More and More Failed PCTs...

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[temptation]

@cashout, I'm currently running 12 weeks of test e 500mg/wk with one shot Mon PM and one on Thu PM. However in my 12 week I am planning to go on vacation abroad so after reading how other are handling that while on cycle I decided to go with a fat shot (500 in one shot) on the Sunday evening before my leave.

This would mean

1-11 500mg (250 Mon; 250 Thu)
12 (or the very end of 11) 500mg in one shot

Basically in week 11 I would have two 250 shots on Mon and Thu and one 500 shot on Sunday evening.

My question would be after how many days should I run the Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) blast because I'm not sure how to do the math in this case. Thanks!

 

[cashout]

Really the difference would be minor. With 1 500 mgs shot on Sunday you'll get a more pronounced initial spike however your tail for the expressed half life would also be somewhat shorter. In the overall schema, I would use the the same half life of 7 days and the 500 mgs total. it is still going to be between 12-14 days to approximate non supra physiological levels then Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) blast.

@cashout, I'm currently running 12 weeks of test e 500mg/wk with one shot Mon PM and one on Thu PM. However in my 12 week I am planning to go on vacation abroad so after reading how other are handling that while on cycle I decided to go with a fat shot (500 in one shot) on the Sunday evening before my leave.

This would mean

1-11 500mg (250 Mon; 250 Thu)
12 (or the very end of 11) 500mg in one shot

Basically in week 11 I would have two 250 shots on Mon and Thu and one 500 shot on Sunday evening.

My question would be after how many days should I run the Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) blast because I'm not sure how to do the math in this case. Thanks!

 

[stige]

Sorry cash can you pls read my question?? I'm very confused and need your help !

 

[cashout]

I cannot understand what you are trying to ask me.

Please clearly write your question and I'll be glad to answer you if I can do so.

Big question.... From what I read i want to follow this way: 12 week cycle with 400 mg\week Test prop with Adex EOD at 0.25.... I want to keep cruise of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) at 500 iu a week... Keep 500 and then after 1 week of last test pin do the blast at 2000 iu /week for 5 weeks. Adex troghout all period and also Pct... But if I have to start post cycle therapy (pct) after Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) blast.. It mean more than 1 month after last pin of test??? Correct?? Tnks

 

[stige]

Sorry man.. I'm italian and my english is not Very good .
My question is : when start Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) blast in a 12 weeks cycle or test prop ?
Second question: when start post cycle therapy (pct)?
( in my previous cycles i always did Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) during cycle)

 

[cashout]

Sorry man.. I'm italian and my english is not Very good .
My question is : when start Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) blast in a 12 weeks cycle or test prop ?
Second question: when start post cycle therapy (pct)?
( in my previous cycles i always did Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) during cycle)

For Test Prop @ 400 mg per week, Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) blast starts 5-6 days after the last shot.

-Prop has approx. 3 day half life.
-After 3 days, 200 mgs active drug, after 6 days 100mg active drug. So the 5th-6th day will be in the normal physiological range.

Start at 5th-6th day 2000 iu of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) on EOD schedule for a total of 10 shots. The very next day start the SERMs.

Look at the very first post in I made to start this thread - there is a link to a spreadsheet with all the specifics.

 

[UserAt204]

Again, I am not going to draw referential comparisons to other drugs because I don't know anything about those other substances.

I think, perhaps, that one premises you may be erroneously adopting is that test functions in a similar fashion to other drugs that you are comparing it to in terms of tapering.

I do understand what you are saying. In theory, the approach is well grounded but in practice the application it doesn't work.

As User204 mentioned in his post, the taper was common practice in the 1980s until Dr. Fred Hatfield and Dan Duchine introduced Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) and SERMs to the bodybuilding community. From that time we have learned a few things about recovery. The most important is the "threshold" of what is normal test levels.

Simply, there is a "threshold" that needs to be crossed in each individual regarding the approximation of normal physiological test levels. There is no improvement in recovery if we continue the tapering of test below the threshold of normal levels IF we restart the test production naturally. The reason is because we have learned that the HPTA has both positive and negative feedback loops built into the system. In recovery in otherwise healthy adult males, the presence of supra physiological levels of test is a feedback marker. Once the system recognize non supra physiological levels, the HPTA is ready and able to support normal endogenous test production. All the extended taper could possibly do is limit the restart and its fullest capacity for natural test production. Now, it may give a high dosage user the advantage of slowly withdrawing his doages and allowing him more time to acclimate himself to the low levels BUT it should not be extended below the point that approximates the normal test level.

Research has shown that in a very high percentage individuals, the threshold for approximation of normal levels occurs somewhere less than 200 mgs a week of test. That is an estimate of course.

Excellent post, excellent break down of the information, and a good explanation of the goal following the cycle. The point is, things can be different in all cycles depending on so many factors but the end goal is the same, starting the proper ancillaries at the proper times and that time is when you have gotten the exo test at a certain point.

Now I still use Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) from the last pin of test, but that's what I've found to work for me but it may also be a comfort thing as well but when looking at restarting a suppressed HPTA cashouts post is pretty dead on with what and how you are trying to accomplish it. This is where blood work is very important, even though an ester will slow the release of exo test, your body may metabolize the hormones at different rates so you have to check labs and see where you are at and decide when to start your Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) and then serms. Notice cash doesn't just give a blanket answer of take this in x amount of days and this after Y, it's because each person will be slightly different.

 

[stige]

Many tnks cash!!! I want to keep also the cruise of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) during all cycle at 500 ui and also keep adex from week1 to the end of post cycle therapy (pct). What do you think?

 

[cashout]

Many tnks cash!!! I want to keep also the cruise of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) during all cycle at 500 ui and also keep adex from week1 to the end of post cycle therapy (pct). What do you think?

Look at the spreadsheet. I've addressed both questions many times already in this thread.

 

[fxalco]

Look at the spreadsheet. I've addressed both questions many times already in this thread.

therefore, the SERM begins 5 weeks after the last injection of TE? is that correct?

 

[cashout]

therefore, the SERM begins 5 weeks after the last injection of TE? is that correct?

Assuming 500 mgs of Test E or C per week yes.

Other ester would change the timing based on the respective half life.

 

[fxalco]

Assuming 500 mgs of Test E or C per week yes.

Other ester would change the timing based on the respective half life.

from my humble (and perhaps wrong) opinion, but you should start the SERM after 2 weeks after the last injection of TE?

 

[cashout]

from my humble (and perhaps wrong) opinion, but you should start the SERM after 2 weeks after the last injection of TE?

No. Go back and re-read what is written in this thread.

First, allow the androgens to clear your system and approximate normal physiological levels. That depends on the estification of the drug and the dosage used. Find the half life and do the math. Normal range is going to be less than 200 mgs of active drug in the systems. I like to try to get it down to about 150 mgs personally.

Second, restore testicular function using HCG. It requires a significant dosage and works best in a pulsing pattern over about 3 weeks. This should not be done when there is a supra physiological level of AAS in the system, that will result in a potential restart and a subsequent crash because of the negative feedback of the supra physiological levels.

Third, use SERMs to support test production via stimulating the hypothalamus and pituitary to ramp up the production of LH & FSH once the Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) is withdrawn.

Finally, continue the use of Aromatase inhibitor (AI) and taper it out slowing over the end of the post cycle therapy (pct) to mitigate any potential estrogen effects from the natural elevation of test.

That is the summary of this entire thread...again.

 

[BodybuilderX]

Thanks Cashout Once again, I can tell you're aggravated about having to repeat yourself, I would be too lol.

I'll undergo blood work to see if the above theory of; (HCG During cycle+HCG Blast 2 weeks after last pin) Will be effective and if further Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) is needed before commencing Serms.

I'm just worried about the Gyno effect using the Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) blast, I'll probably have to increase my Adex dosage to 1mg+. Again, Blood work will reveal everything

 

[White Chocolate]

Thanks Cashout Once again, I can tell you're aggravated about having to repeat yourself, I would be too lol.

I'll undergo blood work to see if the above theory of; (HCG During cycle+HCG Blast 2 weeks after last pin) Will be effective and if further Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) is needed before commencing Serms.

I'm just worried about the Gyno effect using the Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) blast, I'll probably have to increase my Adex dosage to 1mg+. Again, Blood work will reveal everything

blood work wont reveal if Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) is doing anything while your on your cycle fyi

 

[BodybuilderX]

No i know. It's a safety precaution though, I need to be 100% fertile for my women LOL

And i'm getting bloodwork done after my Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) Blast.

 

[White Chocolate]

No i know. It's a safety precaution though, I need to be 100% fertile for my women LOL

And i'm getting bloodwork done after my Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) Blast.

The lh signal is not what forces spermatogenisis. Lh is the signal that forces testosterone production. Spermatogenisis is forced by the fsh signal. Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) provides the lh signal so im not sure how that would keep anyone fertile while the fsh signal is still suppressed.

 

[fxalco]

really thanks. I did not understand a thing ... letrozole should be taken during the Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) + SERM (as per your diagram exel), but is taken, even during the cycle? in what dosages?

like this

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Aoz9Nt9xdbXidDJTQVpaQ21nLWFLN1JCNmplQTFlaFE

 

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