep arimidex ON HAND incase things start to flare up. Only happened once though. Great point on the fact that bloat helps you lift heavier...so true. make my joints feel amazing and allows me to lift a lot more weight, and feel great. I know a guy who purposely would use compounds like anadrol at the beginning of a cycle just for the instant bloat it gave him. Also a good point on the cholesterol. I read a study once that said unless your estrogen is high, elminating estrogen to nothing and having continuous use of an anti-estrogen kills your hdl/ldl.

 

[Perfection Awaits]

be concerned when your bloat causes your blood pressure to become dangerous [ most peoples dont do this ]. be concerned when you develop gyno symptoms . as info the 1st time your tittie itches doesnt mean you have gyno despite the current internet wisdom. the 1st choice to help with gyno symptoms should be nolva imo .

yea my nip always itch a little on cycle, sometimes even get a tid bit puffy. I expect that. If they get to a point where its hurting when i put a shirt on, or theres something solid in there, thats when i start the arimidex. The only time this happened, i got a tiny lump behind one nipple, took arimidex and it was completely gone in 7-9 days.

Another problem you could add is people taking antiestrogens to prevent gyno that is being caused from progesterones, prolactin gyno, in which an Aromatase inhibitor (AI) isnt going to do much...you'll need something like B-6.

 

[TxLonghorn]

The Ease Of Obtaining Antiestrogens Has Been A Blessing To Those Who Need Them And A Curse To The Rest Of Us.
The Purpose Of Antiestrogens In Our Community Is To Control Estrogen Not Eliminate It.

So I'm a little confused here, exactly which antiestrogen do you recommend to look like Brad Pitt? Noverdecks?

 

[JayC]

lolz

 

[Trevdog]

I Agree. I Agree Emphatically Enough That I Am Capitalizing Every Word.

 

[kzmilan]

lol, I use an Aromatase inhibitor (AI) in my post cycle therapy (pct), but I am prone to gyno problems.

 

[raw lifter]

Agreed, that's why I always post to have them on hand and never incorporate them unless it's an all ballistic cycle - I use dandelion root too help keep bloat down, only used an anti-e with 2 cycles thus far. Found out early into my first run with tren that prolactin will kick my ass if I dont run cab or bromo

 

[Lucky13]

Agreed I see so many people running stupidly high amounts of AI's ...Also look at a few cancer forums and you will see a whole host of health issues associated with AI's.

The idea is control not total elimination.

 

[macro]

for most people the use of low dose aromasin or AIFM is beneficial. For people with higher bodyfat or estrogenic fat pattern use of an aromatase inhibitor is pretty much essential when using aromatic steroids.

Arimidex is the poorest choice for AI's and letrozole is typically something that should only be used for flare up. Generally reccomend that it be used for no more than 4 weeks (unless you have serious aromatase issues from bodyfat or because you have the aromatase polymorphism)-- letro and even arimidex may be preferable in those with adrenal or testicular estrone excess syndrome (as in this case sulfatase suppression is highly desireable-- however this is not particularly common)

 

[macro]

as a note- continuous high exposure to higher levels of estrogen will induce a female fat storage pattern as well as proliferate existing gyno tissue.

teasing the edge and waiting for gyno to present is not really a good idea, because in the long run you will have significant tissue development and you will eventually become more sensitive to exposure to estrogenic agonism as well as the effects of progestins (not to mention the fact that as you age your aromatase levels will go up).


some people produce very little aromatase, particularly high DHT producers and very lean individuals. They generally may not need an Aromatase inhibitor (AI), though even they would benefit from low dose use (especially over time and with age).

agree that high level suppression is not conducive to growth nor really healthy, but some level of suppression is usually beneficial, particularly in the long run.

 

[atomknight]

Great thread!
I don't think the AI's do much for me but dry out my skin and make me look like a smoke 3 packs a day
but i do get the female fat storage pattern. even on primo.
dandelion root too help keep bloat down??? i like the sound of that! dose that really work?

 

[macro]

dandelion root is a potassium sparing loop diuretic. it will help your retain potassium while flushing sodium.

you probably want to look at your diet.

E fat pattern does not just go away, even with E suppression (well over time that will have an impact).

you may also want to look at insulin sensitivity as part of your water/fat problems (which androgens can aggravate). do you do cardio frequently or use insulin sensitizers/glucose uptake agents like Glucorell (r-lipoic/biotin) or Green tea (EGCG)? Watch your saturated fat intake? avoid hydrogenated oils/ fried foods?