Liver Protection

[gator_mclusky]

Never used any and liver values have always been normal. Cycles have been anywhere from 8 wks- 4 months. Moderate doses.( Stayed away from most orals though.)

Cheap liver protection is GLA(Gamma Linoleic Acid) found in Eveniing Primrose oil.

Gator

 

[Gtrack]

"We found no reduction in mortality, in improvements in histology at liver biopsy, or in biochemical markers of liver function among patients with chronic liver disease."


I don't think this is excactly what we're talking about.
Drug users are not the typical chronic liver disease patients which could have this by hepatitis,infections ,chronic alcohol use etc.

Milk thistle use is taking place most of the times at the same time with the stressor (steroids) and hopefully not after the problem is so severe as to lead to chronic liver disease.

Preventative measures is not the same as curing agents.


Now if we talked about some group that did not drink like an alcoholic but for specific periods of time and at the same time also took milk thistle ,this would be a much more suitable study and results.

 

[durabol]

What you're saying is that there are no primary prevention studies, but rather only secondary prevention. And I agree, that type of study would be more generalizable to steroid users. But the point is that there is none out there, and this is the best evidence we have, so until you can find some studies proving your point then I'll stick with what I know.

By the way, how do you know that chronic alcohol use is more harmful to your liver than chronic oral steroid use? You make it sound like its 'OK' if its steroids as opposed to alcohol.
Why not start with that question. Find me some evidence on that alone, and I'll tell you if what you found is even worth mentioning.

"We found no reduction in mortality, in improvements in histology at liver biopsy, or in biochemical markers of liver function among patients with chronic liver disease."


I don't think this is excactly what we're talking about.
Drug users are not the typical chronic liver disease patients which could have this by hepatitis,infections ,chronic alcohol use etc.

Milk thistle use is taking place most of the times at the same time with the stressor (steroids) and hopefully not after the problem is so severe as to lead to chronic liver disease.

Preventative measures is not the same as curing agents.


Now if we talked about some group that did not drink like an alcoholic but for specific periods of time and at the same time also took milk thistle ,this would be a much more suitable study and results.

 

[purplerain]

i use nac which when ingested produces an antioxidant called glutathione which helps the liver remove drugs and pollutants from the liver it also bust your lungs open (gets rid of excess mucous) helps you breath a little bit better

 

[Gtrack]

What you're saying is that there are no primary prevention studies, but rather only secondary prevention. And I agree, that type of study would be more generalizable to steroid users. But the point is that there is none out there, and this is the best evidence we have, so until you can find some studies proving your point then I'll stick with what I know.

By the way, how do you know that chronic alcohol use is more harmful to your liver than chronic oral steroid use? You make it sound like its 'OK' if its steroids as opposed to alcohol.
Why not start with that question. Find me some evidence on that alone, and I'll tell you if what you found is even worth mentioning.

What i'm saying is that you showed a paper that had to do with milk thistle's effectiveness as a cure and not as a preventative measure.
And to already liver patients and not to healthy people while undergoing liver stress.
2 major differences.

Nowhere did i mention steroid use is ok and alcohol use is more harmful.Steroid use could be worse for all i know.

But until you can find a study showing milk thistle is useless as a preventing cure at the time of the stressor (as most steroid users use it) then this particular study is irrelevant to us.
It could be useful to someone that has a stressed liver after years of steroid use and wants to see if milk thistle would be effective for him.

Now,milk thistle is not an unknown substance.It's not only a food supplement where you can produce and market the product and make money (like some of the other liver meds).
It IS for many years a drug and many physicians have clinical experience with it and many studies have shown its effectiveness.Legalon is for many years a drug widely used.

As for the evidence you need ,i don't have it but neither do you.
I trust much more most people in here that take it and prefer it to all other liver meds,the doctors using it and my own personal experience with it showing its effectiveness in reducing liver enzymes more than all the rest substances in this poll as seen in my own blood tests which is more than enough for me.

 

[durabol]

What i'm saying is that you showed a paper that had to do with milk thistle's effectiveness as a cure and not as a preventative measure.
And to already liver patients and not to healthy people while undergoing liver stress.
2 major differences.

Nowhere did i mention steroid use is ok and alcohol use is more harmful.Steroid use could be worse for all i know.

But until you can find a study showing milk thistle is useless as a preventing cure at the time of the stressor (as most steroid users use it) then this particular study is irrelevant to us.
It could be useful to someone that has a stressed liver after years of steroid use and wants to see if milk thistle would be effective for him.

Now,milk thistle is not an unknown substance.It's not only a food supplement where you can produce and market the product and make money (like some of the other liver meds).
It IS for many years a drug and many physicians have clinical experience with it and many studies have shown its effectiveness.Legalon is for many years a drug widely used.

As for the evidence you need ,i don't have it but neither do you.
I trust much more most people in here that take it and prefer it to all other liver meds,the doctors using it and my own personal experience with it showing its effectiveness in reducing liver enzymes more than all the rest substances in this poll as seen in my own blood tests which is more than enough for me.

First of all, I dont have any evidence either b/c THERE IS NONE......DUHHH...which is precisely my point.
Secondly, NO, there are not any "good" studies (as you claim) that show it is of benfit WRT lowering LFT's, in healthy pts (primary prevention) or pts with liver disease (secondary prevention).
Thirdly, just b/c physicians prescribe it does not mean that it works. There are lots of medications that physicians prescribe with absolutely no evidence to back up their "clinical decisions".
Fourth, as you said, "it could be useful to someone.........blah, blah, blah". Again, that is the point, we do not have any evidence for this.
Fifth, I'm not saying don't use it b/c it "absolutely doesn't work". It may have some benefit, we don't know for sure. I am simply not advocating its use because there is no evidence showing it is beneficial.
Sixth, dont talk to me as if I dont know the difference between 'prevention' and 'cure', or that I dont understand the extent of external validity of study, or "talk down" to me when it comes to drugs.......because you have no idea what I do for a living.

 

[Gtrack]

First ,if your living has to do with drugs or you are a physician then you probably would have known to use the words cure and prevention and not "primary and secondary " prevention.
Second you would have distinguished the difference between a liver being stressed and a damaged liver.
Third,you would have seen the studies you mention are irrelevant to most steroid users.
Fourth you would have provided some better alternatives that would in your opinion or experience provide better results.

Fifth you would have seen i did not talk down to you and just stated my opinion ,just contradicting your absolut opinions of "There's all the proof you need that it doesnt work. You can search all you want, you wont find better evidence" that in your last post have been paraphrased to "I'm not saying don't use it b/c it "absolutely doesn't work". It may have some benefit, we don't know for sure."

And sixth you probably wouldn't jump into conclusions as to what everyone else's job might be or what everyone else's assumptions about your job might be.

 

[durabol]

Primary prevention has to do with "preventing progression to a damaged liver (which is what we want as BBers....ahem, a stressed liver) in an otherwise healthy patient". Secondary prevention is "preventing further damage to an already damaged liver" (ahem, damaged liver.....whether from alcohol or steroids, the end result of liver damage is essentially the same). Both of these terms are more appropriate in this case than 'prevention' or 'cure'. Also note that the study I referenced said nothing about "CURE"!
Also, NO, the studies I've mentioned are not irrelevant to steroid users. I'm sure some steroid users have 'damaged' livers, and the results of this study would have some generalizability to these people.
As far as alternatives, I will agree with you, I should have stated some, but I honestly do not know of any that have any degree of proven benefit.
And WRT the 2 different posts, in which you claim I have said 2 different things, note that NOWHERE in the first post did I say NOT TO USE IT!
I dont make assumptions about the level of knowledge of people, but I know a hell of a lot of people who do.

 

[Rolmack]

ok I see plenty of answer here that's cool but what are the dosage you take guys ? for all those stuff liv 52, milk thistle, ala ect...

I need to know this also so I know how much to order

 

[Gtrack]

Durabol,here is an abstract showing hepatoprotective effectiveness of silymarin (MT) in dianabol treated rats.






[Hepatoprotective effects of silymarin in androgenic-anabolic steroid-induced liver damage]

[Article in Serbian]

Radovanovic D, Jovanovic D, Mihailovic D, Rankovic G, Stojiljkovic N, Dimitrov V.

INTRODUCTION: The use and abuse of anabolic-androgenic steroids (AAS) commonly induces liver damage. MATERIAL AND METHODS: The study included 40 male Wistar rats, divided into 4 groups of 10 rats each. Animals in the first experimental group (M), were subjected to progressive systematic forced swimming test, 5 days a week, during 8 weeks. Animals in this group were treated with Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) methandienone, 2 mg/kg BW/day, per os, before swimming, 5 d/w for 8 weeks. After swimming, animals were given three times more food than the laboratory animals of the same age and kind. Animals in the second group (M+S), were subjected to progressive forced swimming test, 5 d/w 8 weeks. Animals in this group were treated with methandienone equally as the experimental group M and received the same amount of food. Apart from that, they received silymarin 20 mg/kg BW/day. Animals in the third group (K), represented the control group, which was neither subjected to swimming test, nor treated with methandienone or silymarin. Animals in this group received the same amount of food as animals in groups M and M+S. Animals in the fourth group (C), also represented a control. This group was not exercised nor treated, and animals received a standard amount of food for laboratory animals of this kind and age. Quantitative analysis of obtained hemataxylin-eosin, periodic acid shift and enzymohistochemical preparations was processed using Digital Image Analysis System: Microimage 3.0. RESULTS: It was established that processes in the nuclei of animals in groups M and K were significantly more intensive (p<0.001) in relation to groups M+S and C. The investigation of glycogen showed significantly higher density in the cells of groups M and M+S in comparison to groups K and C. Also, there was a significant difference between groups M+S and M. Density of enzyme activity of glutamate dehydrogenase in hepatocytes of animals in the group M+S was significantly higher in relation to the remaining three groups. A statistically significant difference was not found in enzyme activity of succinate dehydrogenase and lactate dehydrogenase. DISCUSSION: In cell nuclei of animals in the experimental group M, in the absence of silymarin effect, methandienone causes damages which induce regenerative processes and in this way increase high intensity activity. Silymarin significantly increases the glycogen density in hepatocytes. Increased activities of GDH are attributed to cell vitality. CONCLUSION: The present results show hepatoprotective effects of silymarin in androgenic-anabolic steroid induced liver damage.

 

[Trammelly]

Essentiale Forte

 

[Rolmack]

where can i get some ALA i just ordered some LIV 52

what does ALA stand for?

 

[Slick Arrado]

I've taken the Hepadetox pills from Superior Nutraceuticals before and I'd do it again. Sup1, where have you been?

 

[Furian]

I am guilty of skimming, so sorry if this was answered.

Has anyone used Pro-Liver from Primaforce? I have contacts with marc of primaforce since he started and now that I plan to run a cycle I picked some of his product up. Just wondering if any of you fine folks here have used this in your cycles for liver prot.

Basically Pro Liver is the standard 80% Silymarin but they added N-Acetyl-Cysteine to the mix.

Supplement Facts
Serving Size: 3 Capsules
Servings Per Container: 30
Amount Per Serving
N-Acetyl-Cysteine 1000 MG†
Milk Thistle 600 MG†
(80% standardized provides 480 mg Silymarin)

Is anyone familiar with the effect of adding N-Acetyl-Cysteine. Yes, I can and have googled N-Acetyl-Cysteine, but I am looking for opinions no so much articles.

I also bought regular Milk Thistle as well. In your opinions would using both products be overkill? I always believed that when protecting your liver there's no such thing as overkill...but I am sure there becomes a point where it can be too much.

 

[crazykris6]

ala

 

[bmass]

Where do you have MEPASIL? Its the ultimate liver protection.
Its manufactored in sweden by astra Zeneca and is for pepole with very serious liver problems like hepatitis-B and A.

you are wrong Mepasil is Milk thistle i live in Sweden and im a med student and i also had hepatitis B in the past and mepasil is not used to treat hepatitis i asked my doctor just 2 days ago about Milk thistle and he said that there are no evidence that milk thistle helps so and where did you hear that astra zeneca makes Mepasil? mepasil is not a real drug its what we call in sweden(naturläkemedel) i know a guy in sweden that sell Mepasil and its made in Egypt and it contains silymarinum aka Milk Thistle i´ve used it myselfe once.

 

[GPAS]

I can almost swear by my use of milk thistle, because I can feel an affect when I forget it, and an almost immediate affect once I take it, during a dbol cycle. My digestion is not normal and I am tempted to reach for Rolaids, until I realize that I forgot the Silmarin. Within minutes, I am back to normal.
II don't intend to use that as a testimony of its affect on my liver values, but they were fine during my last blood workup.
I have NAC, but I have not used it.

 

[putin]

Lecithin, which then converts to other 3 things.

 

[E-Swift25]

I've had regular check ups and my values were never elevated. I've used orals at moderate doses up to 8 weeks. I have another check up next week. If everythings ok. I'll start using orals again in a month or so. I was just on superdrol for a month, then two weeks of dbol (trying to get rid of the last of it.)

 

[Dlove]

Wow you guy's are getting scientific. So what's the bottom line. Say for me what would you do, my next cycle is test enanthatate 750mg's weekly for 12 week's.
I was planning on just taking milk thistle and sawpalmetto for pancreas protection?