Look at the spreadsheet in my original post. It is all detail there.
More and More Failed PCTs...
- Thread starter cashout
- Start date
Look at the spreadsheet in my original post. It is all detail there.
Imo the blast phase is more important then using it during the cycle. Either way bro all he is saying is that it is best to use the Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) blast at the correct time to improve recovery chances. This is not saying that other methods wont work. If you dont have Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) then yes you can just use the clomid and nolva and arimidex (arimidex tapered half way through pct) and you should be fine.
100% correct.
I've done this for more than 20 years now with myself and countless other people and it has proven to be far more effective than what is tossed around as "convential wisdom."
I personally get my blood test done every 3 months and I have for the last 15 years. I've have plenty of blood work of my own and from others to support this protocol.
It is not a matter of "everyone is different" because most people have absolutely no evidence to support what works for them. They are totally guessing because they don't get blood work and verify their results.
There may be other ways of PCTing that work. Again my point is, most folks never bother to do the homework and check the answers to actually know for themselves.
Again, my position is that the goal of PCT is to achieve the highest level of recovery of the HPTA as possible. In my opinion and from my extensive years of experience, this plan does just that with a very high level of success. But there are shortcomings. It is not cheap. It is long. It uses higher amounts of drugs. Those are all real criticisms. I've always answered those the same way...do you want the best chance at recovery or do you want to save a few bucks, get done quickly, and use as little drugs as possible? For me the answer is obvious.
Now there will always be those who take the counter positions that this is not a necessary protocol for recovery and that I'm wrong. That is fine.
That is their opinion and in the end, it is their HPTA with which they are gambling. That is what we are all doing. The difference is when I gamble with mine I want to have the best odds on my side to recover.
I did and I see you suggest 2000iu every other day. which is pretty much a bottle of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) every 2 days. That seems like a lot. Although you would know better then me since you been doing it so long. I might give it a shot. This is my first cycle and I am trying to get my post cycle therapy (pct) down before I start.
I'd recommend Adex or Letro and not Aromasin in PCT b/c Asin is a steroidal Aromatase inhibitor (AI) and has some androgenic properties and that androgenic component can have an effect on recovery. You don't want additional androgens in your system during recovery.
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Just wanted to chime in.
I usually like to run Test E and Deca (14/12 weeks). I have tried running it with no Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) and i lost a lot of my gains.
The last two cycles i did the blast, day after the last pin, and my loss was very minimal. In fact i was able get the weight and gains back with in 3-4 weeks of PCT.
I have not tried running Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) 21 days later as suggested.
I will porb try that next, after my summer cycle and see how it goes.
But i do believe the blast, right after, has some benefit.
I usually like to run Test E and Deca (14/12 weeks). I have tried running it with no Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) and i lost a lot of my gains.
The last two cycles i did the blast, day after the last pin, and my loss was very minimal. In fact i was able get the weight and gains back with in 3-4 weeks of PCT.
I have not tried running Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) 21 days later as suggested.
I will porb try that next, after my summer cycle and see how it goes.
But i do believe the blast, right after, has some benefit.
I'm not sure I understand how hcg is effective at a low dose on cycle, yet not effect if the blast is started with a high level of androgens present? Either way there is no current LH signal from the pituitary. Adding Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG), which is actually stronger than LH, would do the same as T at any point, it would supress LH. Then we use serms to basically force GnRH-lh/fsh.
And if you are waiting 14-21 days to start Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG), that would put you at 24-31 days minimum to start serm therapy? It seems that many guys who suffer a "hormonal crash" do so during the typical waiting period.
I agree that more time should be taken between AAS and Serms, but I'm not understanding the hcg use.
And as a tip to everyone, make sure to supplement with NAC while using Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG), this will prevent hcg burnout and protect the lydeg's from essentially dying off. This should not be a real concern with small doses and blasts of 10 days or less but I will take 300mg daily to avoid any concern.
And if you are waiting 14-21 days to start Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG), that would put you at 24-31 days minimum to start serm therapy? It seems that many guys who suffer a "hormonal crash" do so during the typical waiting period.
I agree that more time should be taken between AAS and Serms, but I'm not understanding the hcg use.
And as a tip to everyone, make sure to supplement with NAC while using Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG), this will prevent hcg burnout and protect the lydeg's from essentially dying off. This should not be a real concern with small doses and blasts of 10 days or less but I will take 300mg daily to avoid any concern.
brownchoclit
New member
hey cashout..
i just had my last shot of test (was running 500mg enanthate/week,on cycle i was using 1000iu's/week of hcg) 7 days ago...unfortunately,using the more traditional pct approach i started blasting hcg @2000iu's/shot EOD after my last test-shot, i've had 03 hcg blast shots now...
what do i do now? can i revert back to 1000iu's/week for the next 7 days and then start my blast again(as per your method)? please help...i've progressed well on cycle...and i would like to hang on to as much as possible...
been reading posts from OX and OAK also who were saying things along the same lines as you..but unfortunately i came across these posts after i started blasting the hcg. is there anything i can do now?
i just had my last shot of test (was running 500mg enanthate/week,on cycle i was using 1000iu's/week of hcg) 7 days ago...unfortunately,using the more traditional pct approach i started blasting hcg @2000iu's/shot EOD after my last test-shot, i've had 03 hcg blast shots now...
what do i do now? can i revert back to 1000iu's/week for the next 7 days and then start my blast again(as per your method)? please help...i've progressed well on cycle...and i would like to hang on to as much as possible...
been reading posts from OX and OAK also who were saying things along the same lines as you..but unfortunately i came across these posts after i started blasting the hcg. is there anything i can do now?
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brownchoclit
New member
also i have only exemestane...AI's not available in my country. how much of this should i take ED...12.5mg??
First, I don't suggest using HCG on cycle.
Of course, I'll get lynched for writing that but in 20 years, I've yet to see one person with blood tests that support the use of HCG on cycle as a means of improving the chances of recovery after cycle.
I've tried it both ways myself in many of my own cycles and I've proven it time and time again with my own blood work.
There is no improvement in recovery from using HCG on cycle.
Of course, that goes against "conventional wisdom" around here but I've got 20 years worth of evidence to support what I am saying and most of the guys here have only a guess that is at best a shot in the dark.
The fact that I don't support HCG on cycle fits perfectly with my original post.
I recommend allowing the level of AAS in the system to drop off to non-supra-physiological levels before HCG therapy so that when the feedback loop is initiated it is not immediately interrupted again by the presence of a high androgen level. That is what potentially can happen when one starts HCG blasting immediately after the last pin.
I'm not saying that HCG blasting immediately after the last pin is wrong or won't work. I think that is how many on here are reading this.
What I am saying is that you can increase your chances of recovery by waiting until the AAS reduce to a normal physiological level.
As for the "hormonal crash" you mentioned that many experience in the 24-31 day window, I argue that that is a function of blasting HCG too soon, as most on here do right now. When you blast too soon your HCG will prime the testes only to get shut right back down after the feedback loop ramps up and subsequently detects an overabundance of androgens. That there is your crash even when you toss in a bunch of SERMs.
At this point you are too far into your plan. Stay the course and follow through with your plan.
Changing now would only make it more difficult in the future to figure out what actually worked for you and what did not work for you this time around.
THE-DET-OAK
IncreasedMyT @ ULV
i have to agree with cashout on this because i have heard more than a couple of times that HCG will stimulate the pituitary when test levels on are the decline, and will not with supra phys levels of T in the blood.
for those that are convcerned i dont see a problem in starting a blast right after as long as your run your HCG all the way through til its time to start serms.
basically you are re sensitizing the leydig cells with Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG), and running it on cycle helps fight de sensitization, but as Cashout is pointing out, that still leaves the need to prime the pituitary becuase it is also desensitized from lack of function.
for those that are convcerned i dont see a problem in starting a blast right after as long as your run your HCG all the way through til its time to start serms.
basically you are re sensitizing the leydig cells with Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG), and running it on cycle helps fight de sensitization, but as Cashout is pointing out, that still leaves the need to prime the pituitary becuase it is also desensitized from lack of function.
If anyone needs more support for my position on this, go ask all the Hormone Replacement Therapy (HRT) that use HCG weekly what their LH and FSH number look like.
They are taking only a couple of hundred mgs of test a week and their LH and FSH are still both <.2 or lower.
That means the pituitary is not fully functional even with the use of HCG. The testes may be somewhat functional and producing sperm from the HCG applications but the pituitary is still shut down and will remain so as long as the feedback loop continues to detect the presence of high androgen levels.
They are taking only a couple of hundred mgs of test a week and their LH and FSH are still both <.2 or lower.
That means the pituitary is not fully functional even with the use of HCG. The testes may be somewhat functional and producing sperm from the HCG applications but the pituitary is still shut down and will remain so as long as the feedback loop continues to detect the presence of high androgen levels.
brownchoclit
New member
oh ok..damn!
thanks cashout! is exemestane ok? its the only Aromatase inhibitor (AI) i have available here to me...what dosage should i use ED ? thanks again..
thanks cashout! is exemestane ok? its the only Aromatase inhibitor (AI) i have available here to me...what dosage should i use ED ? thanks again..
liftingallday
New member
WOW 2000iu shots. That is a lot of HCG. Whats that like 4 bottles of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) just for a blast? A 12 week PCT sounds interesting though.
