Humalin vs Humalog: An Intelligent Debate

I know people say slin makes you fat but I just can't find the science to back it up, not that that is always the case alot of times bb's prove stuff then science backs it up :)

I'd suggest this though. Track your calories and diet during the whole time your using slin not just while it is active, I bet the fat gain comes more from over eating calories than it does from eating fat while slin is active. Slin also stops the break down of lipids while it is active, so you aren't burning fat for the time it is active which may add to thinking you gain fat.

I will also say this, one of the most effective diets I have ever uses is TKD. Using slin to get into keto Sun. night and then using 5-6 iu of slin post work out mon,tue,thur,fri, and one 50 gr carb/50 gr pro shake in 30 minutes. THen back to fat/protein only. I used Hum-r this whole time. I lost about 3lb over 3 weeks. However I lost about 4 or 5 pounds of fat and added muscle. Lifts all went up a little over the 3 weeks, and thanks to the glucose storage from slin, my work outs were not as flat as usual when doing keto. Of any diet that should have made me get fat it would be steak and cheese 2 hours after shooting slin. I maintain its about the calories from personal experience and what little science I can understand :)
 
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awe... finaly a thread i can give real life experience on and elijah pretty much summed up everything i would have said.:(
anyways ive used both many times.
for faster recovery post workout humalog is better.
if you realy want the anabloc effects and noticable muscle growth use humalin r or n.
as for fat gain, elijah pretty much summed it up. i posted a while ago about how i was eating a significant amount of fat post shot and not gaining any fat because the total amount of calories and carbs stayed within reason.
humalog is otc in canada.
and i dont think it matters a whole lot which you use for a first time as long as youve done your research and know how to listen to your body.
 
elijah_123 said:
I know people say slin makes you fat but I just can't find the science to back it up, not that that is always the case alot of times bb's prove stuff then science backs it up :)

I'd suggest this though. Track your calories and diet during the whole time your using slin not just while it is active, I bet the fat gain comes more from over eating calories than it does from eating fat while slin is active. Slin also stops the break down of lipids while it is active, so you aren't burning fat for the time it is active which may add to thinking you gain fat.

I will also say this, one of the most effective diets I have ever uses is TKD. Using slin to get into keto Sun. night and then using 5-6 iu of slin post work out mon,tue,thur,fri, and one 50 gr carb/50 gr pro shake in 30 minutes. THen back to fat/protein only. I used Hum-r this whole time. I lost about 3lb over 3 weeks. However I lost about 4 or 5 pounds of fat and added muscle. Lifts all went up a little over the 3 weeks, and thanks to the glucose storage from slin, my work outs were not as flat as usual when doing keto. Of any diet that should have made me get fat it would be steak and cheese 2 hours after shooting slin. I maintain its about the calories from personal experience and what little science I can understand :)

LOL, i love steak and cheese. for a while i was eating a large steak and cheese after my slin shots too.
 
I agree with ironmaster that you have to know your reason for using insulin.

BTW, insulin is not as anabolic as some think.

Its effect on suppression of protein breakdown is probably more significant...

It was thought that it only has a permissive role on protein synthesis, where only a little is needed for an increase of protein synthesis caused by hyperaminoacidemia, although some recent studies have shown that extreme hyperinsulinemia can promote anabolism ...

Insulin makes you fat by decreasing lypolisis & increasing lipogenesis, so if you want to minimize fat gain, a short acting insulin is a better option.

For bulking, you might get better results with long acting...

As for the window of opportunity, everyone knows how important it is to consume their postworkout drink after exercise, but the effect of exercise on muscle protein turnover is not as short lasting as some think.

Muscle protein synthesis is elevated >24 hours after exercise, degradation is also elevated quite long also..






Diabetes 1999 May;48(5):949-57 Related Articles, Links


Insulin action on muscle protein kinetics and amino acid transport during recovery after resistance exercise.

Biolo G, Williams BD, Fleming RY, Wolfe RR.

Department of Internal Medicine, University of Texas Medical Branch, and the Shriners Burns Hospital, Galveston, USA.

We have determined the individual and combined effects of insulin and prior exercise on leg muscle protein synthesis and degradation, amino acid transport, glucose uptake, and alanine metabolism. Normal volunteers were studied in the postabsorptive state at rest and about 3 h after a heavy leg resistance exercise routine. The leg arteriovenous balance technique was used in combination with stable isotopic tracers of amino acids and biopsies of the vastus lateralis muscle. Insulin was infused into a femoral artery to increase the leg insulin concentrations to high physiologic levels without substantively affecting the whole-body level. Protein synthesis and degradation were determined as rates of intramuscular phenylalanine utilization and appearance, and muscle fractional synthetic rate (FSR) was also determined. Leg blood flow was greater after exercise than at rest (P<0.05). Insulin accelerated blood flow at rest but not after exercise (P<0.05). The rates of protein synthesis and degradation were greater during the postexercise recovery (65+/-10 and 74+/-10 nmol x min(-1) x 100 ml(-1) leg volume, respectively) than at rest (30+/-7 and 46+/-8 nmol x min(-1) x 100 ml(-1) leg volume, respectively; P<0.05). Insulin infusion increased protein synthesis at rest (51+/-4 nmol x min(-1) x 100 ml(-1) leg volume) but not during the postexercise recovery (64+/-9 nmol x min(-1) x 100 ml(-1) leg volume; P<0.05). Insulin infusion at rest did not change the rate of protein degradation (48+/-3 nmol x min(-1) 100 ml(-1) leg volume). In contrast, insulin infusion after exercise significantly decreased the rate of protein degradation (52+/-9 nmol x min(-1) x 100 ml(-1) leg volume)....

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J Clin Invest 1995 Oct;96(4):1722-9 Related Articles, Links


Insulin and insulin-like growth factor-I enhance human skeletal muscle protein anabolism during hyperaminoacidemia by different mechanisms.

Fryburg DA, Jahn LA, Hill SA, Oliveras DM, Barrett EJ.

Department of Internal Medicine, University of Virginia Health Sciences Center, Charlottesville 22908, USA.

Insulin inhibits proteolysis in human muscle thereby increasing protein anabolism. In contrast, IGF-I promotes muscle protein anabolism principally by stimulating protein synthesis. As increases or decreases of plasma amino acids may affect protein turnover in muscle and also alter the muscle's response to insulin and/or IGF-I, this study was designed to examine the effects of insulin and IGF-I on human muscle protein turnover during hyperaminoacidemia. We measured phenylalanine balance and [3H]-phenylalanine kinetics in both forearms of 22 postabsorptive adults during a continuous [3H] phenylalanine infusion. Measurements were made basally and at 3 and 6 h after beginning a systemic infusion of a balanced amino acid mixture that raised arterial phenylalanine concentration about twofold. Throughout the 6 h, 10 subjects received insulin locally (0.035 mU/min per kg) into one brachial artery while 12 other subjects were given intraaterial IGF-I (100 ng/min per kg) to raise insulin or IGF-I concentrations, respectively, in the infused arm. The contralateral arm in each study served as a simultaneous control for the effects of amino acids (aa) alone. Glucose uptake and lactate release increased in the insulin- and IGF-I-infused forearms (P < 0.01) but did not change in the contralateral (aa alone) forearm in either study. In the aa alone arm in both studies, hyperaminoacidemia reversed the postabsorptive net phenylalanine release by muscle to a net uptake (P < 0.025, for each) due to a stimulation of muscle protein synthesis. In the hormone-infused arms, the addition of either insulin or IGF-I promoted greater positive shifts in phenylalanine balance than the aa alone arm (P < 0.01). With insulin, the enhanced anabolism was due to inhibition of protein degradation (P < 0.02), whereas IGF-I augmented anabolism by a further stimulation of protein synthesis above aa alone (P < 0.02). We conclude that: (a) hyperaminoacidemia specifically stimulates muscle protein synthesis; (b) insulin, even with hyperaminoacidemia, improves muscle protein balance solely by inhibiting proteolysis; and (c) hyperaminoacidemia combined with IGF-I enhances protein synthesis more than either alone...


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Int J Sport Nutr Exerc Metab 2001 Dec;11 Suppl:S164-9 Related Articles, Links


Control of muscle protein breakdown: effects of activity and nutritional states.

Wolfe RR.

Department of Surgery/Metabolism, University of Texas Medical Branch, Shriners Burns Hospital, Galveston 77550, USA.

We propose that there is a link between muscle protein synthesis and breakdown that is regulated, in part, through maintenance of the free intracellular pool of essential amino acids. For example, we propose that muscle protein breakdown is paradoxically elevated in the anabolic state following resistance exercise in part because the even greater stimulation of synthesis would otherwise deplete this pool. Thus, factors regulating muscle protein breakdown must be evaluated in the context of the prevailing rate of muscle protein synthesis. Further, the direct effect of factors on breakdown may depend on the physiological state. For example, local hyperinsulinemia suppresses accelerated muscle protein breakdown after exercise, but not normal resting breakdown. Thus, factors regulating muscle protein breakdown in human subjects are complex and interactive.

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Effect of physiologic hyperinsulinemia on skeletal muscle protein synthesis and breakdown in man.

Gelfand RA, Barrett EJ.

Although insulin stimulates protein synthesis and inhibits protein breakdown in skeletal muscle in vitro, the actual contribution of these actions to its anabolic effects in man remains unknown. Using the forearm perfusion method together with systemic infusion of L-[ring-2,6-3H]phenylalanine and L-[1-14C]leucine, we measured steady state amino acid exchange kinetics across muscle in seven normal males before and in response to a 2-h intraarterial infusion of insulin. Postabsorptively, the muscle disposal (Rd) of phenylalanine (43 +/- 5 nmol/min per 100 ml forearm) and leucine (113 +/- 13) was exceeded by the concomitant muscle production (Ra) of these amino acids (57 +/- 5 and 126 +/- 9 nmol/min per dl, respectively), resulting in their net release from the forearm (-14 +/- 4 and -13 +/- 5 nmol/min per dl, respectively). In response to forearm hyperinsulinemia (124 +/- 11 microU/ml), the net balance of phenylalanine and leucine became positive (9 +/- 3 and 61 +/- 8 nmol/min per dl, respectively (P less than 0.005 vs. basal). Despite the marked increase in net balance, the tissue Rd for both phenylalanine (42 +/- 2) and leucine (124 +/- 9) was unchanged from baseline, while Ra was markedly suppressed (to 33 +/- 5 and 63 +/- 9 nmol/min per dl, respectively, P less than 0.01).Since phenylalanine is not metabolized in muscle (i.e., its only fates are incorporation into or release from protein) these results strongly suggest that in normal man, physiologic elevations in insulin promote net muscle protein anabolism primarily by inhibiting protein breakdown, rather than by stimulating protein synthesis.


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Int J Sport Nutr Exerc Metab 2001 Mar;11(1):109-32 Related Articles, Links

Exercise, protein metabolism, and muscle growth.

Tipton KD, Wolfe RR.

Metabolism Division, Department of Surgery, University of Texas Medial Branch-Galveston, Galveston, TX 77550-2720, USA.

Exercise has a profound effect on muscle growth, which can occur only if muscle protein synthesis exceeds muscle protein breakdown; there must be a positive muscle protein balance. Resistance exercise improves muscle protein balance, but, in the absence of food intake, the balance remains negative (i.e., catabolic). The response of muscle protein metabolism to a resistance exercise bout lasts for 24-48 hours; thus, the interaction between protein metabolism and any meals consumed in this period will determine the impact of the diet on muscle hypertrophy. Amino acid availability is an important regulator of muscle protein metabolism. The interaction of postexercise metabolic processes and increased amino acid availability maximizes the stimulation of muscle protein synthesis and results in even greater muscle anabolism than when dietary amino acids are not present. Hormones, especially insulin and testosterone, have important roles as regulators of muscle protein synthesis and muscle hypertrophy. Following exercise, insulin has only a permissive role on muscle protein synthesis, but it appears to inhibit the increase in muscle protein breakdown. Ingestion of only small amounts of amino acids, combined with carbohydrates, can transiently increase muscle protein anabolism, but it has yet to be determined if these transient responses translate into an appreciable increase in muscle mass over a prolonged training period.


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J Nutr 2002 Oct;132(10):3225S-7S Related Articles, Links

Latency, duration and dose response relationships of amino acid effects on human muscle protein synthesis.

Rennie MJ, Bohe J, Wolfe RR.

Division of Molecular Physiology, School of Life Sciences, University of Dundee, Scotland, United Kingdom. m.j.rennie@dundee.ac.uk

The components of the stimulatory effect of food on net deposition of protein are beginning to be identified and separated. One of the most important of these appears to be the effect of amino acids per se in stimulating muscle anabolism. Amino acids appear to have a linear stimulatory effect within the range of normal diurnal plasma concentrations from postabsorptive to postprandial. Within this range, muscle protein synthesis (measured by incorporation of stable isotope tracers of amino acids into biopsied muscle protein) appears to be stimulated approximately twofold; however, little further increase occurs when very high concentrations of amino acids (>2.5 times the normal postabsorptive plasma concentration) are made available. Amino acids provided in surfeit of the ability of the system to synthesize protein are disposed of by oxidation, ureagenesis and gluconeogenesis. The stimulatory effect of amino acids appears to be time dependent; a square wave increase in the availability of amino acids causes muscle protein synthesis to be stimulated and to fall back to basal values, despite continued amino acid availability. The relationship between muscle protein synthesis and insulin availability suggests that most of the stimulatory effects occur at low insulin concentrations, with large increases having no effect. These findings may have implications for our understanding of the body's requirements for protein. The maximal capacity for storage of amino acids as muscle protein probably sets an upper value on the extent to which amino acids can be stored after a single meal.
 
Exercise & protein turnover:

The time course for elevated muscle protein synthesis following heavy resistance exercise.

MacDougall JD, Gibala MJ, Tarnopolsky MA, MacDonald JR, Interisano SA, Yarasheski KE.

Department of Kinesiology, McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario.

It has been shown that muscle protein synthetic rate (MPS) is elevated in humans by 50% at 4 hrs following a bout of heavy resistance training, and by 109% at 24 hrs following training. This study further examined the time course for elevated muscle protein synthesis by examining its rate at 36 hrs following a training session. Six healthy young men performed 12 sets of 6- to 12-RM elbow flexion exercises with one arm while the opposite arm served as a control. MPS was calculated from the in vivo rate of incorporation of L-[1,2-13C2] leucine into biceps brachii of both arms using the primed constant infusion technique over 11 hrs. At an average time of 36 hrs postexercise, MPS in the exercised arm had returned to within 14% of the control arm value, the difference being nonsignificant. It is concluded that following a bout of heavy resistance training, MPS increases rapidly, is more than double at 24 hrs, and thereafter declines rapidly so that at 36 hrs it has almost returned to baseline.



Mixed muscle protein synthesis and breakdown after resistance exercise in humans.

Phillips SM, Tipton KD, Aarsland A, Wolf SE, Wolfe RR.

Metabolism Unit, Shriners Burns Institute, Galveston, Texas, USA.

Mixed muscle protein fractional synthesis rate (FSR) and fractional breakdown rate (FBR) were examined after an isolated bout of either concentric or eccentric resistance exercise. Subjects were eight untrained volunteers (4 males, 4 females). Mixed muscle protein FSR and FBR were determined using primed constant infusions of [2H5]phenylalanine and 15N-phenylalanine, respectively. Subjects were studied in the fasted state on four occasions: at rest and 3, 24, and 48 h after a resistance exercise bout. Exercise was eight sets of eight concentric or eccentric repetitions at 80% of each subject's concentric 1 repetition maximum. There was no significant difference between contraction types for either FSR, FBR, or net balance (FSR minus FBR). Exercise resulted in significant increases above rest in muscle FSR at all times: 3 h = 112%, 24 h = 65%, 48 h = 34% (P < 0.01). Muscle FBR was also increased by exercise at 3 h (31%; P < 0.05) and 24 h (18%; P < 0.05) postexercise but returned to resting levels by 48 h. Muscle net balance was significantly increased after exercise at all time points [(in %/h) rest = -0.0573 +/- 0.003 (SE), 3 h = -0.0298 +/- 0.003, 24 h = -0.0413 +/- 0.004, and 48 h = -0.0440 +/- 0.005], and was significantly different from zero at all time points (P < 0.05). There was also a significant correlation between FSR and FBR (r = 0.88, P < 0.001). We conclude that exercise resulted in an increase in muscle net protein balance that persisted for up to 48 h after the exercise bout and was unrelated to the type of muscle contraction performed.
 
Awesome thread so far guys. I have a single tear rolling down my cheek.

Considering I am thinking of bulking, I may have to go ahead with humalin when I give slin a try.
 
Almighty,
You could combine the two, 50/50 ratio, that way you get a quicker spike, plus the sustained release of humulin.
 
Alimighty you can also inject Hum-R IM and speed up the onset considerably, especially if you do your delts or bis and then move that muscle alot. (Flap your arms, curl a gallon jug) you can also use about 1-3 more iu because Im injects seem to hinder the full absorbtion (sorry lost the study for that, Roadhouse or Bronco probably know it)

About slin being a transport chemical, I believe that is a false representation.

It increases the use and storage of glucose from the liver, which means it shoves it and the nutrients it carries into muscle (vitamins, creatine, maybe some protien) which aids greatly in the recover of the muscle, it isn't strongly muscle building on its own as hhajdo pointed out. But the combination of "overfilling" the muscle and stopping the break down of protein go a great length towards recovery and growth. Slin alone will let you pack on muscle. Using fairly high doses with no other chemical help I added consistantly 4 lb of muscle a week for 4 weeks. At the dose I was using however the amount of carbs I had to consume led to a fair amount of fat gain also because I exceeded my calorie limit. I ate VERY clean the whole time, (about a total of 20 gr of fat over the 4 weeks while slin was in my system) and still gained fat because of the huge amount of calories I was taking in.
 
That is a good point about the mixture, but seeing as this will be my first time with slin I would rather not use something so complicated.
 
well there are advantages and disadvantages to using both R or Log. What i want to know is what kind of dosages are you using? i know the usual protocol is to start out low and then end up around 10-15 iu in a shot. but why would everyone use the same amt? i remember bouncers thread on insulin and he was using 10iu. this got me to thinking i weigh alot less than he does why do i need 10 iu wouldnt something around 5 be just as benefcial for me? i just wanted eveyone elses opinions on doses
 
downwardspiral said:
well there are advantages and disadvantages to using both R or Log. What i want to know is what kind of dosages are you using? i know the usual protocol is to start out low and then end up around 10-15 iu in a shot. but why would everyone use the same amt? i remember bouncers thread on insulin and he was using 10iu. this got me to thinking i weigh alot less than he does why do i need 10 iu wouldnt something around 5 be just as benefcial for me? i just wanted eveyone elses opinions on doses

It depends on your bodies sensativity to insulin. sk* on elite recently tried slin and he claims that he didnt see any results until he bumped the dosage up to insane numbers, Im talking between 50-100iu.

Then again, some guys get hypo after only 7iu.
 
It is entirely possible. I used 100 IU's a few times. THen you gain fat, the amount of calories to keep you out of hypo is to much for your body to handle. And even Hum-r stays in your system for 8-9 hours. It is NOT a pleasant experience I had to sip on gatorade walking up stairs between classes.

Not only is that dose dangerous but your gauranteed to get fat.
I have found that 30 is the most that I can handle with out the sides becoming to annoying. Even at that I have noticed little difference between 30 and 18. The only difference comes in fat gain because you have to eat so many carbs at that level to stay normal.

Sk must be extremely insulin resistant to take 40 iu and not notice anything, poor guy needs to get his diet in check big time.
 
Yes, insane is the proper word, I just wanted to see how far I could push it. Please no one try it :) Or if you do tell a friend what you are doing, and carry around two big bottles of gatorade, a bag of candy and eat every hour.

Just remember, too much test you get gyno and no nuts. Too much insulin you die and die fat :)
 
i think people get somewhat resistant while using insulin, thus reducing the side effects, but i think taking massive doses is uneccessary. the sides go away somewhat and you need less carbs, but i noticed no greater effect from 20+ u's than with 14-16. that seems to be the max i need to get the benefits. sure i can handle much more no prob but i never noticed any additional benefit to justify using more.

roadhouse, i noticed the diarhea too. thought i was the only one. i swear i thought someone switched my slin with pgf2a
 
Diarhea thats odd, I can say that never happened. Were alot of your carbs filled with fiber?

Hmm it would be nice if the pgf2a fairy would come change some of mine to pgf2a :p
 
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pgf is not a lot more expensive than humalog. id thin k twice before using it though. maybe think three times
i think the diarhea is from the larger protein shakes i take when using slin. thsoe things have never agreed with me. poor toilet
 
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