Liver Protection

[Iceburg]

... let's look for a moment at antioxidant research (with which I am quite familiar; I just have a problem with a lot of what I call "cut and paste" posting, in which the data often is tangential to the discussion at hand; I prefer that the individual do his or her own research).
Antioxidants work in concert. Each one in turn accepts electrons from another in a type of chain reaction. Therefore, most mainstream research done w/ antioxidants is full of holes. One cannot simply test, say, beta carotene by itself, as was done in the Finnish cancer studies, and which is the typical placebo-controlled study model. To not include the other antioxidant substances creates an artificial environment, and the results will be skewed.
The same goes for liver protectants. Perhaps one increases intracellular glutathione levels, another inhibits the migration of glutathione out of the cell, yet another facilitates its entry, etc. If you just use one supplement in a study, or as the basis of an anecdote, what might your results be? Probably less than stellar.
This is the reason many mainstream medical "authorities" will claim lack of evidence that ascorbate, or E, or other vitamins/minerals, or "alternative" treatments, have effects that are popularly associated with them. The testing process itself is artificial and bears little resemblance to real life in the cells or in the organism.
Anyone who takes just one or two antioxidants is kidding themselves; the same goes for liver protectants. We must hit it from different angles and with different modes of action! It's simply foolish and dangerous not to, especially with the high safety profile of the supplements in question!

EXACTLY !

 

[hhajdo]

Evidence that milk thistle can protect from liver injury caused by 17alpha alkylated steroids.

It also decreased CYP3A4 which means that it may increase bioavailibility of some drugs...


Beneficial effects of silymarin on estrogen-induced cholestasis in the rat: a study in vivo and in isolated hepatocyte couplets.

Crocenzi FA, Sanchez Pozzi EJ, Pellegrino JM, Favre CO, Rodriguez Garay EA, Mottino AD, Coleman R, Roma MG.

Instituto de Fisiologia Experimental (IFISE)-Facultad de Ciencias Bioquimicas y Farmaceuticas (CONICET - U.N.R.), Rosario, Argentina.

The effect of silymarin (SIL) on 17alpha-ethynylestradiol (EE)-induced cholestasis was evaluated in rats. EE (5 mg/kg, subcutaneously, daily, for 5 days) decreased both the bile-salt-dependent and the bile-salt-independent fractions of the bile flow. The decrease in the former was associated to a reduction in the bile salt pool size (-58%), and this effect was completely prevented by SIL. This compound also counteracted the inhibitory effect induced by EE on HCO(3)(-) but not glutathione output, 2 major determinants of the bile-salt-independent bile flow. EE decreased the secretory rate maximum (SRM) of tauroursodeoxycholate, (-71%) and bromosulfophthalein (BSP; -60%), as well as the expression of the BSP canalicular carrier, mrp2; SIL failed to increase mrp2 expression, and had only a marginal beneficial effect on both tauroursodeoxycholate and BSP SRM values. However, the two-compartment model-based kinetic constant for BSP canalicular transfer was significantly improved by SIL (+262%). SIL decreased rather than increased CYP3A4, the cytochrome P450 isoenzyme involved in the oxidative metabolism of EE, and had no inhibitory effect on the UDP-glucuronosyltrasferase isoforms involved in the formation of its 17beta-glucuronidated, more cholestatic metabolite. Pretreatment of isolated rat hepatocyte couplets with silibinin, the major, active component of SIL, counteracted the estradiol 17beta-glucuronide-induced decrease in the percentage of couplets secreting apically the fluorescent bile acid analogue, cholyl-lysyl-fluorescein. These results show that SIL protects against EE-induced cholestasis by normalizing mainly the decrease in the bile salt pool size and HCO(3)(-) output, and probably by counteracting the cholestatic effect of its cholestatic, glucuronidated metabolite.

 

[eastarr69]

ok...while on this topic...i had my liver values checked last week since i am done w my cycle...my liver values were perfect...i ran milk thistyle the whole duration of my cycle....175 mg daily..also my cholesterol is hereditarilly high at 260, but it dropped 37 points while on...here is my cholesterol levels pre cycle and post cycle:

pre:
Ch: 297
LDL: 231
HDL:11
Tryglicerides:99

Post:
CH: 260
LDL:220
HDL:25
Tryglycerides:87

I know the cholesterol is high as well as the LDL, but my good chol came up and my fatt in the blood is vertually not there...i took my flaxseed oil at 1000mb tab a day...and not religiously either...so, i am going on the assumption that both of these work...

E

 

[ulter]

Milk Thistle has been used as a liver aid by body builders for many years. I personally don't know anyone who used it and sucessfully lowered their liver values with it. When I asked Dr Scruggs about it he told me it was ineffective according to the liver panels he saw of his patients who used it. Since he has the medical records of over 800 AS using patients I think he is a good source of anecdotal evidence. From what I have seen posted over the last few years I would say he's right.
I can post studies and literature reviews that conclude that in fact MT is not effective liver protection but I have already done that a dozen times in the last year.

BioDrugs 2001;15(7):465-89

Silymarin: a review of its clinical properties in the management of hepatic disorders.

Wellington K, Jarvis B.

Adis International Limited, Auckland, New Zealand.


Drugs 2001;61(14):2035-63

The use of silymarin in the treatment of liver diseases.

Saller R, Meier R, Brignoli R.

Abteilung Naturheilkunde, University Hospital Zurich, Switzerland.



I posted on another thread here what I consider to be the most compelling reason for someone to use Tyler Liver Detox. That being the posts about Tyler from the boards over the last 2 years. Like this one below. If you want to add MT to it great, it's already in the Tyler but if you think it will help to add more then by all means do it. But start with Tyler.

BOOGER T
AF Member posted 10-04-2002 12:02 PM

A WHILE BACK I POSTED THAT MY LIVER VALUES WERE UP. I ORDERED TYLERS LIVER DETOX. IN JUST 3 WEEKS I WENT BACK TO THE DOC JUST TO SEE IF IT WORKS. WELL IM CURRENTLY IN THE MIDDLE OF A SUSPENSION/ Winstrol (winny) CYCLE(WINNY AT 100MG ED).

WELL MY DOC TOLD ME THAT MY LIVER ENZYMES DROPPED BY 50%!!!AND IM IN THE MIDDLE OF TAKING A 17AA ORAL AT 100MG A DAY!

WELL MY LIVER THANKS YOU GUYS!

 

[hhajdo]

Yes, I've posted those reviews above.

They indicate that milk thistle may not be valuable as a treatment of preexisting liver disease, there's no info about its value as a liver protector from type of liver injury caused by 17AA steroids...

There's some evidence that liver damage can occur even when conventional biochemical liver tests show normal results.

I agree that tylers' is superior since it contains many valuable ingredients...

Also, ALA is better than MT in increasing liver glutathione, but not all AS deplete it...

 

[gsxr600]

I personally like Milk thistle.
of course i have an unbias view in all this

 

[Rj*]

I personally like Milk thistle.
of course i have an unbias view in all this

of course

 

[|D|R|S|]

Can someone post link's to where I can purchase ALA and Tyler's?
Thank's

 

[DEVILtrainer666]

anyone ever detoxify with GOLDEN SEAL ROOT for 2 weeks ? stuff always makes me feel great when ive been subjecting my body to massive abuse .
nothing to me like a good break from the abusing substances and 2 weeks of double strenth golden seal , cranberry & water , water , water .

 

[ulter]

Can someone post link's to where I can purchase ALA and Tyler's?
Thank's

www.anabolicfitness.net/shop

 

[luciasbrown]

Milk Thistle is good stuff and we may split hairs on the mechanisms, Lots of studies from Europe where it is used in conventional therapy by physicians. Medications are never 100% effective in everyone. Ive also heard good stuff about Tylers.

 

[rEHB]

there is no liver protectant that works, plain and simple. r-ala and sam-e are exeptions though they don't do much...

 

[Ozzy27]

I use Vitamin world's Milk Thistle which is 1000mg's per capsule. Alot of MT that I have seen is only 300-400mg

And Tyler's is sold at anabolicfitness

 

[Ozzy27]

www.anabolicfitness.net/shop

It doesn't work.

 

[SomeBloke]

hi. pharmacist. liver protection is a myth in this context. sorry to rain on anyones parade. only thing you can do is not OD, not overload it, not take any drugs to stress it, keep hydrated, well fed, and to look after your other organs, especially kidneys. cheers.

hate misinformation like this. total money wasting bullshit. throw that shit in the bin right now.

 

[Ozzy27]

Yo SB , I totally disagree 100%
Show me your proof on this. Please back-up your statement.

 

[Mudge]

It doesn't work.

Add another / or just go to the main site and click on the link in the left NAV bar.

www.anabolicfitness.net/shop/

 

[Mudge]

http://www.wholehealthmd.com/news/viewarticle/1,1513,20,00.html

Moderation is key
But remember, the consequences of excessive drinking are serious. Dr. James Robbers, Dr. Tyler's coauthor on many books and a professor emeritus of pharmacognosy at Purdue as well, believes that milk thistle is best reserved as long-term therapy for heavy drinkers with liver damage, rather than as a short-term prophylactic for binge drinkers. The key to a healthy holiday season is moderation.

Suggested Dose
Take 250 mg of standardized extract three times a day between meals. Look for products that contain 70 to 80% silymarin, the active ingredient.

This would seem to imply it will not greatly affect liver values over the short term, which is how people seem to expect it to work.

 

[Gtrack]

I use L-methionine caps.2X500mg twice each day.
Strange nobody ever mentions methionine.
Good for both the liver and kidneys.

 

[Vitor Ennnergy]

When i was on anadrol i felt a big improvement of that sick feeling when i started silimarin.