ok me and my boy are on right now im shooting in the am hes shooting right before bed .i told hima and tryed to show him links that shooting at night supresses ur nat GH levels ,and that in am ur levels are the lowest he still insists that levels are the lowest at night ,so which is it whos right ??(me ofcourse)someone has any other links or material that states that am shots are better ???(i tryed to look for ironmasters post on this that i read while back but couldnt find it )
GH am or PM ?debating with friend!
- Thread starter big N
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hhajdo
Community Veteran
Jyzza
Owns QualityMuscle.com
This is what I follow bro and it's working for me and it also make lots of sense...
supergirl said:hey dad
gonna start a debate here with ya.. and don't hold back cause you love me ok
alright... lets take that statement.. "exoGH will supress the natural surge in GH production that we experience during the first 2 hours of deep sleep"
now, with that in mind.. wouldn't it be beneficial to substitute exog gh when your body would naturally produce it?? Meaning that since your natural surge at bedtime is suppressed, replacing the natural cycle would be beneficial...
The research i have done all says to do shots at night... NOW this is also for someone NOT using insulin.. so perhaps with the addition of slin it would change beneficial shot times...
NOW.. speaking from experience, my first gh cycle was afternoon shots post workout.. not much joint pain, not much results..
2nd cycle was bedtime shots.. joints were sore for a month, sleep was great, recovery was better, and then joints healed.. SO IME, gh at bedtime really worked for me...
Bedtime shots are also suggested for Serono users...
so that is still my opinion based on personal experience and research... but i am totally up for a debate on thislol...
so comeon dad.. Bring it!!! hahhahaha... and BTW.. i am sooooo glad you finally came here!!! LUV YOU!!!
Jyzza
Owns QualityMuscle.com
I do 2ius a.m. and 2ius p.m. right before bed time and I fel great.....You will only suppress your natural GH if you shoot it like 3-4 hours before bed time....but if it's right before bed w/ out the use of insulin then you get both...natural GH + 2ius you injected...
Jyzza
Owns QualityMuscle.com
bigjew said:
it takes about 4 hours to kick in after the injection but GH is active anywhere from 10-12 hours.....meaning that after 12 hours natural suppressed GH begins to recover.....
We need hhajdo here so set things straight........It's a first for me hearing that GH is active for 4 hours...maybe I missed something.
medical doctor
New member
here we go again with this subject. Its been killed many times over.
yeah the half life of gh is 4 hrs. do you know what a half life is? a half life is that the drug reaches it 's max blood concentration at that time and then begins to slowly drop. so gh reaches it's max in four hours therfore to keep blood levels stable you need to inject every four hours to keep that dose stable in bloodstream.
JohnnyB
Community Veteran
I read a post by maverick at WWM and he said some things that make a lot of sense. He talked about day time injection not being as effective as pm, because of insulin. He brings up a good point that your insulin levels drop when we go to bed so hgh can be secreted. During the day meals help raise insulin which would lessen or nullify the effects of hgh.
JohnnyB
JohnnyB
hhajdo
Community Veteran
Insulin is not that important in regulation of GH secretion, but glucose is.
Insulin induced hypoglycemia stimulates GH secretion in humans.
http://physrev.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/79/2/511#SEC2_17
...In humans, acute administration of glucose inhibits GH secretion, although there is a rebound release 3-4 h later. In the chronic hyperglycemia of IDDM (type 1), GH secretion is often increased, particularly in poorly managed patients, although basal GH levels can be normalized with proper metabolic control (see Refs. 759, 985 for review)....
Also, hyperglycemia and hyperinsulinemia don't seem to have much impact on sleep induced GH secretion:
Twenty-four-hour profile of growth hormone in cyclic nocturnal total parenteral nutrition.
Yokoyama S, Hirakawa H, Soeda J, Ueno S, Mitomi T.
Department of Surgery, Tokai University School of Medicine, Bohseidai, Isehara, Kanagawa, Japan.
...Peak HGH secretion appeared with the onset of deep sleep despite the concomitant hyperglycemia and hyperinsulinemia induced by TPN at night. Smaller peaks of HGH were also observed during the noninfusion period during the day. Twenty-four-hour profiles of substrates and metabolic hormones indicated a switch from glucose use during the infusion phase to an oxidation of lipids during the noninfusion period.
During cyclic nocturnal TPN, regular rhythm of HGH secretion occurs, and normal childhood growth is achieved...
Insulin induced hypoglycemia stimulates GH secretion in humans.
http://physrev.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/79/2/511#SEC2_17
...In humans, acute administration of glucose inhibits GH secretion, although there is a rebound release 3-4 h later. In the chronic hyperglycemia of IDDM (type 1), GH secretion is often increased, particularly in poorly managed patients, although basal GH levels can be normalized with proper metabolic control (see Refs. 759, 985 for review)....
Also, hyperglycemia and hyperinsulinemia don't seem to have much impact on sleep induced GH secretion:
Twenty-four-hour profile of growth hormone in cyclic nocturnal total parenteral nutrition.
Yokoyama S, Hirakawa H, Soeda J, Ueno S, Mitomi T.
Department of Surgery, Tokai University School of Medicine, Bohseidai, Isehara, Kanagawa, Japan.
...Peak HGH secretion appeared with the onset of deep sleep despite the concomitant hyperglycemia and hyperinsulinemia induced by TPN at night. Smaller peaks of HGH were also observed during the noninfusion period during the day. Twenty-four-hour profiles of substrates and metabolic hormones indicated a switch from glucose use during the infusion phase to an oxidation of lipids during the noninfusion period.
During cyclic nocturnal TPN, regular rhythm of HGH secretion occurs, and normal childhood growth is achieved...
hhajdo
Community Veteran
Acute hyperglycemia can decrease endogenous GH secretion, that has nothing to do with the GH that you inject..
There's nothing wrong with morning/daytime GH injections, the food you eat will not make the GH you inject ineffective...
As for the insulin+GH combo, there is some evidence that insulin can upregulate GH receptors...
Many vets have made great gains on that stack.
Here's a study which shows that insulin + GH is superior than either of them alone...
Growth hormone and insulin combine to improve whole-body and skeletal muscle protein kinetics.
Wolf RF, Heslin MJ, Newman E, Pearlstone DB, Gonenne A, Brennan MF.
Department of Surgery, Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center, New York, NY 10021.
BACKGROUND. A cooperative effect of exogenous insulin and recombinant human growth hormone (r-hGH) with respect to whole-body and skeletal muscle protein metabolism has not been demonstrated previously. This study examined the effect of r-hGH and insulin administration during euglycemic clamping and concurrent amino acid supplementation. METHODS. Twenty-three normal volunteers in the postabsorptive state were either treated with r-hGH for 3 consecutive days before a metabolic study (GH group; n = 10) or not treated (CTRL group; n = 13). The r-hGH dose was 0.2 mg/kg/day (n = 5) or 0.1 mg/kg/day (n = 5). All subjects then received an infusion of 14C-labeled leucine and tritiated phenylalanine, followed by measurement of baseline protein kinetics (GH and CTRL). Subsequently a euglycemic insulin infusion (1 mU/kg/min) with concurrent amino acid infusion was administered, and protein kinetic measurements were repeated at steady state. RESULTS. GH and insulin separately produced an increase in whole-body and skeletal muscle protein net balance. GH plus insulin was associated with a higher net balance of protein than was insulin alone. CONCLUSIONS. r-hGH and insulin in the presence of amino acids and glucose combine to improve whole-body and skeletal muscle protein kinetics.
Timing of GH administration may not be relevant in GH deficient subjects:
Horm Res 1993;39(5-6):188-91 Related Articles, Links
Effect of timing of growth hormone administration on plasma growth-hormone-binding activity, insulin-like growth factor-I and growth in children with a subnormal spontaneous secretion of growth hormone.
Zadik Z, Lieberman E, Altman Y, Chen M, Limoni Y, Landau H.
Pediatric Endocrine Unit, Kaplan Hospital, Rehovot, Israel.
Since normal pulsatile growth-hormone (GH) secretion displays a major and consistent surge during sleep, we studied the effect of timing of GH supplementation on plasma GH-binding protein activity (GH-BP), insulin-like growth factor-I (IGF-I) and growth. 34 prepubertal subjects (28 boys, 6 girls) aged 8-11 years, of short stature (< 2 SD for age), with a GH response to provocative test > 10 micrograms/l and a subnormal 24-hour GH secretion (< 3 micrograms/l), were randomly allocated to receive Bio-Tropin (recombinant GH, Bio-Technology, Israel) 0.81 IU/kg/week in 3 equally divided doses. GH was administered either at 8.00-10.00 h (M group), 14.00-16.00 h (AN group) or 19.00-21.00 h (NT group). Height velocity, IGF-I and GH-BP were determined prior to and after 6 and 12 months on GH therapy in the three groups. There was no significant difference between the three groups in the growth response, IGF-I and GH-BP increase, all of which increased significantly during GH therapy. Although GH levels after the injection decline to preinjection levels after 10 h, the changes induced by GH therapy, as reflected in IGF-I and GH-BP, last in the circulation long enough to prevent fluctuations in its action. The similarity of IGF-I and of GH-BP levels in the three treatment groups might explain the similar growth effects of the 3 protocols.
There's nothing wrong with morning/daytime GH injections, the food you eat will not make the GH you inject ineffective...
As for the insulin+GH combo, there is some evidence that insulin can upregulate GH receptors...
Many vets have made great gains on that stack.
Here's a study which shows that insulin + GH is superior than either of them alone...
Growth hormone and insulin combine to improve whole-body and skeletal muscle protein kinetics.
Wolf RF, Heslin MJ, Newman E, Pearlstone DB, Gonenne A, Brennan MF.
Department of Surgery, Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center, New York, NY 10021.
BACKGROUND. A cooperative effect of exogenous insulin and recombinant human growth hormone (r-hGH) with respect to whole-body and skeletal muscle protein metabolism has not been demonstrated previously. This study examined the effect of r-hGH and insulin administration during euglycemic clamping and concurrent amino acid supplementation. METHODS. Twenty-three normal volunteers in the postabsorptive state were either treated with r-hGH for 3 consecutive days before a metabolic study (GH group; n = 10) or not treated (CTRL group; n = 13). The r-hGH dose was 0.2 mg/kg/day (n = 5) or 0.1 mg/kg/day (n = 5). All subjects then received an infusion of 14C-labeled leucine and tritiated phenylalanine, followed by measurement of baseline protein kinetics (GH and CTRL). Subsequently a euglycemic insulin infusion (1 mU/kg/min) with concurrent amino acid infusion was administered, and protein kinetic measurements were repeated at steady state. RESULTS. GH and insulin separately produced an increase in whole-body and skeletal muscle protein net balance. GH plus insulin was associated with a higher net balance of protein than was insulin alone. CONCLUSIONS. r-hGH and insulin in the presence of amino acids and glucose combine to improve whole-body and skeletal muscle protein kinetics.
Timing of GH administration may not be relevant in GH deficient subjects:
Horm Res 1993;39(5-6):188-91 Related Articles, Links
Effect of timing of growth hormone administration on plasma growth-hormone-binding activity, insulin-like growth factor-I and growth in children with a subnormal spontaneous secretion of growth hormone.
Zadik Z, Lieberman E, Altman Y, Chen M, Limoni Y, Landau H.
Pediatric Endocrine Unit, Kaplan Hospital, Rehovot, Israel.
Since normal pulsatile growth-hormone (GH) secretion displays a major and consistent surge during sleep, we studied the effect of timing of GH supplementation on plasma GH-binding protein activity (GH-BP), insulin-like growth factor-I (IGF-I) and growth. 34 prepubertal subjects (28 boys, 6 girls) aged 8-11 years, of short stature (< 2 SD for age), with a GH response to provocative test > 10 micrograms/l and a subnormal 24-hour GH secretion (< 3 micrograms/l), were randomly allocated to receive Bio-Tropin (recombinant GH, Bio-Technology, Israel) 0.81 IU/kg/week in 3 equally divided doses. GH was administered either at 8.00-10.00 h (M group), 14.00-16.00 h (AN group) or 19.00-21.00 h (NT group). Height velocity, IGF-I and GH-BP were determined prior to and after 6 and 12 months on GH therapy in the three groups. There was no significant difference between the three groups in the growth response, IGF-I and GH-BP increase, all of which increased significantly during GH therapy. Although GH levels after the injection decline to preinjection levels after 10 h, the changes induced by GH therapy, as reflected in IGF-I and GH-BP, last in the circulation long enough to prevent fluctuations in its action. The similarity of IGF-I and of GH-BP levels in the three treatment groups might explain the similar growth effects of the 3 protocols.
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