Looking for participants - AAS Study

[chankle]

Hey guys. Thanks for the patience. I've finished the rough draft for the fertility manuscript and attached below. I left the institution and author's names off until all have reviewed and it's ready for submission. I wanted to update the forum and show this was a legitimate study made possible by your willingness to participate. For that I thank you. Couple caveats to the paper

1. I'm limited to 2500-3000 words depending on the journal submission so I had to keep things somewhat short

2. This paper focuses only on fertility and sexual function. Multiple other papers will come from the data, but this is the first

3. The study is retrospective and based on a survey. Thus, nothing will be truly groundbreaking and much of the paper will likely seem like commonsense to you guys. That said, there's minimal reports in the literature and even though this data is somewhat intuitive it fills a void in the current literature

4. I did my best to stay neutral and avoid propaganda often associated with AAS. That said, the practice is not completely benign and there are known health risks associated with it.

5. Forums and participants were kept anonymous.

6. I thought the fertility rates were encouraging and unexpectedly high. Also, the use of PDEI and sexual enhancement meds was much higher than previously described cohorts. Again interesting, but somewhat concerning when the purity of these drugs is questioned in the literature.

7. I'm open for any constructive criticism

8. Thanks again for your participation

 

[3J]

good stuff man... got a chance to read it!

 

[chankle]

good stuff man... got a chance to read it!

Thanks man!

 

[inhaus]

Took the survey. For those on the fence, there are no incriminating bits of info involved and it does not ask for your name, email, etc.

right, just your IP address which is how FBI flags you and can then literally look at every single thing you've ever done on any device that has used that IP address... pretty kewl huh? I actually learned this the other day when a confirmed FBI investigator confirmed that this is how they start observing people.

Not saying this ^ is that sort of thing, just saying that they CAN flag you for simply clicking on something on their red list and then at the click of a button see anything you've ever done for years back regardless of knowing your name etc...

 

[Mrrippedzilla]

Awesome

Its good to see any further studies on this subject (even if it is only a retrospective survey) because, overall, the current level of data is woefully poor.
The fertility rate confirms other data I've seen on the subject - it doesn't seem to be an issue even with long term AAS use.

I'd like to see some sort of follow up data on HPTA recovery after AAS use.
The overall consensus within the scientific community still seems to be that recovery always happens even it may be delayed - this goes against a lot of the anecdotal data on this board & the bloodwork I've seen.
Most studies don't take AAS-induced hypogonadism seriously and the more data we get on the subject, the better.

 

[Megatron28]

Chankle: Thank for sharing that with us. I was wondering. why Cabergoline is referred to as a Sexual Performance Enhancing Drug. That is not the primary reason that Caber is being used while guys are on AAS - although it does help prevent sexual dysfunction in certain cases.

 

[chankle]

Awesome

Its good to see any further studies on this subject (even if it is only a retrospective survey) because, overall, the current level of data is woefully poor.
The fertility rate confirms other data I've seen on the subject - it doesn't seem to be an issue even with long term AAS use.

I'd like to see some sort of follow up data on HPTA recovery after AAS use.
The overall consensus within the scientific community still seems to be that recovery always happens even it may be delayed - this goes against a lot of the anecdotal data on this board & the bloodwork I've seen.
Most studies don't take AAS-induced hypogonadism seriously and the more data we get on the subject, the better.

I did a pretty extensive literature review on recovery of HPTA and spermatogenesis following large doses of AAS. Spermatogenesis to non-oligospermic (>20 million) levels occurs in 100% of patients and seems to be independent of dose and duration of steroid use. Average time to recovery is 3-12 months depending on the paper you reference. Those who don't recover normal sperm counts likely had an undiagnosed fertility problem to begin with. The axis can be augmented for faster recovery with HCG (although produces more abnormal sperm forms), HMG, and SERMS. Low level spermatogenesis appears to be maintained in those using AAS and HCG simultaneously and even in those not using HCG roughly 30% will not become azospermic.

Testosterone levels don't seem to recover as fast following cessation of AAS and the recovery isn't as complete. Ie. some previous users will fall into a chronic hypogonadic state termed anabolic steroid induced hypogonadism (ASIH).

 

[chankle]

Dopaminergics can be used for sexual enhancement due to there effects on prolactin. Following orgasm there's a prolactin surge which partly accounts for the refractory period. When given in a controlled setting (please see references listed in the paper for complete details) cabergoline improves all areas of sexual function including desire, erectile function, perceived satisfaction, and also shortens the refractory period. It also seems to be able to salvage sexual function in those not responding to PDEI. The 2 prolactin papers I mention in the manuscript are rather interesting reads.

Would you say people are using it more as a partitioning agent, prolactin suppression while using tren and deca, or sexual enhancement? Or perhaps I'm missing another reason the community uses it?

Thanks for your comments.

 

[chankle]

right, just your IP address which is how FBI flags you and can then literally look at every single thing you've ever done on any device that has used that IP address... pretty kewl huh? I actually learned this the other day when a confirmed FBI investigator confirmed that this is how they start observing people.

Not saying this ^ is that sort of thing, just saying that they CAN flag you for simply clicking on something on their red list and then at the click of a button see anything you've ever done for years back regardless of knowing your name etc...

I can reassure everyone that no IPs or anything else were logged during this study. I also made sure that the other authors and primary investigator were not aware of the websites participating in the study.

 

[Megatron28]

Anti-dopaminergics can be used for sexual enhancement due to there effects on prolactin. Following orgasm there's a prolactin surge which partly accounts for the refractory period. When given in a controlled setting (please see references listed in the paper for complete details) cabergoline improves all areas of sexual function including desire, erectile function, perceived satisfaction, and also shortens the refractory period. It also seems to be able to salvage sexual function in those not responding to PDEI. The 2 prolactin papers I mention in the manuscript are rather interesting reads.

Would you say people are using it more as a partitioning agent, prolactin suppression while using tren and deca, or sexual enhancement? Or perhaps I'm missing another reason the community uses it?

Thanks for your comments.

I understand that Caber can have sexual enhancing effects -- namely refractory period or ED in men with a pre-existing condition. But when it comes to AAS, most men are taking it to suppress prolactin when running 19-nors. Lactation, gyno and ED are not desirable symptoms. Perhaps you have heard the term "Deca Dick" which is a misnomer as we know it is really due to high estrogen typically, but nevertheless the term exists.

Some use DA's for their appetite suppressing effects when running a "cutting" cycle as well, but this is much less common in my estimation.

Also, a lot of guys use Pramipexole for their DA as it is more readily available. Research Chemical companies sell it in liquid form whereas Cabergoline is said to be unstable in liquid form so it is not sold by them. And Prami has been shown to have positive effects on GH. But it has the downside of nausea.

 

[Mrrippedzilla]

I did a pretty extensive literature review on recovery of HPTA and spermatogenesis following large doses of AAS. Spermatogenesis to non-oligospermic (>20 million) levels occurs in 100% of patients and seems to be independent of dose and duration of steroid use. Average time to recovery is 3-12 months depending on the paper you reference. Those who don't recover normal sperm counts likely had an undiagnosed fertility problem to begin with. The axis can be augmented for faster recovery with HCG (although produces more abnormal sperm forms), HMG, and SERMS. Low level spermatogenesis appears to be maintained in those using AAS and HCG simultaneously and even in those not using HCG roughly 30% will not become azospermic.

Testosterone levels don't seem to recover as fast following cessation of AAS and the recovery isn't as complete. Ie. some previous users will fall into a chronic hypogonadic state termed anabolic steroid induced hypogonadism (ASIH).

I agree with everything you stated and hope that the scientific community look into exactly WHY test levels don't recover and ASIH ensues - I've seen some hypotheses regarding the matter but nothing more.

I like you chankle, you should stick around

 

[Megatron28]

Please stick around Chankle. I think we can all learn a lot from you and I think we can provide you with additional insight and access into the world of AAS. We try to keep the bro-science out here and elevate the discussion.

 

[cybrsage]

Yes, please stay around. Less Bro and more Science!

 

[chankle]

I understand that Caber can have sexual enhancing effects -- namely refractory period or ED in men with a pre-existing condition. But when it comes to AAS, most men are taking it to suppress prolactin when running 19-nors. Lactation, gyno and ED are not desirable symptoms. Perhaps you have heard the term "Deca Dick" which is a misnomer as we know it is really due to high estrogen typically, but nevertheless the term exists.

Some use DA's for their appetite suppressing effects when running a "cutting" cycle as well, but this is much less common in my estimation.

Also, a lot of guys use Pramipexole for their DA as it is more readily available. Research Chemical companies sell it in liquid form whereas Cabergoline is said to be unstable in liquid form so it is not sold by them. And Prami has been shown to have positive effects on GH. But it has the downside of nausea.

Thanks for updating me on the various uses of dopaminergics. I was previously aware of the partitioning/dieting aspect of the drugs and have read Lyle McDonald's Bromocriptine book which is a rather extensive review of their role in dieting. Great book. I wasn't very familiar with using it with AAS to blunt prolactin release. It's more of an issue with 19-nor derivatives then tren? The D3 agonism of pramipexole is a bit concerning compared to primarily D2 agonism of bromocriptine and cabergoline. Thanks for the info!

 

[chankle]

I agree with everything you stated and hope that the scientific community look into exactly WHY test levels don't recover and ASIH ensues - I've seen some hypotheses regarding the matter but nothing more.

I like you chankle, you should stick around

Let me do some looking. Most of my research was focused on spermatogenesis, but I happened across the ASIH papers as well. I saved them, but didn't dive too deep into them yet. I'd have to look if it's primary testicle failure (something happening at the leydig cell level) or upstream in the pituitary/hypothalamus.

 

[chankle]

Please stick around Chankle. I think we can all learn a lot from you and I think we can provide you with additional insight and access into the world of AAS. We try to keep the bro-science out here and elevate the discussion.

Thanks for the kind words. Will certainly be around a bit. One of my primary interests outside of urologic surgery is HRT and fertility maintenance while on HRT. I'm hoping to make it part of my practice in the future, as I think it can be improved from what patients are currently receiving.

Edit: And I apologize, I realized I wrote anti-dopaminergic in the paper when I meant dopaminergic. Thus, the rough draft. Correction has been made.

 

[Megatron28]

Thanks for updating me on the various uses of dopaminergics. I was previously aware of the partitioning/dieting aspect of the drugs and have read Lyle McDonald's Bromocriptine book which is a rather extensive review of their role in dieting. Great book. I wasn't very familiar with using it with AAS to blunt prolactin release. It's more of an issue with 19-nor derivatives then tren? The D3 agonism of pramipexole is a bit concerning compared to primarily D2 agonism of bromocriptine and cabergoline. Thanks for the info!

Tren is a 19-nor. So guys running Trenbolone or Nandrolone will often use a DA on their cycle or have one on hand if prolactin starts increasing. It is often believed that keeping estradiol in range will prevent prolactin from becoming an issue so a DA is not always run on cycle - just kept available should it be needed.

Lots of us are big Lyle McDonald fans here!

Also, I am not sure if the nutrient partitioning effects of a DA are applicable when using AAS as they themselves greatly improve nutrient partitioning. I would be curious to hear what Zilla has to say on the subject.

 

[chankle]

Tren is a 19-nor. So guys running Trenbolone or Nandrolone will often use a DA on their cycle or have one on hand if prolactin starts increasing. It is often believed that keeping estradiol in range will prevent prolactin from becoming an issue so a DA is not always run on cycle - just kept available should it be needed.

Lots of us are big Lyle McDonald fans here!

Ha.. forgive my ignorance. Thanks for clarifying.

 

[mich29]

Reading this was been.refreshing please keep up these studies and posts

 

[chankle]

Reading this was been.refreshing please keep up these studies and posts

Thank you. I will post any further studies stemming from the original database.