HRT Exit Strategy...

wow got the axle rose hair cut off? that is awesome!

amazing job with this thread and dedication man!

hope all goes well with the exit and ur body decides to stabilize!

almost as cut as ur avatar, nice job cashout!
 
Great news Cashout, you actually look as if you've made gains in comparison to the avatar pic.

This post has provided me with alot of optimism for my Hormone Replacement Therapy (HRT) exit.

I really hope your numbers stabilize, i have no doubts that they will.

Marc
 
wow got the axle rose hair cut off? that is awesome!

amazing job with this thread and dedication man!

hope all goes well with the exit and ur body decides to stabilize!

almost as cut as ur avatar, nice job cashout!

Yup - the avatar pic was taken on my birthday last summer at the end of a diet phase. The body fat was measured at 7.1%.

Yesterdays's pic my bodyfat is 8.4%
 
Cashout this is a very interesting post,im glad to see that you are doing great.Are you going to get back on the test or are going to try to stay natural.
 
Cashout this is a very interesting post,im glad to see that you are doing great.Are you going to get back on the test or are going to try to stay natural.

I plan to take a wait-and-see approach. As long as my numbers hold up, I'll go the natural route but if I begin to see a drop I'll move back to HRT.

I'm going to post a lot more about this after I get my blood back next week.

I feel like I have really identify some of the factors that may have contributed to my initial decline in T that started back in 2006.
 
What do you feel those factors were Cashout?

Overtraining, excessive cortisol, lack of sleep, low fat diet? I feel those factors contributed to my decline in testosterone 3 years ago.

Marc
 
What do you feel those factors were Cashout?

Overtraining, excessive cortisol, lack of sleep, low fat diet? I feel those factors contributed to my decline in testosterone 3 years ago.

Marc


With the advantage of hindsight, I think there was a combination of factors that contributed to my decline in T. The factors began aligning in Fall of 2006.

In the Fall of 2006, I was pushing myself to my absolute limit in the gym on a daily basis. My nutrition, as it has always been, was spot on. However, there were a couple of new variables that were introduced around that time. I see now that these may have been the precursors to what I have come to call the “perfect storm” of overtraining.

In the Fall of 2006, my son started school. Generally, he is a healthy child but when he started school in 2006, he did seem to pick up every little cough, cold, and bug that ran through his class. Of course he would bring all of those illnesses home to share with me. Typically, I never get sick. From the time I was 15 years old, I can say I’d only been sick twice. So, 21 years, two instances of illness – not too bad.

So, my point in stating this is that in 2006, I was being exposed to various illnesses with a much high and more direct frequency.
Couple that with the next fact – my training was, as it always has been, an effort to push myself to my absolute limit during every workout. That alone, will weakness one’s immune system. When presented with all of the little bugs and colds my son was bring home, in November 2006, I got terrible sick with something called Rotavirus. In the course of 5 days I lost 12 pounds.

After a week off, without ever breaking my diet, I was back in the gym and training to make up for the lost pounds. I felt flat and weak so I resolved to train harder and rebuild. For about 5 months I did and I then I was again hit with an illness. I was in bed for a week again with fever and chills, the whole 9 yards.

After a week off, I was able to recover and decided to push on. Throughout that summer I trained and dieted with the goal of rebuilding yet again. Everything was moving forward on a nice pace until October. At that point, my wife starting working full time again and that shifted a considerable burden to me to manage the home front duties. My mindset was “I got this. No big Deal. I’ve run a 300 million dollar company, I can handle this.” The fact of the matter was that I could but over the next 5 months it wore me down to the point of overtraining and illness once again. So there I was sick again and out of the gym.

At several points during that period, I had my blood tested and check my hormone levels. I did notice a consistent decline in my T from 900+ to 700 to final 579. At that point, I said to myself – “hey, you’re just getting old. It’s time to look at Hormone Replacement Therapy (HRT) as a way to keep this thing going at the level you have come to expect.” Of course, this was not something that I was opposed to given my previous history in competitive bodybuilding and AAS. So, I talked to my local urologist and off I went on the Hormone Replacement Therapy (HRT) path.

Flash forward to today. What I see clearly now is a cycle of overtraining, exposure to illnesses, and tremendous daily stress to which I was not accustom. The harder I worked the worse it got. The worse it got, the harder I worked.

Where I am now, is very stress free, my wife isn’t working any more, very healthy, no one has been sick in our household in over a year – including me and I am going on 2.5 years without an illness, and finally, I am not overtraining but working with my body and listening to its needs.

So summary, overtraining, exposure to illness, stress, and a commitment to work through it contributed to what I see as a downward spiral.

Now, I know how to avoid those conditions and more importantly how to recognize them and act accordingly to stave off any negative impacts.
 
HCG mimics the input signal of LH in the Lydig cells and that in turn cues the testis to, among other things, produce sperm.

Without a sufficent LH-like signal to the Lydig cells, the testis will atrophy. The atrophy will result in a decrease in sperm production. In about 65% of white males, with 200 mg of test a week the atrophy results in azoospermia.

So, depending on one's situation, Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) would not be a requirement for HRT.

There are alot of new studies coming out on fertility and testosterone replacement therapy (TRT), and the scientific knowledge is still evolving. You're correct, that much T will completely shut down spermatogenesis in most men over 3-4 months.

How much one is shut down depends on what their natural T level is - it takes more T to shut off LH/FSH in someone that has a higher natural T (think of a thermostat).

HCG will maintain intratesticular testosterone by replacing the effect of LH, which is necessary for sperm production, and will DELAY azoospermia in men taking doses of T higher than their normal levels, because it allows sperm to mature that have already been initiated by FSH (follicle STIMULATING hormone).

Over the long term, FSH is necessary to initate spermatogenesis, so if you're taking enough T, you can take all the Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) you want, but you will become (temporarily) sterile eventually without adding FSH to HCG.
 
As I have recently past my 2 year anniversary of HRT, I have spent some time reflecting on what I have accomplished with this program.
After extensive research, I turned to Hormone Replacement Therapy (HRT) a possible solution to my declining test levels in 2009. At the time Istarted HRT, my test level was 579 ng/dl. Not low by most standards but about 30% off my normal levels of 900+ ng/dl that I had maintain for some 15 years.
The symptoms of my declining test were as follows...
1. Frequent overtraining. I had reached a point for the first time in my bodybuilding lifestyle where about every 3 months, I would find myself overtrained. In 20 years daily committed train, this had never happened before.
2. Persistent and chronic minor illness. I had begun a steady process of developing repetitive colds and flu-like illnesses that were a function of #1 above.
3. Loss of muscle mass. Because of #1 & especially #2 above, I had drop about nearly 10 pounds of quality muscle.
4. Lack of metal focus. Again, I had never experienced this in my adult life in any capacity. Focus and will are the only things that I have ever possessed in abundance.

In my 2 years on HRT, I can say that I have remedied all of the above symptoms. So, I would declare my Hormone Replacement Therapy (HRT) a smashing success.
However, there is still one facet of my Hormone Replacement Therapy (HRT) that I have yet to assess my EXIT STRATEGY.
Like everything business related Ive owned and been involved in, I always have an exit strategy in the event that it is ever needed.
So, at this juncture, I am considering testing my Hormone Replacement Therapy (HRT) Exit Strategy to see if will indeed produce the results that I expect.
I am considering this not as a means to quit Hormone Replacement Therapy (HRT) but to reassure myself that I have covered all my bases and can proceed forward on Hormone Replacement Therapy (HRT) for the indefinite future knowing that if there is ever an issue down the road, I have already operationalize and tested my exit strategy successfully.
I started constructing my exit strategy based on some of my own previous research and personal experiences from my days using AAS to supplement by competitive bodybuilding. Also, Ive spent a tremendous amount of time and energy in the past 4 weeks discussing my exit strategy with several very knowledgeable physicians.
So, here is the plan that we have constructed and I will follow


Week HCG Clomid Nolva Letro
1 M/W/F/Su 2000 1.25 M/Th
2 T/Th/Sa 2000 1.25 M/Th
3 M/W/F 2000 1.25 M/Th
3 Sat/Sun 100 40 1.25 M/Th
4 Every Day 100 40 1.25 M/Th
5 100 40 1.25 M/Th
6 100 40 1.25 M/Th
7 40 1.25 M/Th
8 40 1.25 M/Th
9 1.25 M/Th
10 1.25 M/Th

I will take my last 100 mg shot of test cyp on the Monday one week before I start my exit. During the week before exiting, I will also have my blood work done for comparative purposes.
My blood work will be done again on the Friday of the 3rd week towards the end of the Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) treatments, again when I discontinue the clomid treatments, and finally, two weeks after I complete the Nolva treatments.
So, I hope to kick this exit strategy off on the Monday Dec 5th.
I will chronicle the results here for those who are interested.

You may feel a little crappy for awhile. Typically, men feel increases and decreases in T.
In other words, your best weeks of testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) are usually in the beginning (wow, this is great!), and your worst are when you stop -- kind of like when you're taking off in an airplane, and when the pilot hits the brakes on landing - you can feel the acceleration and deceleration, but you get used to cruising altitude, even if you're going 500mph.
 
Nice job and I hope your T stays in a range you find acceptable for your lifestyle. I've been on testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) for 15 years and wished I wouldve cycled in an exit strategy once every 6 months, or even yearly (I'm sure I'd be in a better position). That being said, I'm beyond the point of ever being able to come off, but I applaud your commitment, research, and ability to see your T as a tool to ultimately serve your family brother! Please keep us posted, I'm rooting for you Bro!
 
You may feel a little crappy for awhile. Typically, men feel increases and decreases in T.
In other words, your best weeks of TRT are usually in the beginning (wow, this is great!), and your worst are when you stop -- kind of like when you're taking off in an airplane, and when the pilot hits the brakes on landing - you can feel the acceleration and deceleration, but you get used to cruising altitude, even if you're going 500mph.

I'm not certain if you read the details I've provided throughout the entire thread, however, I done with TRT and I completed my exit protocol as of yesterday.

While on TRT and now exiting, I have never felt anything but great.

So, I don't see the question or contribution of your comment in this post.

Am I missing your point or did you miss the rest of the thread?
 
I'm not certain if you read the details I've provided throughout the entire thread, however, I done with TRT and I completed my exit protocol as of yesterday.

While on TRT and now exiting, I have never felt anything but great.

So, I don't see the question or contribution of your comment in this post.

Am I missing your point or did you miss the rest of the thread?

I missed the rest of your thread. Awesome to hear that you felt good during and after your PCT...alot of guys don't, and don't enough time and wind up going back on T.
 
I really have no basis from which to form an opinion regarding HMG and its place in a exit or PCT type of protocol.

There has not been a significant stream of recent research on the drug other than a couple of comparative pharmacological assessments for ovarian stimulation.

My concern would not be the price or the effectiveness of HMG but that people would perceive it as a replacement for Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) and a proven protocol just like they have started to do with triptorelin.

A lot of folks jumped on the triptorelin bandwagon without just clinical support. The sole basis for the "triptorelin for PCT" enthusiasm originated from a very poorly controlled single sample case study done by physician in Italy. It has never been replicated successfully and I truly doubt the results he reported where solely related to the application of triptorelin.

So, short answer, on HMG is I don't know.

A good study comparing Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) only vs. HCG/HMG:

eje-online.org/content/147/5/617.full.pdf

shows that HMG is important for long term maintenance of spermatogenesis, study summary:



In summary, FSH and LH/testosterone in combination
and alone are able to maintain spermatogenesis
to a certain extent. For quantitatively normal
spermatogenesis both gonadotropins are required
 
Blood was drawn at 0730 this morning. Results to be returned on Wednesday.

awesome man! cant wait to see results!

now how long will you give it, if the numbers look good, before u make a decision for more blood work to see ur results again?
 
awesome man! cant wait to see results!

now how long will you give it, if the numbers look good, before u make a decision for more blood work to see ur results again?

Right now I am feeling pretty optimistic about what I might see in my numbers.

I feel good and my training is as good as it has been at any point while on HRT.

The only thing I can say that I have noticed is that I am not quite as hard and grainy as I was while on HRT.

I am sure that is a function of the extra androgens that were floating around in me when my levels were 1500-1800 ng/dl.

I will test again in 60 days regardless of what I see from this blood test. Based on what i see tomorrow, I may opt to go back to the Hormone Replacement Therapy (HRT) route.

In fact if I see my numbers less than 650 ng/dl, I will promptly go back to HRT.

If I am above 650 range, I'll take a wait and see approach for the next 60 days and another blood test.
 
Update on March 5th blood work

Sheets just faxed to me and the data looks pretty good...

Total test: 897 ng/dl
test Free: 37.2
LH: 5.8
FSH: 5.9
SHBG: 27.3
E2: 23.2

AST 34
ALT 33

My T is down from 1048 to now 897. My total T is again close to what it was with the Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) blast at the start of the exit. This confirms what I've already known from the past 20 years of my life - my total T is back down to the normal 20 year level for me which has hovered around 900 ng/dl for most of my adult life.

What I know is that from the last test to this one, the Clomid and Nolva were obviously elevating my T level just like they were suppose to do.

I see my E2 is back down to a traditional level too. That is important because I don't expect any feedback crash b/c of elevated E2. That is a big reason I think a lot of guys tank so quickly after they come off.

For now, I am going to stay off but i a m only 30 days removed from any kind of Test support drugs so I plan to test again in 60 days to see where I sand.

Liver enzymes back in at baseline since stopping the Clomid/Nolva
 
wow, great read cashout. Almost looks like no need for testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) lol! It makes me glad to see someone having a positive exit because I know at some point I will be trying to have kids and am not looking forward to the exit. I had 377 t levels to begin with, so who knows... Maybe they can actually stay slightly elevated! regardless, great read and thank you.
 
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