Low dose cycles--Truth and myth.

they got something out of it-with the 600mg users they gained 17lbs of lean mass. and they had no side effects so it didnt even really effect their health. even cholesterol had no noticeable change worth recording in the 600mg group.

your not going to find any studies on males lifting weights while on cycle, its illegal.

there are plenty of studies out there with anavar and deca on HIV patients that have no sides and increase lean mass. studies were done of doses up to 600mg of deca.


There's no way anybody gained 17lbs of LEAN mass while not working out.

I think that study said, "those that didn't exercise gained 5lbs of lean mass".

Edit: Damn, I guess it says they didn't undergo any strength training.

Weird, why the fuck am I not putting on nearly as much mass!!!
 
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The proof is in the pudding.........

The following text outlines the benefits and risks of Testosterone administration based on a clinical human trial of 61 healthy men in 2001. The purpose of the trial was to determine the dose dependency of testosterone’s effects on fat-free mass and muscle performance. In this trial 61 men, 18-35years old were randomized into 5 groups receiving weekly injections of 25, 50, 125, 300, 600 mg of Testosterone Enanthate for 20 weeks. They had previous weight-lifting experience and normal T levels. Their nutritional intake was standardized and they did not undertake any strength training during the trial. The only two groups that reported significant muscle building benefits were the 300 and 600 mg groups so any dose lower than 300mg will not be considered in this essay. 12 men participated in the 300 mg group and 13 men in the 600 mg group.
600mg of Testosterone a week for 20 weeks resulted in the following benefits. Increased fat free mass, muscle strength, muscle power, muscle volume, hemoglobin and IGF-1.
The same 600 mg administration resulted in 2 side effects. HDL cholesterol was negatively correlated and 2 men developed acne.
The normal range for total T in men is 241-827 ng/dl according to Labcorp and 260-1000 ng/dl according to Quest Laboratories. The normal range for IGF-1 is 81-225 according to Labcorp. Total T and IGF-1 levels were taken after 16 weeks and resulted in the following;

Total Testosterone
300 mg group-1,345 ng/dl a 691 ng increase from baseline
600 mg group-2,370 ng/dl a 1,737 ng increase from baseline

IGF-1
300 mg group-388 ng/dl a 74 ng increase from baseline
600 mg group-304 ng/dl a 77 ng increase from baseline

Body composition was measured after 20 weeks.

Fat Free Mass by underwater weighing
300 mg group-5.2kg (11.4lbs) increase
600 mg group-7.9kg (17.38lbs) increase
Fat Mass by underwater weighing
300 mg group-.5kg (1.1lbs) decrease
600 mg group-1.1kg (2.42lbs) decrease
Thigh Muscle Volume
300 mg group-84 cubic centimeter increase
600 mg group-126 cubic centimeter increase
Quadriceps Muscle Volume
300 mg group-43 cubic centimeter increase
600 mg group-68 cubic centimeter increase
Leg Press Strength
300 mg group-72.2kg (158.8lbs) increase
600 mg group-76.5kg (168.3lbs) increase
Leg Power
300 mg group-38.6 watt increase
600 mg group-48.1 watt increase
Hemoglobin
300 mg group-6.1 gram per liter increase
600 mg group-14.2 gram per liter increase
Plasma HDL Cholesterol
300 mg group-5.7 mg/dl decrease
600 mg group-8.4 mg/dl decrease
Acne
300 mg group-7 of the 12 men developed acne
600 mg group-2 of the 13 men developed acne

There were no significant changes in PSA or liver enzymes at any dose up to 600mg. However, long-term effects of androgen administration on the prostate, cardiovascular risk, and behavior are unknown. The study demonstrated that there is a dose dependant relationship with testosterone administration. In other words the more testosterone administered the greater the muscle building effects and potential for side effects.

Given the results of the study and based on years of personal experience I believe the first time user can safely use between 300-600 mg of testosterone enanthate or cypionate per week for 8-12 weeks. Because it is desirable to have even blood androgen levels I advise at least 2 equal injections per week. Testosterone cypionate peaks within 1-2 days after injection and falls off to almost baseline by day 10. Therefore waiting 7 days between injections of cypionate would cause wide fluctuations in blood androgen levels.


If a first time user wanted to use 600 mg of cypionate or enanthate per week he would inject 300 mg on Tuesday and another 300 mg on Saturday each week for 10 weeks. When injecting long heavy esters like cypionate with this frequency I tend to have less acne then 1 injection per week.
There are a number of esters which provide varying release times. Acetate or propionate esters extend the release time of testosterone a couple of days. In contrast, a deconate ester prolongs the release of testosterone about 3 weeks. Testosterone enanthate and cypionate are almost identical esters. The use of an ester allows for a less frequent injection schedule than using a water based testosterone like suspension which has no ester at all and is rapidly in and out of your system after injection. The published release times are not exact and are many times based on a single injection not many multiple injections which can delay the release of the hormone. Other factors affect release times of esters such as scar tissue and the muscle group injected. Only a blood test can confirm when the active hormone has cleared your system.
Esters not only effect release times but also the potency of the Testosterone as esters make up part of the steroid weight. This must be taken into account when calculating dosages. The longer the release time the less free hormone. For example propionate is about 15% more potent mg. for mg. then enanthate so 500mg of propionate would equal about 575 mg. of enanthate.
 
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any more doubters?????...............i mean its a sticky everyone should have read it numerous times.........:smoker:
 
Testosterone, deca, and anavar/oxandrin have all been shown to cause LBM gains in non-working out individuals. Some studies have contrasted those that worked out with those that didn't (it's not illegal), and usually, the group that works out has much more dramatic increases in strength than the sedentary group even though LBM gains may even be similar.
 
I didnt mean it was illegal to do the study, i mean that AAS use is illegal in supra physiological doses, so its hard to get funding for it.
 
I'm curious how they determined their leg press went up without ever doing any leg presses????

Must be a machine they have in their office, I guess.

I still think it's redic that they gained so much lean muscle WITHOUT ever touching a weight.

What are the benefits you see in those that do touch weights??? How much lean muscle then?
 
I'm curious how they determined their leg press went up without ever doing any leg presses????

Must be a machine they have in their office, I guess.

I still think it's redic that they gained so much lean muscle WITHOUT ever touching a weight.

What are the benefits you see in those that do touch weights??? How much lean muscle then?

Do leg presses once at the beginning of the study and once at the end?

In the studies I've seen, people who don't work out but use juice tend to pack on LBM pretty well, but not quite to the extent of those working out with the same gear/dose. And the strength gains in those working out are substantial while those in the sedentary group are minimal.
 
:mexican:
What were your stats when you first started, cycle, and dosage? How much do you use now when you want to bulk?

Dude been in the game since 12 years now. Can't really give straight answer. Anything over 700 mg test alone brings me up just little I'm 265 and I now trying lose weight I'm very hardgainer cause I can't workout as much cause burn out and overtrain way easy
 
I don't know too much about AAS yet but with some other hormones there is a process called downregulation of receptors, meaning that the receptors become less and less susceptible to the hormones, the more and the stronger they are "stroked" (in some cases temporary, in other - you can permanently damage your precious body). It is a common practice in medicine to use the lowest active dose which will yield sufficient results. Of course, it is always easy to dose more and blow up, get greedy but the fine art is to find the right balance.

Personally I'd find low doses attractive because I wouldn't want to raise suspicions. But to each his own, we all may have different goals and ideals and let's not forget that in some cases high doses are simply necessary :).

/lol I just realised I'm bumping a 4 year old thread!
 
Originally posted by BASK8KACE.

If you've read some of my posts on other boards, you probably already have seen that I advocate suggesting low doses for beginners & nbsp;. Why jump into 600mg per week of test as a first or second cycle when it is highly likely you will get great gains using 200-300mg (in initial cycles)?

I keep seeing people write that 200mg of testosterone per week does nothing more than shut down a man's natural test production and bring him near "normal levels"--this is not quite correct (part of the statement is correct part of it is not). This incorrect statement has endured probably because someone wrote down thier idea/theory of what happens in the body, it sounded good, and other people repeated it. But, it is not correct. Yes, 200mg of a long lasting ester of testosterone will shut down natural test production, BUT the amount of 200mg of a long lasting ester of testosterone is more than twice the "normal levels" of test in the body of a healthy non-steroid using male. Therefore, 200mg of a long lasting ester of testosterone per week is far more than enough to grow on.

(I explain more below)


I was paranoid about side effects of testosterone on a normally functioning body, so I had my blood levels checked while on 200-250mg per week. The results of the tests indicated that the amount of testosterone in my blood was more than twice the high end of the normal range (The normal free testosterone range is 50.0-210.0 pg/ml*. My levels were found to be near 550 pg/ml). I also talked to my doctor and UPJOHN nurses a lot about using testosterone at these doses. Here's a brief bit of what I've learned from my doctor, the UPJOHN nursing staff (UPJOHN was the original manufacturer of Depo-testosterone a.k.a Testosterone Cypionate.* The rights of Depo-testosterone was sold to PFIZER which now produces it under the name PHARMACIA), and professional medical documents:

*--NOTE: pg/ml is the correct unit notation.

Using a long acting ester testosterone (CYP and ENAN) does not mimic the normally functioning male body's circadian rhythm (daily rise and fall of testosterone). Testosterone, in a normally functioning body, does not explode up to high levels then gradually fall over a 1-2 week period as it does when injecting a testosterone such as CYP or ENAN. On the contrary, the body produces a small amount each day which is far below 200mg (It's around 10mg). That small amount is concentrated at the beginning of the day and then falls low by the end of the day. This process repeats itself every day and by the end of two weeks, a normally functioning body produces approximately 140mg of testosterone (appx. 70mg per week).

The use of long acting esters are in theory supposed to slowly release the testosterone over a two week period, but this is not quite what happens. To keep it simple, the delay of the esters actually allows large amounts of testosterone to build up--especially if you are taking 200mg every week as opposed to once every two weeks (biweekly) which is what the dose is supposed to be. (I'm simplifying here). Remember the "normally functioning" male produces only (appx.) 70mg per week (=140mg per two weeks). The dose doctors are recommended to perscribe is 200mg every 2 weeks (biweekly), but they tend to give 200mg every week.

So, it is fallacious reasoning to compare the TOTAL amount of testosterone produced in daily spurts in a normally functioning body over a 2 week period to the same amount of testosterone injected in one shot at the beginning of a week and reshot every week (before the previous week's dose is used up). The latter case (injections once per week) results in an overlap and build up of dose which causes the levels of testosterone to be HIGHER than normal. (Remember the shots should actually be 200mg every TWO weeks--not every week). These excess levels of testosterone are sufficient to build lean body mass faster than the "normally functioning" male.

In other words: addding up what the average male body produces per week then comparing that to the amount that is shot every week is like comparing apples to oranges. There is a whole diferent set of advantageous reactions happening in the body when it is given a full
2-week load (200mg) at the beginning of a week as opposed to getting naturally occuring, small, daily spurts of appx 10mg over the same period of time (2 weeks).

This is why a low dose cycle can yeild REASONABLE gains. Understand, I'm not talking mega-huge-fast gains. I'm talking noticably-faster-than-normal gains, which when coupled with a strict diet, sufficient rest and an excellent bodybuilding work ethic, can yeild large, solid gains (especially early in a person's cycle experience).

I don't know why this post is calling TRT or an elevated dosed TRT a cycle....CYCLE="An interval of time during which a characteristic, often regularly repeated event or sequence of events occurs." That interval of time has a beginning and an end hence why EVERYONE IN THE BB COMMUNITY uses the term cycle as a interval in time when you use a moderate to high dose of anabolics for a set amount of time then you stop that elevated dose and PCT or go back to your TRT dose!!!
 
I don't know why this post is calling TRT or an elevated dosed TRT a cycle....CYCLE="An interval of time during which a characteristic, often regularly repeated event or sequence of events occurs." That interval of time has a beginning and an end hence why EVERYONE IN THE BB COMMUNITY uses the term cycle as a interval in time when you use a moderate to high dose of anabolics for a set amount of time then you stop that elevated dose and PCT or go back to your TRT dose!!!

why are you so excited? Stonecold knows his stuff. its just someones opinion.
 
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