Mixing carbs with fat?

[AntM1564]

RDS, it is pointless to try and show this guy that this myth has been debunked. he is stuck in his way and will not change. And then when he does give a link it is from how stuff works :

And yes, those three links I ave were from bodybuilding.com, but they are NOT articles from the site. They are free ebooks from Scivation's old president, an athlete, and others who are VERY educated in nutrition. Also, no where in ANYTHING I posted did it say pizza and ice cream are good. This goes to show you are stuck in your ways and did not read anything, but just looked at the link. Neither did I or the articles say that pizza and ice cream are good. If you actually read those ebooks, you'd see that they suggest eating a lean protein source (like your chicken breast) with a few servings of complex carbs (oats is an example they use) and a serving or two of healthy fats such as almonds, olive oil, or peanut butter.

Finally, you never answered my question. Do you really think that carbs and fat do not get mixed in the stomach, especially if one eats frequently? Food will not completely digest in just 2-3 hours. If I have a meal of protein and carbs, and then 3 hours later protein and fat, the carbs and fat WILL mix with each other.

You seem to think only carbs induce an insulin response. This is being friendly now and not arguing; I think you need to read up on nutrition from good sources and authors. Everything you eat and digest wil induce an insulin response; it does not matter if there are carbs in the meal or not. Insulin is secreted. Once you understand that, I think you will understand that mixing food sources is a myth.

 

[rds63799]

I think you're right mate, I'm done with the thread although I may check back to see if he's posted some actual scientific evidence to back up his claims, or just more irrelevant info. It did make me laugh when he posted a load of info about the role of insulin, when did anybody dispute what insulin does? Straw man anyone?

Besides, the guy who asked the question hasn't posted in a while so I think the thread's done.

Anyway Ant I'll leave you to it, if he comes back to challenge you try not to beat your head against the wall too hard

 

[AntM1564]

I think you're right mate, I'm done with the thread although I may check back to see if he's posted some actual scientific evidence to back up his claims, or just more irrelevant info. It did make me laugh when he posted a load of info about the role of insulin, when did anybody dispute what insulin does? Straw man anyone?

Besides, the guy who asked the question hasn't posted in a while so I think the thread's done.

Anyway Ant I'll leave you to it, if he comes back to challenge you try not to beat your head against the wall too hard

I've already put a hole in my wall! But I'm done too with the thread. I'm for helping people, but some people think that their way is the only way and are never open to anything else. You can't help those types of people and its not worth trying.

 

[shainesboostin]

I'm glad you like to quote bodybuilding.com and such, it is pretty funny considering you are trying to make an argument that essentially says eating pizza is more healthy than say eating a steak by itself or chicken breasts.
That is essentially what you are saying right: Ice cream > Fruit, Pizza > Eggs, Fried Chicken > Baked Chicken ?
There are alot of Fatasses out there that believe this, or are just to lazy to actually understand the mechanisms of our mitochondria that synthesize adipose tissue and lipid metabolism and true macronutrient seperation. Here is a little bit of fact:

Insulin promotes synthesis of fatty acids in the liver. Insulin stimulates synthesis of glycogen in the liver, but when glycogen accumulates to high levels (roughly 5% of liver mass), continued synthesis is suppressed.

When the liver is saturated with glycogen, any additional glucose taken up is forced into pathways leading to synthesis of fatty acids, which are exported from the liver as lipoproteins. The lipoproteins are ripped apart in the circulation, providing free fatty acids for use in other tissues, including adipocytes, which use them to synthesize triglyceride.

Insulin inhibits breakdown of fat in adipose tissue.

Insulin facilitates entry of glucose into adipocytes. By these mechanisms, insulin is involved in further accumulation of triglyceride in fat cells.

From a whole body perspective, insulin has a fat-sparing effect. PERIOD. Not only does it drive most cells to preferentially oxidize carbohydrates instead of fatty acids for energy, insulin indirectly stimulates accumulation of fat in adipose tissue.

SO basically, eating carbs = insulin production = fat storage AND the body goes into a stage where if there was no insulin in the bloodstream, it would be burning FAT for fuel, but insted it burns the carbs AND stores the extra fat floating around. So, if you INCREASE the Fat while increasing the Carbs, you are essentially telling your body to stop burning Fat, start storing fat from BOTH the carbs and extra fat you are eating.
SOO:
Please explain why Pizza > Chicken? Pizza > Fruit?
This has to be good....

Please EXPALIN this! There is ALWAYS insulin present in the body! Rather you eat a carb or not, you have a basal rate/level on insulin circulating at ALL times.

Second, it has been shown that even a high protein meal can create a insulin spike.

 

[boyindasouth]

I think you're right mate, I'm done with the thread although I may check back to see if he's posted some actual scientific evidence to back up his claims, or just more irrelevant info. It did make me laugh when he posted a load of info about the role of insulin, when did anybody dispute what insulin does? Straw man anyone?

Besides, the guy who asked the question hasn't posted in a while so I think the thread's done.

Anyway Ant I'll leave you to it, if he comes back to challenge you try not to beat your head against the wall too hard

Please tell me you are not going to try to argue that the insulin response from Protein is even in the same ballpark as the insulin response from protein! GLUCAGON is released when protein is ingested, glucagon had the Opposite effect of insulin. And Glucagon was either left out of your argument because of ignorance or because it proves you wrong. Either way, here is some more scientific evidence :

Protein stimulates the release of glucagon, which stimulates the liver to release stored carbohydrates from its glycogen stores and from fat. Glucagon also inhibits the release of insulin. By controlling your intake of protein and spreading it throughout the day,you can constantly produce adequate amounts of glucagon
Protein triggers a response in the stomach that affects motility and stimulates the release of glucagon, a hormone that helps us to burn previously stored fat. In normal people,within thirty minutes of eating a small amount of protein, glucagon starts to rise,peaking at two hours. In fact,glucagon can stay elevated in blood for several hours after a protein rich meal. This gives your body plenty of time to use the fat stored in your body for fuel.

Protein does not effect blood insulin like carbs do, bottom line so please don't spread misinformation...

 

[boyindasouth]

More proof :

Studying macronutrients in isolation does not give a complete picture,as we normally eat a mixture of macro- & micro-nutrients (Frayn 2001). It is well known that addition of fat to a carbohydrate meal slows gastric emptying and reduces the glycaemic response (Jenkins et al 1981). Normand et al (2001) demonstrated that addition of moderate amount of fat (17g) to a meal delayed absorption of carbohydrates and reduced glucose concentration up to 3 hours after meal ingestion. However,a large amount of fat (42g) leads to two-phase increased glucose concentration; first immediately after a meal and a second peak approx. 3 hours after the meal ingestion,concurrently with elevated plasma insulin and non-esterified fatty acids (NEFAs) concentrations,which as reported by Frayn et al (1996) may be associated with IR. Adochio et al (2009) also noted that high-fat (HF) overfeeding resulted in significant insulin resistance in skeletal muscles.

bcnhscienceblog.blogspot.com/2010/03/macronutrients-balancing-blood-glucose.html

 

[Jean-Claude]

To be honest, I've not read all the links here but boyindasouth makes more sense and his opinion seems to be based on more solid stuff than the rest. Most guys who are against him are just saying "well your opinion is a myth" without really explaining why. Carbs do stimulate the body to release much more insulin than other macronutrients do. That is a fact.

 

[rds63799]

that makes me sad to hear you say that Jean-Claude, I really do suggest you read the Alan Aragon link "Carbs and Fat - Friends After All" link I posted.

I don't have the energy to argue it any further, so I'll leave it at that. Good luck trying to keep your carbs and fats separate, I suppose it might be possible if protein powders are your only source of protein, but the minute you add some meat in there it's all going to go Pete Tong (all meat contains fat...).

Cheers

 

[Jean-Claude]

that makes me sad to hear you say that Jean-Claude, I really do suggest you read the Alan Aragon link "Carbs and Fat - Friends After All" link I posted.

I don't have the energy to argue it any further, so I'll leave it at that. Good luck trying to keep your carbs and fats separate, I suppose it might be possible if protein powders are your only source of protein, but the minute you add some meat in there it's all going to go Pete Tong (all meat contains fat...).

Cheers

Well maybe if you gave me actual reason to believe otherwise, I would. And you are aware that most lean meat contains VERY little fat?

 

[LaQueefah]

that makes me sad to hear you say that Jean-Claude, I really do suggest you read the Alan Aragon link "Carbs and Fat - Friends After All" link I posted.

I don't have the energy to argue it any further, so I'll leave it at that. Good luck trying to keep your carbs and fats separate, I suppose it might be possible if protein powders are your only source of protein, but the minute you add some meat in there it's all going to go Pete Tong (all meat contains fat...).

Cheers

I read that article, then i went one further and read every study linked at the bottom of Aragon's page.

3 of the 4 studies listed are irrelevant to this conversation and appear to be linked just to further Aragons belief The 3 irrelevant studies all compare ketogenic diets vs. non ketogenic diets.

Study #2 from Golay is the only study that even remotely helps his argument and even then its a stretch

Here is an excerpt from Aragons page

Separation anxiety

One thing that really bugs me is when someone makes an adamant claim about how the body works, but has no objective evidence to back it up. Such is the case with claiming that mixing fats and carbs is the ticket to fat gain (or fat retention). To my knowledge, there’s only a single study directly comparing the separation of carbs and fats versus their combination [2]. Both groups lost a significant amount of bodyweight. Although not to a degree of statistical significance, the combination group had greater weight and fat loss. The researchers concluded that despite popular belief, the separation of macronutrients (carbs and fat in particular) had no metabolic benefit over consuming them together.

Golay's study is based upon 54 obese patients in a controlled environment. They dont discuss workouts, they dont discuss starting bf% Most of us on here are not at 30%bf. I dont think we can look at this study and draw a firm conclusion either way.

My point is, everyone is different, when we get to a certain level we need an extra push some take diuretics, some do keto, some cut all sodium and some do HGH, Tren or both.

Anyone who sits here and tells you this is right and here is my link is fooling themselves and pushing what they THINK is fact but its not.

Ive done every type of diet known to man, i went from 18-20%bf to 10-11% and couldnt get lower, by reading 3J's threads and many others I experimented and got down lower my guess is 8-9%.

This shit takes years to tweak and see what works for each person, doing it natural is even more difficult and time consuming. For me when im looking to lean up. its keto with fasted cardio. The other 8 months out of the year I separate carbs and fat.

 

[rds63799]

ok ok, this is DEFINITELY the last post I'm going to make in this thread, because we're just going round in circles. LaQueefah, you make a good point about the study not being all too relevant, which Aragon actually addresses in this paragraph:

"The current body of research focuses on obese, deconditioned, or untrained subjects. And still, the moderate-carb/fat-combining fails to show a fat loss disadvantage over carb-restricted or carb-separated conditions. Putting athletic subjects through the same conditions would show even LESS of a difference. Since fit folks have far better glucose and insulin metabolisms than the unconditioned obese, nit-picky combination or separation would be a nonfactor for fat loss."

but seriously, I'm out now. I've enjoyed the discussion though, and I think there's enough info been posted by both sides for anyone reading this thread to make their own decision.

cheers guys, I'm off to fry up some tasty rice, hehe