Any concerns or worries about doing a 2nd PCT if you feel first one failed?

[PapaNoel]

So this would be kinda threefold as far as reasoning behind a 2nd PCT.

1. To try and get better natty values once its done.
2. Increase test levels due to clomid.
3. Combat/reverse potential gyno with nolva.
4. Wake the balls up with a HCG blast.

My idea would be to run 1k IU HCG ED for 10 days straight.
Wait 3 days and jump on 50mg clomid and 20mg nolva ED for 50 days.

Is there any danger, drawbacks, things to have in mind etc with executing this?
Any input would be greatly appreicated as its bit hard to research the subject.
I dont really see any dangers except the HCG blast raising estrogen levels but I dont think its enough to warrant concern or is it?

Thanks guys

 

[Mycelium]

It could possibly do it. I found an article saying it produced estrogen that was used inside the testicles. I've never found an article that specifically measured an increase, but increased test = increased aromatization. It's a gap I haven't found a full for.

How much test does 1k iu create?

 

[LateStart]

Love this plan bro

 

[49ER]

I am against being natty even for a day lol

 

[jp4355]

The Plan has some Possible Benefits and Drawbacks.

If you run the HCG @ 1,000 IU every day for 10 Days.
You better run an AI with it, as the HCG will Spike your Estrogen at those Dosages.

And while Clomid will Boost your Total Test.
It only works while you are taking it, so it's Not Permanent................................ JP
P.S.
Did you run Bloodwork to confirm that the 1st PCT failed ?

 

[PapaNoel]

The Plan has some Possible Benefits and Drawbacks.

If you run the HCG @ 1,000 IU every day for 10 Days.
You better run an AI with it, as the HCG will Spike your Estrogen at those Dosages.

And while Clomid will Boost your Total Test.
It only works while you are taking it, so it's Not Permanent................................ JP
P.S.
Did you run Bloodwork to confirm that the 1st PCT failed ?

Been thinking about needing an AI but figured since my estrogen is half the value it usually is off cycle and 1/3 of the value before I start getting affected, I figured 10 days wouldn't matter.
I know nolva is a SERM and not an AI but it will regulate/restrict how much is actually hitting my receptors?
Since its only 10 days, could I substitute with nolva?
I'm asking because I have everything at home, just not any AI.

I know it wont be permanent but it'll double my testo.

Got bloodwork back last week and I thought it would be a lot worse than it was but I recovered 100% and i'm exactly at values that I was a year ago before last cycle.
All my values are actually a lot better right now...

But... I dont have the same sexdrive nor do I get crazy horny anymore, so something obviously haven't recovered correctly

 

[jp4355]

Been thinking about needing an AI but figured since my estrogen is half the value it usually is off cycle and 1/3 of the value before I start getting affected, I figured 10 days wouldn't matter.
I know nolva is a SERM and not an AI but it will regulate/restrict how much is actually hitting my receptors?
Since its only 10 days, could I substitute with nolva?
I'm asking because I have everything at home, just not any AI.

I know it wont be permanent but it'll double my testo.

Got bloodwork back last week and I thought it would be a lot worse than it was but I recovered 100% and i'm exactly at values that I was a year ago before last cycle.
All my values are actually a lot better right now...

But... I dont have the same sexdrive nor do I get crazy horny anymore, so something obviously haven't recovered correctly

Honestly, if your Bloodwork is Fine.
I wouldn't do another PCT, as it's Not-Warranted.

Sometimes it just takes Longer then usual to recover your Sex-Drive.
I would give it a couple of more weeks before starting anything....................... JP

 

[PapaNoel]

Honestly, if your Bloodwork is Fine.
I wouldn't do another PCT, as it's Not-Warranted.

Sometimes it just takes Longer then usual to recover your Sex-Drive.
I would give it a couple of more weeks before starting anything....................... JP

What would the drawbacks be?
I'm waiting for doctors appointment, its two weeks away because I wanted a specific doctor (The most likely to put me on legal TRT, if need be.)
The lump is 90% gone by now, not even sure it was gyno at all. It came and almost gone within 6 weeks.
This regimen would include nolva which would treat potential gyno if it was gyno.
Also the double testosterone+ would be nice from the clomid as an interim "prep/cycle" before the next real cycle.

 

[jp4355]

What would the drawbacks be?
I'm waiting for doctors appointment, its two weeks away because I wanted a specific doctor (The most likely to put me on legal TRT, if need be.)
The lump is 90% gone by now, not even sure it was gyno at all. It came and almost gone within 6 weeks.
This regimen would include nolva which would treat potential gyno if it was gyno.
Also the double testosterone+ would be nice from the clomid as an interim "prep/cycle" before the next real cycle.

Not a Fan of using Clomid for Longer than is Necessary.
As it can cause Long-Term Eye Issues in both Men and Women.
Even Nolvadex has reported Eye Issues again in both Men and Women.

So this is something to consider, if you currently have any Eye Issues, like wearing glasses.
Or there are any Family Histories of Macular Degeneration, or any other Retinal problems.

Just Google Clomid and Visual Disturbances or Tamoxifen and Visual Disturbances...................... JP

 

[jp4355]

Sorry, it took me a minute to look this up in my Library of Articles............................... JP
P.S.
I had to Block the Original Site where this was Published.

That said, there are many case reports and some research summaries have been done and here are just a few examples:

a) Vascular Sludging and Vision Loss. How does Clomid sometimes effect vision and damage the eye? One issue is that it "gunks up" blood flow to the eye. One woman lost vision in one eye due to this. [5]

b) Uveitis. Several cases of uveitis have been reported, which is an inflammation of certain visual tissues. One study reported the case of a woman who lost vision from uveitis after initiating Clomid therapy, then recovered her vision and then lost her vision again when she repeated Clomid therapy. [6]

c) Retinal Blood Vessel Damage. Other case reports include injury to retinal blood vessels. [7]

4. Cytotoxicity. Clomid is known to be cytotoxic (cell-killing) to many types of cells in vitro. One of these studies looked at rabbit corneal epitheal cells and found that "at concentrations of 0.5 20 M, clomiphene killed cells in a concentration-dependent manner." [8] In my mind, this is the biggest risk of Clomid. Is there a chance that it is pro-aging and not antiaging?
Dosage is everything and so maybe this is not an issue and, unfortunately, it is very unlikely to receive funding, because using Clomid to boost fertility and testosterone in men is off label and not particuarly profitable for anyone.

CONCLUSION. Does it really happen in real life? You bet it does. One of our long term member on the P--- T----------- Forum wrote the following: "When I first saw Shippen he put me on Clomid to test for secondary or primary. And I could have stayed on it but I have a side affect of eye blurriness."

 

[PapaNoel]

Very interesting.

I'm in a weird spot here then and not idea what to think.
I had perfect 20/20 vision until I was 14-15 where it degraded, mostly due to being glued to those old crt monitors 24/7. I'm 100% sure that's why.
However, both my parents have had glasses as a requirement for driving but only dad always wear them, at least the last 30 years.

Me, I did laser surgery this start of this year and I got 20/20 vision again, even got better vision than I had with glasses.

Obviously that sounds very concerning and begs the question why we use them at all for PCT?

Now I don't know what to think or do.
Maybe i'll just wait for the doctors appointment and see what he says. If the lump is gone by then, what would all of you guess what it was, was it gyno, staph infection or something else?
Its not like I cant use all of what I have at home for next cycle anyways.

My whole idea/experiment was to see if I could increase my natty levels and avoid TRT.
But at these levels and continued cycles its a matter of time i reccon or what do you think jp?

 

[jp4355]

Very interesting.

I'm in a weird spot here then and not idea what to think.
I had perfect 20/20 vision until I was 14-15 where it degraded, mostly due to being glued to those old crt monitors 24/7. I'm 100% sure that's why.
However, both my parents have had glasses as a requirement for driving but only dad always wear them, at least the last 30 years.

Me, I did laser surgery this start of this year and I got 20/20 vision again, even got better vision than I had with glasses.

Obviously that sounds very concerning and begs the question why we use them at all for PCT?

Now I don't know what to think or do.
Maybe i'll just wait for the doctors appointment and see what he says. If the lump is gone by then, what would all of you guess what it was, was it gyno, staph infection or something else?
Its not like I cant use all of what I have at home for next cycle anyways.

My whole idea/experiment was to see if I could increase my natty levels and avoid TRT.
But at these levels and continued cycles its a matter of time i reccon or what do you think jp?

There are Possible Side Effects for All of the Drugs that we do as AAS users.
I just like to Err on the Side of Caution, and Not run anything unless it's Warranted.

There is 1 Alternative to this, and while it Won't Raise Total Test, it will Raise Free Test.
I've used Proviron as a Bridge between Cycles on and off for years.

It doesn't Suppress Low or Normal LH or FSH.
No changes in Plasma Cholesterol or Triglycerides.
No Adverse Effects on Liver Function.

It will Boost Free Test, it does Bind to the Aromatase Enzyme, and it will Boost Libido.......................... JP
P.S.
Here's a little something from Numerous Studies that I've looked at.
I run it @ 50 Mg a Day ~ Half AM and Half PM.


#1 : The effect of mesterolone on sperm count, on serum follicle stimulating hormone, luteinizing hormone, plasma testosterone and outcome in idiopathic oligospermic men.
Abstract
Two hundred fifty subfertile men with idiopathic oligospermia (count less than 20 million/ml) were treated with mesterolone (100-150 mg/day) for 12 months. Seminal analysis were assayed 3 times and serum follicle stimulating hormone (FSH) luteinizing hormone (LH) and plasma testosterone were assayed once before treatment and repeated at 3, 6, 9 and 12 months after the initiation of treatment. One hundred ten patients (44%) had normal serum FSH, LH and plasma testosterone, 85 patients (34%) had low serum FSH, LH and low plasma testosterone. One hundred seventy-five patients (70%) had moderate oligospermia (count 5 to less than 20 million/ml) and 75 patients (30%) had severe oligospermia (count less than 5 million/ml). Seventy-five moderately oligospermic patients showed significant improvement in the sperm density, total sperm count and motility following mesterolone therapy whereas only 12% showed improvement in the severe oligospermic group. Mesterolone had no depressing effect on low or normal serum FSH and LH levels but had depressing effect on 25% if the levels were elevated. There was no significant adverse effect on testosterone levels or on liver function. One hundred fifteen (46%) pregnancies resulted following the treatment, 9 of 115 (7.8%) aborted and 2 (1.7%) had ectopic pregnancy. Mesterolone was found to be more useful in patients with a sperm count ranging between 5 and 20 million/ml. Those with severe oligospermia (count less than 5 million) do not seem to benefit from this therapy.

 

[Nicky_eye_lids]

It doesn't Suppress Low or Normal LH or FSH.
No changes in Plasma Cholesterol or Triglycerides.
No Adverse Effects on Liver Function.

It will Boost Free Test, it does Bind to the Aromatase Enzyme, and it will Boost Libido.......................... JP
P.S.
Here's a little something from Numerous Studies that I've looked at.
I run it @ 50 Mg a Day ~ Half AM and Half PM.


#1 : The effect of mesterolone on sperm count, on serum follicle stimulating hormone, luteinizing hormone, plasma testosterone and outcome in idiopathic oligospermic men.
Abstract
Two hundred fifty subfertile men with idiopathic oligospermia (count less than 20 million/ml) were treated with mesterolone (100-150 mg/day) for 12 months. Seminal analysis were assayed 3 times and serum follicle stimulating hormone (FSH) luteinizing hormone (LH) and plasma testosterone were assayed once before treatment and repeated at 3, 6, 9 and 12 months after the initiation of treatment. One hundred ten patients (44%) had normal serum FSH, LH and plasma testosterone, 85 patients (34%) had low serum FSH, LH and low plasma testosterone. One hundred seventy-five patients (70%) had moderate oligospermia (count 5 to less than 20 million/ml) and 75 patients (30%) had severe oligospermia (count less than 5 million/ml). Seventy-five moderately oligospermic patients showed significant improvement in the sperm density, total sperm count and motility following mesterolone therapy whereas only 12% showed improvement in the severe oligospermic group. Mesterolone had no depressing effect on low or normal serum FSH and LH levels but had depressing effect on 25% if the levels were elevated. There was no significant adverse effect on testosterone levels or on liver function. One hundred fifteen (46%) pregnancies resulted following the treatment, 9 of 115 (7.8%) aborted and 2 (1.7%) had ectopic pregnancy. Mesterolone was found to be more useful in patients with a sperm count ranging between 5 and 20 million/ml. Those with severe oligospermia (count less than 5 million) do not seem to benefit from this therapy.

good read thanks for sharing!

 

[casanovaaa]

It doesn't Suppress Low or Normal LH or FSH.?

 

[PapaNoel]

So JP, i went ahead with my plan anyhow lol...
And you were completely right, i should have had aromasin on hand.

My lump that i hoped wasn't gyno, is gyno.
It started growing from 500-1000 iu HCG per day (lowered it a bit once the lump started growing)
It was very sore and everything points to gyno sadly...

The good part, I had nolva on hand so I started taking it early, first 40mg per day, then i was bit wasted so 1-2 days it was 80-100mg....
The lump is now almost completely gone, no soreness, no nothing.

I also have aromasin and letro coming this week.
I was SUPER close to getting proviron but i was like, I have no fucking idea about dosing etc and didnt wanna add another thing but ill def look into buying some.

I know prov is used in pct, so it shouldn't be any problems running it along side nolva and clomid?

 

[PapaNoel]

I do have a doctors appointment with a specialist that handles breast cancer, gyno etc etc. coming up.

I'm bit unsure about telling them the truth....
Plus its 2-3 weeks out...so... The lump might be gone by me taking nolva...

Any input or just general ideas here?

 

[jp4355]

It doesn't Suppress Low or Normal LH or FSH.?

It only Suppresses High LH or FSH, and this was only in 25% of the Study Group.

The reason that this is Significant is that During and After a Cycle, your LH and FSH will be either Extremely Low or almost Non-Existent.
As it gets Suppressed during your Cycle and then needs to Rebound Post-Cycle.
So this is why Proviron is a Great Bridge, as it won't Interfere with the Rebounding of your LH and FSH.

But it will help with any Excess Estrogen, as it binds to the Aromatase Enzyme.
It will Boost Free Testosterone, which will help you Build Muscle.

And Lastly, but not Least ~ it will Boost your Libido.
And many Guys complain of Low Libido during PCT or right after........................... JP

 

[PapaNoel]

For how long can you run proviron?
Any long term effects?

 

[jp4355]

For how long can you run proviron?
Any long term effects?

If you look back at the Study I posted above.

This was a 12 Month Study, and No Side Effects were noticed either to Total Testosterone Levels.
Or to Liver Function.
This is the Longest Test for investigating Suppression of LH & FSH.

I seem to remember a Longer Test from years ago.
They were looking at it to Treat Depression, and giving some Really High Dosages.
Like 300 Mg to 450 Mg a day, and it did Suppress Total Testosterone.

But it must have given these guys "Wood for Days".
I can't even imagine taking more than 100 Mg of Proviron a day without wanting to Screw every Woman you see.............. JP
P.S.
If it's Legit Proviron ~ there will Never Ever be a need to Exceed 100 Mg daily.
50 Mg Daily should be more than enough for even the most Jaded User of AAS.

 

[casanovaaa]

so good to see someone whos responsible doing a responsible cycle, hope its going well bro. any sides? how are the gains?