Humalin vs Humalog: An Intelligent Debate
- Thread starter The Almighty
- Start date
Trenimator76
New member
The more your exposed to insulin the more your body will be risistant to it which will lead to fat cells. thats why I would prefer log. and also takin ala before u take that glucose/carb drink will turn most of the muscle cells sensitive again to insulin and take in more carbs/glucose rather than convert to fat. If your insulin resisntat than you can be fucked and will need pills like metofin for a period of time to get your cells sensitive back to insulin.
I have read that a lot of guys like to take slin twice a day, once in the morning and once post workout. Wouldnt it sound like a good idea to use Humalin in the morning since its more anabolic and you dont need the quick spike to fall in the post workout "window", and humalog post workout so you can make sure the spike falls within the "window"?
gorilla_boy
Special
Easto said:
yes
elijah_123
New member
Trenimator76 said:
Any evidence or studies for this, I've heard the myths but I've not seen proof either in my own use or in science yet.
Being insulin resistant does not mean more fat cells, your body never makes more fat cells after age 6-8. Exposure to insulin does not make you resistant to it's effects. If anything I suggest using inject insulin after a work out is more healthy than drinking a 100 gr simple carb shake and forcing your body to make the insulin. Also along the lines of being resistant because you have taken alot of insulin I can get good effect from 15-20 even though I had used 50-100 of Hum-r.
Also my knowledge of ALA is weak so please correct me here. But i understood ala to mimic the action of insulin not make insulin more effective?
Lastly insulin resistance is something you can get rid of naturally by a healthy diet, loosing weight and being physically active. I have seen NO proof of insulin use leading to being diabetic. How exactly does metofin reduce one's insulin resistance btw?
crazymike
New member
There is a lot of good info in this thread, thanks Almighty for starting it.
Like others I work out in the evening and end workout around 7-730 and in bed by 10-11. So it sounds like Humalog is a better choice their. Now
My question is 2 fold. I take a post workout shake that consists of 600 calories, mostly simple carbs(around 100-125) and 30g of protein. What is the difference of insulin spike of me injecting or getting it naturally. Is it really THAT much of a difference? Secondly if I was to use slin, can I still drink this shake or do i need to cut down on the calories/carbs?
My other question is are their any benefits of injecting slin in the morning and using Humalin-r instead of injecting post workout. I realize post w/o would be better. I think it is a lot safer in the morning since I w/o at night. What are your thoughts?
Like others I work out in the evening and end workout around 7-730 and in bed by 10-11. So it sounds like Humalog is a better choice their. Now
My question is 2 fold. I take a post workout shake that consists of 600 calories, mostly simple carbs(around 100-125) and 30g of protein. What is the difference of insulin spike of me injecting or getting it naturally. Is it really THAT much of a difference? Secondly if I was to use slin, can I still drink this shake or do i need to cut down on the calories/carbs?
My other question is are their any benefits of injecting slin in the morning and using Humalin-r instead of injecting post workout. I realize post w/o would be better. I think it is a lot safer in the morning since I w/o at night. What are your thoughts?
elijah_123
New member
crazymike said:
Post work out at 7:30 is definately going to be safe with Humalog and also less chance of fat gain if you over shoot your carbs. If you wanted to use Hum-R you should get used to it while awake and see if it clears your system in 4 hours, which is unlikely with any signifigant dose, stay with Humalog here.
With that many simple carbs the insulin spike is going to be large naturally. Two things to consider here.
1) I don't have direct numbers but the injected insulin (especially if you use 10-20 iu) will be larger than natrually produced.
2) The inject of insulin is much easier on your pancreas than forcing it to make that much insulin. So you are likely healthier in the long run with injecting.
About when to use. Many people will use it twice a day. Hum-r and clean WELL planned meals while it is active, then log post work out. We have looked at the limited anabolic potential of slin already in this thread. I suggest it may be a little stronger than is mentioned but regardless it will pack nutrients and glucose into your muscles which lead to a better work out that night (more energy) and the post work out will help combat the degredation of protein. I would suggest getting used to the log post work out and get your diet in check, and then move to using it upon waking (before a meal so you body is carb depleted) and gradually move up from 3-5 iu in the morning.
I would reduce the amount of carbs in your post work out shake. Even when I inject 20 Iu I use no more than 60 gr of carbs, then a big bowl of oatmeal in an hour. THe large amount of sugar in your shake is primarily to get a good insulin spike, which the injection will provide. From there you only need to supply the amount of glucose your body can use. Going over leads to fat gain.
Trenimator76
New member
your body cells will become resistant to insulin when large amount of insulin is being forced. it is your body's way of controlling balance and maintaining homeostasis. Your body doesnt want u to be huge, your body want you to save your life when it comes to a major end of the world catastrophe. So it would rather shift it to fat cells. Just like androgen. The more you use it the more your body will resist to it and u have to up the dose. Its common sense bro. Thats why u uping the dose of insulin. NOw think about this. Normal sugar level is 70-110 on a normal person. Now type 2 diabetics which mean they are making insulin but the body is resisting it take 6 units of Humulin R when there blood sugar levels reach 300. Now at the begining u probally use about 4 units then u feelin hypo. Later on u dont feel it as much which means your cells are resisiting it now u have to up the dose. all the way to 100units. That is fuckin crazy. If u do your search BB. use metofin to keep there cells from resisting insulin. Do your search, it is a very common drug among BBlders. Now there has been alot of studies on ALA with keeping your cells sensitive too. Thats why it has a note in there that u should contact a DR. before using if your diabetic because when used with insulin it might drop your sugar waaay low. So my advice to you bro if u are taking 30 iu to 100 iu is u better invest in a glucose monitor and check your blood sugar early in the morning upon rising and fasting and if its over 110 then youll be on your way to being a daibetic.elijah_123 said:
elijah_123
New member
Here is another question to ponder over. Is insulin a good post-cycle tool?
I suggest it is, but have no proof because I've not tried it but wanted to get your opinions as I will likely try it after my upcoming cycle.
Here are the benefits I see.
1) It prevents the breakdown of muscle tissue.
2) It is at least slightly muscle building, it does increase the uptake of amino acids and nutrients into the muscle and exerts a anabolic effect.
3) It does not suppress the htpa
4) It combines excellently with GH
I suggest it is, but have no proof because I've not tried it but wanted to get your opinions as I will likely try it after my upcoming cycle.
Here are the benefits I see.
1) It prevents the breakdown of muscle tissue.
2) It is at least slightly muscle building, it does increase the uptake of amino acids and nutrients into the muscle and exerts a anabolic effect.
3) It does not suppress the htpa
4) It combines excellently with GH
elijah_123
New member
Wrong, insulin doesn't have some personality that says, "Hey lets save some fat so we can be ready incase we don't have food tomorrow." Your body does this to an extent but it is controlled more by the thyroid than pancreas. Also insulin makes fat because the liver is full of glucose:
Insulin and Lipid Metabolism
The metabolic pathways for utilization of fats and carbohydrates are deeply and intricately intertwined. Considering insulin's profound effects on carbohydrate metabolism, it stands to reason that insulin also has important effects on lipid metabolism. Notable effects of insulin on lipid metabolism include the following:
* Insulin promotes synthesis of fatty acids in the liver. As discussed above, insulin is stimulatory to synthesis of glycogen in the liver. However, as glycogen accumulates to high levels (roughly 5% of liver mass), further synthesis is strongly suppressed.
When the liver is saturated with glycogen, any additional glucose taken up by hepatocytes is shunted into pathways leading to synthesis of fatty acids, which are exported from the liver as lipoproteins. The lipoproteins are ripped apart in the circulation, providing free fatty acids for use in other tissues, including adipocytes, which use them to synthesize triglyceride.
* Insulin inhibits breakdown of fat in adipose tissue by inhibiting the intracellular lipase that hydrolyzes triglycerides to release fatty acids.
Insulin facilitates entry of glucose into adipocytes, and within those cells, glucose can be used to synthesize glycerol. This glycerol, along with the fatty acids delivered from the liver, are used to synthesize triglyceride within the adipocyte. By these mechanisms, insulin is involved in further accumulation of triglyceride in fat cells
Again your wrong, I stated I had used up to 100 IU as an experiment for 4 weeks. Now I use 15-30 and se very good results. If your theory was correct I should be needing 150 IU now. I would ask you to find proof of your theory that using insulin causes you to become diabetic, but there is not one.
I searched, nothing found, i searched at bb.com, au, here, and elite. I even searched google.com for metofin and found this:
METOFIN® is a seamless internally-grooved copper tube for use in heat exchangers(evaporation) in refrigeration and air-conditioning systems. ...
Perhaps the drug name your looking for is different.
This thread is about knowledge and use. Not about rumors and wives tales, bring your proof either real life experience or scientific studies.
Post one of the studies to educate us all. Don't throw facts with no proof around. Even if they are true, lets make this thread a GREAT reference where all this info can be posted and learned from.
Got one, and all is fine.
In closing please post the study proving you become diabetic. If anything injecting insulin saves your pancreas from being over worked by injesting 150+ gr of carbs at once.
Also please let us know what drug your talking about when you say metofin.
Above all, please bring proof (studies or experience) of what your claiming here and help us all, or don't spread rumors and hurt those who don't know better.
Last edited:
bronco944
Pro Bodybuilder
if using too much slin could amke you a diabetic id be one buy now. i used it 1-2 times a day for over three months in high school during wrestling season. that was when i was 17. ive used it off and on since then. im turning 21 in june. ask iron master if hes diabetic. hes been using slin and gh for longer than ive even known of these boards. btw that 3 months i used ed i was using humalin r. ive been using post w/o now for past 2 months and am gonna keep going. untill i start run and finish my cycle. i have also never seen any type of evidence that exo slin use the way we use it can make you a diabetic. maybe if one was using humalin n twice a day, every day for a very long period of time them maybe they could have a problem. but ive never heard of any feedback mechanism to shut down the pancreas like our hpta gets shut down from gear.
elijah_123
New member
bronco944 said:
I know
just my subtle way of asking him to put a little more thought into what he is saying.Here is info about metformin.
Mechanism of Action
Metformin is an antihyperglycemic agent which improves glucose tolerance in patients with type 2 diabetes, lowering both basal and postprandial plasma glucose. Its pharmacologic mechanisms of action are different from other classes of oral antihyperglycemic agents.
Metformin decreases hepatic glucose production, decreases intestinal absorption of glucose, and improves insulin sensitivity by increasing peripheral glucose uptake and utilization. Unlike sulfonylureas, metformin does not produce hypoglycemia in either patients with type 2 diabetes or normal subjects (except in special circumstances, see PRECAUTIONS) and does not cause hyperinsulinemia. With metformin
therapy, insulin secretion remains unchanged while fasting insulin levels and day-long plasma insulin response may actually decrease.
So it does more than just re-sensitize cells, but you are correct on its use as a suppliment by bbers.
i'm currently studying to be a pharmacist, so maybe I can post some helpers...
like it has been said, Humulin and Humalog can be obtained OTC in Canada.
About Humulin: you have to be careful about which type you used:
Humulin-R, regular, rapidly acting insulin and short duration of activity (about 6-8 hours)
Humulin-N, NPH, intermediate acting insulin, slower onset of action than Regular, longer duration of activity (up to 24 hours)
Humulin-L, Lente, (insulin + zinc) intermediate acting insulin, slower onset of action than Regular, longer duration of activity (up to 24 hours)
Humulin-U, Ultralente, (insulin + zinc) long acting insulin with a slower onset of action than regular insulin and a longer duration of activity (at least 24 hours of more)
Humulin mixtures (10/90, 20/80, 30/70, 60/40, and 50/50) of Regular (R) and Isophane (N), intermediate acting, more rapid onset of action than NPH only, last up to 24 hours.
There are also mix of N, L, U and R, depending on your needs. Mixtures, N, L, U not to be used i.v. S.c. administration at upper arms, thighs, buttocks or abdomen, in rotation. but you know this stuff
here are some infos about humalog, as you know, it is quicker. some results of a trial on healthy volunteers to be found in medical literature (dose of 10 U):
humalog humulin-R
Duration of action (h) 3.5-4.75 5.0-7.5
Onset of action (h) 0.5-0.75 0.5-1.0
Time of maximum effect (h) 0.75-2.5 0.75-4.5
it is recommended that humalog is given within 15 minutes of a meal. also, humalog is known to have more affinity with IGF-1 receptor (which are for cell growth) than regular insulin. Although the difference is not really significant (1.5X), it may promote cell growth on a very long term use. But still, regular IGF-1 will have a binding affinity to its receptors 1000X better than humalog.
you also have Humalog Mix25, which action is similar to Humulin-N, but the really quick action of humalog is maintained.
I hope I may have helped some
like it has been said, Humulin and Humalog can be obtained OTC in Canada.
About Humulin: you have to be careful about which type you used:
Humulin-R, regular, rapidly acting insulin and short duration of activity (about 6-8 hours)
Humulin-N, NPH, intermediate acting insulin, slower onset of action than Regular, longer duration of activity (up to 24 hours)
Humulin-L, Lente, (insulin + zinc) intermediate acting insulin, slower onset of action than Regular, longer duration of activity (up to 24 hours)
Humulin-U, Ultralente, (insulin + zinc) long acting insulin with a slower onset of action than regular insulin and a longer duration of activity (at least 24 hours of more)
Humulin mixtures (10/90, 20/80, 30/70, 60/40, and 50/50) of Regular (R) and Isophane (N), intermediate acting, more rapid onset of action than NPH only, last up to 24 hours.
There are also mix of N, L, U and R, depending on your needs. Mixtures, N, L, U not to be used i.v. S.c. administration at upper arms, thighs, buttocks or abdomen, in rotation. but you know this stuff
here are some infos about humalog, as you know, it is quicker. some results of a trial on healthy volunteers to be found in medical literature (dose of 10 U):
humalog humulin-R
Duration of action (h) 3.5-4.75 5.0-7.5
Onset of action (h) 0.5-0.75 0.5-1.0
Time of maximum effect (h) 0.75-2.5 0.75-4.5
it is recommended that humalog is given within 15 minutes of a meal. also, humalog is known to have more affinity with IGF-1 receptor (which are for cell growth) than regular insulin. Although the difference is not really significant (1.5X), it may promote cell growth on a very long term use. But still, regular IGF-1 will have a binding affinity to its receptors 1000X better than humalog.
you also have Humalog Mix25, which action is similar to Humulin-N, but the really quick action of humalog is maintained.
I hope I may have helped some
According to this study, insulin would be a good inclusion post-cycle, if im reading it right:
Insulin enhancement of luteinizing hormone and follicle-stimulating hormone release by cultured pituitary cells.
Adashi EY, Hsueh AJ, Yen SS.
The role of insulin in the regulation of basal and gonadotropin-releasing hormone (GnRH)-stimulated release of LH and FSH was investigated in vitro using primary cultures of rat anterior pituitary cells from adult ovariectomized rats. Anterior pituitary cells were incubated for 2 days in the presence or absence of insulin in a serum-free medium. At the end of the insulin treatment, the cells were washed and reincubated in the presence or absence of GnRH, and the LH and FSH released into the medium were measured by RIA. Treatment with insulin (1.0 microgram/ml) for 2 days resulted in significant increases in both the basal and the maximal release of LH and FSH, as well as a 3.2- and 6.3-fold decrease in the ED50 values for GnRH in terms of LH and FSH release, respectively. Treatment with increasing concentrations (0.1-10,000 ng/ml) of insulin, led to a dose-dependent increase in the GnRH (3 X 10(-10) M)-stimulated release of both LH and FSH. This effect of insulin was significant (P less than 0.05) at a physiological concentration of 1 ng/ml (24 microU/ml) with an ED50 value of 40 ng/ml. Increasing duration of exposure to insulin resulted in time-dependent increases in the GnRH (3 X 10(-10) M)-stimulated release of LH, becoming significant at 24 h with maximal enhancement observed by 48 h. The effect of insulin was specific; epidermal or fibroblast growth factor did not enhance LH release. The augmenting effect of insulin was not associated with cellular proliferation or an overall change in protein or LH synthesis. Furthermore, the effect of insulin was independent of the ambient glucose concentration. Insulin was, however, without effect on gonadotrophs cultured in a serum-supplemented medium. Our findings suggest that the gonadotroph constitutes a target cell of insulin and that insulin may act directly on the anterior pituitary in the regulation of gonadotropin release.
PMID: 6781875 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Insulin enhancement of luteinizing hormone and follicle-stimulating hormone release by cultured pituitary cells.
Adashi EY, Hsueh AJ, Yen SS.
The role of insulin in the regulation of basal and gonadotropin-releasing hormone (GnRH)-stimulated release of LH and FSH was investigated in vitro using primary cultures of rat anterior pituitary cells from adult ovariectomized rats. Anterior pituitary cells were incubated for 2 days in the presence or absence of insulin in a serum-free medium. At the end of the insulin treatment, the cells were washed and reincubated in the presence or absence of GnRH, and the LH and FSH released into the medium were measured by RIA. Treatment with insulin (1.0 microgram/ml) for 2 days resulted in significant increases in both the basal and the maximal release of LH and FSH, as well as a 3.2- and 6.3-fold decrease in the ED50 values for GnRH in terms of LH and FSH release, respectively. Treatment with increasing concentrations (0.1-10,000 ng/ml) of insulin, led to a dose-dependent increase in the GnRH (3 X 10(-10) M)-stimulated release of both LH and FSH. This effect of insulin was significant (P less than 0.05) at a physiological concentration of 1 ng/ml (24 microU/ml) with an ED50 value of 40 ng/ml. Increasing duration of exposure to insulin resulted in time-dependent increases in the GnRH (3 X 10(-10) M)-stimulated release of LH, becoming significant at 24 h with maximal enhancement observed by 48 h. The effect of insulin was specific; epidermal or fibroblast growth factor did not enhance LH release. The augmenting effect of insulin was not associated with cellular proliferation or an overall change in protein or LH synthesis. Furthermore, the effect of insulin was independent of the ambient glucose concentration. Insulin was, however, without effect on gonadotrophs cultured in a serum-supplemented medium. Our findings suggest that the gonadotroph constitutes a target cell of insulin and that insulin may act directly on the anterior pituitary in the regulation of gonadotropin release.
PMID: 6781875 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
