MindOverMuscle
New member
Great discussion, and incredibly polite disagreements without insults. Props to everybody who contributed. I feel more enlightened having read this thread.
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Long term damage
- Thread starter Jimmykick
- Start date
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Thoms
Guest
Nope. You are generalizing my statement. Excercise is good for your health. I claim TOO MUCH excercise is bad. There is a point where it no longer is beneficial and becomes counterproductive for longevity. People who are at their natural max and beyond with the help of Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) have crossed that point.
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Thoms
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The study made the clear destinction between people with high BMI and obese people with high BMI. They both ended up the same. But the 500000 people had only a small% of BB, I can give you credit for that. But still, they ended up in that group. You know full well there hasn't been a study that focusses specifically on that.
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Thoms
Guest
I'd like to talk about myself as an example. My genotype (what I am genetically supposed to look like) is a man of 70kg. After years of training and dedication, my phenotype (what I actually looked like due to life factors) was 113kg. That means I am not a natural heavyweight, and by that I mean I wasn't born to be that weight. The 113kg was basically a clean, fat-free muscle weight. But still I had problems to compose myself: I was quickly out of breath, I couldn't run 100m anymore, etc. By no means did I consider myself healthy. Over the years I dropped down to 90kg and it made a big difference.
Jimmykick
Lift, eat, sleep and grow
MindOverMuscle said:
I'll second that. It's nice to debate without tearing each other down. Most of you have very interesting and logical views. Again, we can all speculate with good reasoning skills but the truth is that we need more human testing. If Steroids are supposed to be so bad for us according to many in the medical community, then why are there so many using them? Worth a study or two I'd say.
Jimmykick
Lift, eat, sleep and grow
Ponderosa said:
LMFAO
I love that show. Here is a Christopher soudbyte
http://www.sopranoland.com/episodes/ep02/audio/2-cm-positivevisualization.wav
Sorry to get off subject. I'm hijacking my own thread!
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Thoms
Guest
70 kg = 154lbs
113kg = 250lbs
90kg = 200lbs
Thoms said:
Well, I don't KNOW that there hasn't been such a study, but you're probably right. My point is that we cannot conclude from the study you cited that gaining muscular weight is likely to shorten our lives. The study did not make a key distinction (and one that is crucial for this discussion) - it did not distinguish between lean individuals with high BMI and "unlean" individuals with high BMI.
It is pretty well established that BMI is an oversimplified index. It is useful to some extent for untrained individuals. However, it really is useless with regard to bodybuilders. Body composition is more important. If I go to a Doctor and he tells me that I'd better lose some weight because my BMI is high and that puts me at a high risk for heart attack, stroke, etc., I'm probably going to point out that I'm pretty lean, I exercise and watch what I eat, my cholesterol and BP are in good shape, etc. If that doesn't change his tune, then he's useless and I'm looking for another doctor. Do you disagree?
Thoms said:
I'm pretty similar. The heaviest I have been is 220 lbs. I've settled at about 200 lbs. I have more endurance and am more fit to work as a fireman at 200 lbs. However, I don't know that I'm more healthy at 200 lbs. and I daresay nobody can say that my life will be longer because I weigh 200 rather than 220.
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Thoms
Guest
Totally agree, off course. BMI is a crude and oversimplified tool, and it alone is a useless standard. We both know better than that.
It did.
...When the analysis was restricted to healthy people who had never smoked, the risk of death was associated with both overweight and obesity among men and women...
But I agree the results are still open for some interpretation.
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Thoms
Guest
I don't follow you there. If I would train 10 hours/day, 7/7, my body would wear out after a month. There is a point where it is no longer beneficial for sure. I feel the culminated 1h/day 6days/week standard BB regimen will take you just beyond that point. But that's opinion, I can't prove that. The difference in lifetime would be too small.
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Thoms
Guest
Trevdog said:
I'm glad to see you could get away with the extra weight, but I couldn't. At that time, my BP and heartrate went up. I also had an uncomfortable awareness of my own heartbeat. In the gym, I couldn't do as many reps as I used to, because I tired out quicker, but I could lift a lot more weight. I had to cut down workout sessions from 1h to 45min. For the record, I was still natural at the time.
EDIT: I also had the occasional cramp in my heart. That's what finally prompted me to lose some weight. I can't definitively link that to the weight, but I'm convinced it was a factor. When I dropped te weight, the cramps stopped. Now I'm 4 years later and still around 90kg, and they have started coming back. So either I fucked myself up by getting so heavy, or it is genetic, which is possible since my father and grandfather experienced the same at my age. I believe it's a combination.
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Thoms
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I'd like to comment some more on what that was like: When I went to sleep, I couldn't put my ear on my pillow. I had to put my pillow just under the top of my head. If I pressed the pillow against my ear, I would distinctively hear my own heartbeat, which would then become irregular, sometimes stopping, sometimes beating too hard. I could only hold it out for a minute or two. Back then I didn't do drugs, Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) or smoked. After losing the weight that went away, but sadly, after 4 years, it's back now. It's how I am going to sleep tonight. I always wondered if it would have happened if I never had picked up a weight.
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Thoms
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Tried a host of betablockers and benzo's, other stuff as well, all to no avail. Doctors can't find the exact cause, they just try to fight the symptoms, with little success. My heart itself is in excellent condition, as are all other organs. Been to the hospital twice when it got out of control, as well as cardiac specialists. Doctor there said 'you're still young and in good condition. Try to live long.'
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Thoms
Guest
At one point I was taking lorazepam, a valium-like substance. In the beginning it worked. It had some side-effects, heh. I recently moved and was looking for a new regular pub to go to. The first time I went there, I ordered a pizza (they didn't have food there but it was okay to order some), and fell asleep halfway on the table. Everybody took me for a drunk, until people learned of my condition. Later they made fun of me because of my memory lapses I had as a side effect: at one point they fooled me into thinking I was there the other day and took my pants off in public. Everybody there confirmed that story, and it took days for them to tell me it was just a joke. bastards 
I went with my new G/F to the beach 3 times, and 3 times I fell asleep on the beach. My GF was first annoyed with it, one time she got worried because she couldn't wake me up anymore. She slapped me in the face repeatedly, I didn't come out of it. Eventually she drove me home and put me into bed; I woke up the next day.
In the end, I got hallucinations, waking up in the middle of the night and seeing ghosts. Sometimes I would wake up and have complete body paralysis for minutes. At that point I stopped taking it. When the health issues came back I started taking it again, but strangely it didn't have any effect any more, good or bad.
I went with my new G/F to the beach 3 times, and 3 times I fell asleep on the beach. My GF was first annoyed with it, one time she got worried because she couldn't wake me up anymore. She slapped me in the face repeatedly, I didn't come out of it. Eventually she drove me home and put me into bed; I woke up the next day.
In the end, I got hallucinations, waking up in the middle of the night and seeing ghosts. Sometimes I would wake up and have complete body paralysis for minutes. At that point I stopped taking it. When the health issues came back I started taking it again, but strangely it didn't have any effect any more, good or bad.
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Thoms
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I have my own theory how it got that way: carrying too much mass, burn-out from overtraining and genetic predisposition. Every exam I go to I get a perfect bill of health - but I am not.
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Thoms
Guest
And here's the strange part: at that time, I bought my first cycle. On my bloodwork I could see I also had low test, and I was also getting under my 90kg. I told myself that if I could make it through 1 day without having health issues, I would take them. I had my cycle for over 3 months, waiting on a daily basis, until that happened and I took my first shot. Through circumstances I couldn't train much and eat properly, and my weight remained around 90kg - but now get this - I actually felt BETTER while on. No more heart problems. They did come back after the cycle. It was very weird, and I can't fully explain it. Months later I did a second cycle, remaining at about the same weight - perhaps up to 95 kg - same positive results. Short-term, they worked where nothing else did.
