More and More Failed PCTs...

[BodybuilderX]

I've discovered an article about Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) usage. I am still skeptical about the high dosage of the Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) Blast (ie. 2000iu EOD for 10 days) So I've been doing some research and it's very contradicting, would you mind shedding some light cashout in this regard, Here is what a testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) Doctor wrote:


My post cycle therapy (pct) Protocol
Since I've been hanging out here a bit lately, I've been getting quite a few emails from guys wanting individualized advice on their cycles. In the first place, I cannot design cycles, nor do I prescribe steroids (just ancillary medications). That would be a violation of my Oath as a physician, and DEA law to boot. Also, obviously I cannot afford to give away free Consultations. So, I'll post my post cycle therapy (pct) Protocols here, for anyone who may choose to use them.

Also, I'm just running to catch a plane for Las Vegas, attending the American Academy of Anti-Aging Medicine International Conference. I guess they are supposed to publish an article I wrote on how to administer testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) for men. Wish me luck!

Here it is:

I advise my AAS patients to use small amounts of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) (250IU to 500IU) two days each week, right from the beginning of the cycle. This serves to maintain testicular form and function. It makes more sense to me to keep the horse in the barn, so to speak, then to have to chase it across three counties later on. I am also a big fan of maintaining estrogen within physiological ranges. Both therapies have been shown to hasten recovery.

Any more than 500IU of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) per day causes too much aromatase activity. Some feel aromatase is actually toxic to the Leydig cells of the testes. You are then inducing primary hypogonadism (which is permanent) while treating steroid-induced secondary (hypogonadotrophic) hypogonadism (which is temporary--hopefully).

If 250IU or 500IU on two days each week isn’t enough to stave off testicular atrophy, then I recommend using it more days each week (as opposed to taking larger doses). In fact, I wouldn’t mind having a guy use 250IU per day ALL THROUGH the cycle. Those that have tell me they thus avoid that edgy, burned-out feeling they usually get. They also say they simply feel better each day. Subjective reports, to be sure, but they are hard not to appreciate. Especially when Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) is so inexpensive.

The testes are then ready, willing and able to again produce testosterone at the end of the cycle. LH levels rise fairly rapidly, but endogenous testosterone production is limited by lack of use. I also want to make sure a SERM, such as Clomid or Nolvadex, is at effective serum dosage (around 100mg QD for Clomid, 20-40mg QD for Nolvadex) when serum androgen levels drop to a concentration roughly equal to 200mg of testosterone per week. That is when androgenic inhibition at the HP no longer dominates over estrogenic antagonism with respect to inducing LH production. Of course, if the fellow has been doing Clomid or Nolvadex all along the way (and I now prefer Nolvadex over Clomid, due to the possibility of negative sides from the Clomid), he is all set to simply continue it at the end (no need to switch from one to the other). BTW, I see no evidence of any benefit in using BOTH SERM’s at the same time. I used to think a couple of weeks of the SERM was enough; now I like to see an entire month after the last shot of AAS (and migration of long to short esters as the cycle matures). Tapering the SERM is probably a good idea during the last week, as well.

I want my patients to stop taking Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) within a week after the end of the cycle. The testosterone production it induces will further inhibit recovery, as will using Androgel, or any other testosterone preparation, while in recovery. There is no escaping this, as there is no such thing as a “bridge”. Just because you are not inhibiting the HPTA for the entire 24 hours does not mean you are not suppressing it at all. IOW, you can’t “fool” the body—it is smarter than you are.

I like Arimidex during the cycle (in fact, consider use of an Aromatase inhibitor (AI) while taking aromatisables a necessity) but it ABSOLUTELY should not be used post cycle (even though it has been shown to increase LH production) because the risk of driving estrogen too low, and therefore further damaging an already compromised Lipid Profile, is too great (this also drives libido back into the ground—and we don’t want that, do we?).

All this is meant to get my guys through recovery as fast as possible (the real goal, yes?). So far, all of them who have tried it have reported they are recovering faster than when they have tried other protocols.

 

[fxalco]

compliments CASH, really great.
I created this cycle, the PCT is accurate?

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Aoz9Nt9xdbXidHRjS1ozSjFoS2JXckVZZmJlUHp6b0E#gid=1

Thanks for your patience

 

[bigherm2121]

The Study: Two hypogonadal former anabolic steroid users were studied. Normal levels of LH are >3.6 IU/L and Testosterone are 300***8212;1000 ng/dl. Former anabolic steroid users often have suppressed levels of both.

The Results: Subject #1 is a 6', 206lb former user of 500***8212;2000+ grams per week of anabolics. His baseline numbers were: LH<1IU/L, Test=191ng/dl. This suject underwent a 32 day treatment of 2500 IU of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) every 4 days, 50 mg of clomid 2 times per day, and 10 mg nolvadex per day. 15 days after treatment his numbers were: LH=5.2IU/L, Test=1072 ng/dl.

Subject #2 is a 5'10", 184lb male who used 400 mg per week of nandrolone. His baseline numbers were: LH<1IU/L, Test=45ng/dl. This subject's 32 day treatment consisted of 2500 IU of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) every 4 days, 50 mg of clomid 2 times per day, and 10 mg nolvadex per day. There was no change. He underwent another treatment consisting of 60 days of 5000 IU of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) every 4 days for 4 injections, then 2500 IU every 4 days for 4 injections, 50 mg of clomid 2 times per day, and 10 mg nolvadex per day. Still, no change. For the next 32 days, this subject received 5000 IU of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) every other day for 6 injections, then 2500 IU every other day for 6 injections given with 150 IU of menotropins, 50 mg of clomid 2 times per day, and 10 mg nolvadex 2 times per day. 15 days after treatment his numbers were: LH=9.8IU/L, Test=507 ng/dl.(20)

Sorry but I found this interesting. Found this somewhere else I knew decca shut you down hard but this is really hard. It took him a while to recover. What do you think about this cash?

Comments: The authors of this paper have presented some very interesting data that the medical community needs to learn from. When dealing with former androgen users, there may be better ways to increase Testosterone than the standard patch treatment (which will only prolong the problem of decreased T production.) Hypogonadal former androgen users need a treatment, not a band-aid. If you need to jump start your Testosterone after an androgen cycle, this combination of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG), Clomid, and Nolvadex may be just what the doctor ordered

 

[cashout]

I've read this many time before - this is Dr. John Crisler's writing. He makes some valid points but there are also some things that are totally unsubstantiated as well and with those points I disagree.

First, this is about on cycle application of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) and what to do following the cycle.

That is different from my position so these ideas are not comparing apples to apples.

As I've written previously, on cycle use of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) makes sense and I'm not totally against it. One of my problems is that everyone "ASSUMES" it is effective for maintaining testicular function while on cycle. I see that assumption here as well. That is a big assumption for a couple of reasons - 1) there is no practical way to measure the success, if any, from administering of on cycle Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) - no you can't look at LH & FSH b/c those remain suppressed as long as there is a supra physiological level of test in one's system. 2) so if you can't assess it, what is the correct dosage to administer? Who knows! Some will say 250 -500 but what is that based upon? Guess work? Whether the 'boys' feel 'plump'? That's just shooting in the dark.

Anyway, let's just assume for a second it actually does prevent testicular shutdown. That leads to another problem, and the more important of the issues to me, and that is guys allow the on-cycle use of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) to become an excuse for not doing a full PCT, as I and many others have already described. So, on cycle use of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) is not wrong but don't use it as an excuse to not do a full PCT at the end of the cycle.


One of my other issues with what is written here is this: "Any more than 500IU of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) per day causes too much aromatase activity. Some feel aromatase is actually toxic to the Leydig cells of the testes."

That statement has NEVER been substantiated in any for or fashion. That is pure speculation.

We both agree on these points...

"I also want to make sure a SERM, such as Clomid or Nolvadex, is at effective serum dosage (around 100mg QD for Clomid, 20-40mg QD for Nolvadex) when serum androgen levels drop to a concentration roughly equal to 200mg of testosterone per week."

Those are the same dosages of Clomid and Nolva that I suggest and I furthermore suggest using both BECAUSE research has shown a synergistic effect in using both over using either one alone. Moreover, I've proved it with several individuals including myself through the use of blood work.

Another important point he makes in that last quote, that we both agree upon, is waiting until the level of hormones in the body has returned to close to normal levels...

"...when serum androgen levels drop to a concentration roughly equal to 200mg of testosterone per week."

As I've written many times, you cannot restore the HPTA when there is a supra physiological level of AAS in the system. The feedback loops will remain disruptive if there is.

For my position, Adex during PCT is a MUST because of the potential to increase estrogen from the application of HCG. obviously, in what he is recommending , he is assuming that the weekly Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) shots have maintained function - again BIG ASSUMPTION and one that I've often found to be the failing of many a ASS user.

He mentions the lipid profile issue - that is such a short run issue that I don't even consider it. One's lipid profile can be restored in short order if the offending issue is the use oa an Aromatase inhibitor (AI). I wouldn't consider that a particularly valid argument.

But in the end, remember, he is advance his thoughts on what to do for those folks using Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) on cycle. That is significantly different that what i am talking about

I've discovered an article about Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) usage. I am still skeptical about the high dosage of the Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) Blast (ie. 2000iu EOD for 10 days) So I've been doing some research and it's very contradicting, would you mind shedding some light cashout in this regard, Here is what a testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) Doctor wrote:


My PCT Protocol
Since I've been hanging out here a bit lately, I've been getting quite a few emails from guys wanting individualized advice on their cycles. In the first place, I cannot design cycles, nor do I prescribe steroids (just ancillary medications). That would be a violation of my Oath as a physician, and DEA law to boot. Also, obviously I cannot afford to give away free Consultations. So, I'll post my PCT Protocols here, for anyone who may choose to use them.

Also, I'm just running to catch a plane for Las Vegas, attending the American Academy of Anti-Aging Medicine International Conference. I guess they are supposed to publish an article I wrote on how to administer testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) for men. Wish me luck!

Here it is:

I advise my AAS patients to use small amounts of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) (250IU to 500IU) two days each week, right from the beginning of the cycle. This serves to maintain testicular form and function. It makes more sense to me to keep the horse in the barn, so to speak, then to have to chase it across three counties later on. I am also a big fan of maintaining estrogen within physiological ranges. Both therapies have been shown to hasten recovery.

Any more than 500IU of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) per day causes too much aromatase activity. Some feel aromatase is actually toxic to the Leydig cells of the testes. You are then inducing primary hypogonadism (which is permanent) while treating steroid-induced secondary (hypogonadotrophic) hypogonadism (which is temporary--hopefully).

If 250IU or 500IU on two days each week isn***8217;t enough to stave off testicular atrophy, then I recommend using it more days each week (as opposed to taking larger doses). In fact, I wouldn***8217;t mind having a guy use 250IU per day ALL THROUGH the cycle. Those that have tell me they thus avoid that edgy, burned-out feeling they usually get. They also say they simply feel better each day. Subjective reports, to be sure, but they are hard not to appreciate. Especially when Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) is so inexpensive.

The testes are then ready, willing and able to again produce testosterone at the end of the cycle. LH levels rise fairly rapidly, but endogenous testosterone production is limited by lack of use. I also want to make sure a SERM, such as Clomid or Nolvadex, is at effective serum dosage (around 100mg QD for Clomid, 20-40mg QD for Nolvadex) when serum androgen levels drop to a concentration roughly equal to 200mg of testosterone per week. That is when androgenic inhibition at the HP no longer dominates over estrogenic antagonism with respect to inducing LH production. Of course, if the fellow has been doing Clomid or Nolvadex all along the way (and I now prefer Nolvadex over Clomid, due to the possibility of negative sides from the Clomid), he is all set to simply continue it at the end (no need to switch from one to the other). BTW, I see no evidence of any benefit in using BOTH SERM***8217;s at the same time. I used to think a couple of weeks of the SERM was enough; now I like to see an entire month after the last shot of AAS (and migration of long to short esters as the cycle matures). Tapering the SERM is probably a good idea during the last week, as well.

I want my patients to stop taking Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) within a week after the end of the cycle. The testosterone production it induces will further inhibit recovery, as will using Androgel, or any other testosterone preparation, while in recovery. There is no escaping this, as there is no such thing as a ***8220;bridge***8221;. Just because you are not inhibiting the HPTA for the entire 24 hours does not mean you are not suppressing it at all. IOW, you can***8217;t ***8220;fool***8221; the body***8212;it is smarter than you are.

I like Arimidex during the cycle (in fact, consider use of an Aromatase inhibitor (AI) while taking aromatisables a necessity) but it ABSOLUTELY should not be used post cycle (even though it has been shown to increase LH production) because the risk of driving estrogen too low, and therefore further damaging an already compromised Lipid Profile, is too great (this also drives libido back into the ground***8212;and we don***8217;t want that, do we?).

All this is meant to get my guys through recovery as fast as possible (the real goal, yes?). So far, all of them who have tried it have reported they are recovering faster than when they have tried other protocols.

 

[cashout]

With these two guys it is hard to do direct comparisons.

We don't know what the histories are in regard to the 3Ds - Drugs, Duration, and Dosage.

We are not told about the cycling history in any way.

Even more importantly, we don't know anything about their PRE-CYCLE numbers. The deca user may have had much lower overall natural test levels from the start.

There is too many uncontrollable exogenous variables to do these as direct comps.

The Study: Two hypogonadal former anabolic steroid users were studied. Normal levels of LH are >3.6 IU/L and Testosterone are 300***8212;1000 ng/dl. Former anabolic steroid users often have suppressed levels of both.

The Results: Subject #1 is a 6', 206lb former user of 500***8212;2000+ grams per week of anabolics. His baseline numbers were: LH<1IU/L, Test=191ng/dl. This suject underwent a 32 day treatment of 2500 IU of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) every 4 days, 50 mg of clomid 2 times per day, and 10 mg nolvadex per day. 15 days after treatment his numbers were: LH=5.2IU/L, Test=1072 ng/dl.

Subject #2 is a 5'10", 184lb male who used 400 mg per week of nandrolone. His baseline numbers were: LH<1IU/L, Test=45ng/dl. This subject's 32 day treatment consisted of 2500 IU of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) every 4 days, 50 mg of clomid 2 times per day, and 10 mg nolvadex per day. There was no change. He underwent another treatment consisting of 60 days of 5000 IU of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) every 4 days for 4 injections, then 2500 IU every 4 days for 4 injections, 50 mg of clomid 2 times per day, and 10 mg nolvadex per day. Still, no change. For the next 32 days, this subject received 5000 IU of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) every other day for 6 injections, then 2500 IU every other day for 6 injections given with 150 IU of menotropins, 50 mg of clomid 2 times per day, and 10 mg nolvadex 2 times per day. 15 days after treatment his numbers were: LH=9.8IU/L, Test=507 ng/dl.(20)

Sorry but I found this interesting. Found this somewhere else I knew decca shut you down hard but this is really hard. It took him a while to recover. What do you think about this cash?

Comments: The authors of this paper have presented some very interesting data that the medical community needs to learn from. When dealing with former androgen users, there may be better ways to increase Testosterone than the standard patch treatment (which will only prolong the problem of decreased T production.) Hypogonadal former androgen users need a treatment, not a band-aid. If you need to jump start your Testosterone after an androgen cycle, this combination of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG), Clomid, and Nolvadex may be just what the doctor ordered

 

[cashout]

compliments CASH, really great.
I created this cycle, the PCT is accurate?

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Aoz9Nt9xdbXidHRjS1ozSjFoS2JXckVZZmJlUHp6b0E#gid=1

Thanks for your patience

1) I'd wait 12-14 days after the last shot of Test E before beginning Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) - don't start the day after.

2) Start he clomid and nolva the same day - the day after the last Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) shot.

3) You can use Asin but I recommend not to do so in PCT b/c it is a steroidal Aromatase inhibitor (AI) and has some androgenic affinity. I recommend Letro or Adex in PCT for that reason.

 

[ebracer05]

a

 

[cashout]

First and foremost, I have absolutely no basis for an opinion whatsoever because I don't know a single thing about any of the other drugs you reference. I've neither used them nor worked with anyone who has. So I can't draw any kind of referential comparisons.

To be very specific, I do have 27 years of personal experience and dedicated research in the area of performance enhancement using AAS and associated support meds. Outside of that arena, I've never used any other drug beyond basic antibiotics and OTC NSAIDS. Heck, I've never even smoked weed and I can count on one hand the times I've had a drink of alcohol. The application of AAS and the like is all I know. Well, and maybe also 5-AR inhibitors too...

Sorry...no insight here.

Cashout, it seems to me that the more I read about exogenous testosterone administration, the more it seems to differ from other chemical manipulations in the body, even those within the HPTA axis. Let's talk about dopamine, for example. I have taken dopamanergic medications for an REM sleep disorder off and on for 2 years or so now under the direction of a neurologist. It will probably be impossible to legitimately compare this to testosterone because I never assessed and am not sure if it's possible to assess my endogenous levels of dopamine prior to starting the medications.

All I know is that within a few weeks of cessation from either methylphenidate or amphetamine (provided it's been properly tapered... this is not true of cold turkey cessation, which is very painful) I feel exactly like I felt previously.

As far as the data I've seen, within a few months of total cessation from dopamanergic drugs, there is no greater downregulation of DAT action, dopamine receptor number, or dopamine production from baseline. When you start talking about substituted amphetamines like methamphetamine and ecstasy, this does not hold 100% because there is a higher level of neurotoxicity associated amphetamine substitution and I'm not aware of the precise mechanism of action.

I've also noticed this same thing to be true in my case of gabanergic medications. This lies outside of the HPTA axis but demonstrates tolerance, down-regulation of gaba receptors, receptor ligands, and dependence with prolonged use. Again, I've never had my gaba levels assessed, but from a qualitative point of view, I do not notice any changes. The literature I've read does not make note of permanent neurological changes within benzodiazepam or barbiturate users within 6 months of cessation, so far as I'm aware.

And then there's testosterone. 4 months of exogenous administration can totally suppress HPTA axis and render the leydig cells significant less useful from anywhere to a little while to a lifetime. Granted, gaba is a neurotransmitter, a totally different chemical class from the hormone, but dopamine is a neuro-hormone. A peptide hormone rather than a steroid, but still a hormone.

I've thought about other biochemicals that fit the same sort of profile as testosterone, opioid receptor agonists and even estrogen analogues used for female birth control. They don't seem to work like testosterone.

After thinking about this, I've come up with 3 reasons why this may be:

1 - my examples don't hold because the biochemical's endogenous levels were not raised directly by exogenous administration, but indirectly through receptor modulation. At the end of the day both mechanisms result in the same thing - higher endogenous concentrations of the chemical in question - but the mechanism of action is different. I don't know if this is significant or not.

2 - The negative feedback component of the testicular portion of the HPTA axis is more sensitive than the other negative feedback components of the axis and of other biochemical mechanisms of concentration control.

3 - My examples are flawed because no biochemical levels were assessed before and after. Subjective feelings do not indicate real bio levels. I could be suppressed and not know it.

4 - Excessive levels of testosterone are either directly or indirectly toxic to a component of the HPTA axis, either as a result of the chemical itself, or as a result of an unknown metabolite of a chemical process in which it is involved. Another possibility is that a component of the HTPA axis is dependent on a product of the negative feedback pathway and when it is absent, so too is the necessary chemical.

What do you think?

 

[ebracer05]

a

 

[cashout]

Short answer, with long chain carbon chain esters (i.e. cyp and ent) there is a "built in taper" due to the extended half life.

500 mgs test cyp with an approximate 7 day have life reduces to non-supra physiological levels in about about 14 days.

500/2 = 250 after 7 days post last shot
250/2 = 125 after 14 days post last shot
at 125 mgs of active drug, one is approaching normal levels and that would be the most inappropriate time to begin Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) to stimulate natural test production. As long as the HPTA detects a supra physiological level of exogenous test, the hypothalamus and pituitary will not induce LH, FSH, and related hormone production.

Significant trial and error has borne support for the position that restarting the HPTA prior to allowing the clearance of supra physiological levels may result in a subsequent "crash."

Thus, the real issue is not prolonging the step down via a taper but recognizing that one needs to wait until they approximate normal test levels before attempting a restart.

No prob cashout. You've given an incredible amount of knowledge just in this one thread!

Do you know why no one recommends tapering AAS? Anytime a good doctor writes an rx for a drug that operates in a dose dependent way, especially when negative feedback is involved and the potential for dependence, it is always tapered. It just seems to make sense, at least to me. Tapering would slow the decline of supraphysiological levels of AAS in one's system and would give the HPTA more time to "un-suppress" itself physiologically.

If someone was on a 500mg weekly cycle of TE, ending the last 2-3 weeks of the cycle with 250mg, 150mg, and 100mg (or something like that) just seems like it would be easier on your system. Acute cessation would cause serum levels to drop much more rapidly than if on a taper, and at least in my thought experiment, seems like it would be harder on the HPTA axis. You would get less gains unless you extended the cycle to accommodate a taper, but would it be better for your system? If the serum levels were to drop more gradually, once testosterone levels reached physiological levels, there would be a significantly greater population of esterified testosterone resident in one's system, and therefore, levels would not continue to drop as quickly. Shouldn't this give the HPTA axis some "natural" time to restart the secretions of GnRH, LH, FSH, and finally, the almighty testosterone? Obviously, this wouldn't substitute for PCT, but especially if Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) were used on cycle and it even minimally stimulated the leydig cells, why wouldn't recovery be faster?

 

[BodybuilderX]

Thanks Cashout for the constructive feedback, I think my approach to Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG), Considering your philosophy of dosage and the testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) doctor's speculation, will be running 250iu 2x week throughout my cycle just to keep my testes still alive and functional and then do a smaller Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) blast of 1000-1500iu EOD 2 weeks after last pin for 10 days. Followed by Serms+AI, tapering down AI+serms for 4-6 weeks.

This seems like it would work.

Correct me if im wrong

 

[cashout]

I cannot say whether or not it would be effective as I've never tried it this way.

I would encourage you to have blood work done following so that you can confirm whether or not the protocol worked as you designed it.

Thanks Cashout for the constructive feedback, I think my approach to Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG), Considering your philosophy of dosage and the testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) doctor's speculation, will be running 250iu 2x week throughout my cycle just to keep my testes still alive and functional and then do a smaller Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) blast of 1000-1500iu EOD 2 weeks after last pin for 10 days. Followed by Serms+AI, tapering down AI+serms for 4-6 weeks.

This seems like it would work.

Correct me if im wrong

 

[ebracer05]

a

 

[UserAt204]

Guys use to taper off doses before serms were readily available. They would also pyramid the doses to start.

The problem is, your body doesn't naturally produce xannax or benzos or opioids. So it's a bit different. You body does produce the same hormones. I like to taper off, sort of. Lately I'm thinking run test 15-20 weeks, then reduce to a testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) dose over a 6 week period, lowering the dose each week, then into a full pct with Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) first.

Yes it means longer suppression, but it also means you are closer to normal levels when starting Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) blast. I don't believe there is any real difference in 10-20 weeks, it's all the same in terms of HPTA. Actually there are studies floating around showing males who were on AAS for years without coming off have healthier lydeg cells because they basically were dormant instead of the normal use and aging. Who knows if it's correct but I hope so.

 

[fxalco]

1) I'd wait 12-14 days after the last shot of Test E before beginning Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) - don't start the day after.

2) Start he clomid and nolva the same day - the day after the last Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) shot.

in this way the SERMs will begin almost 5 weeks after the last injection of TE (2 weeks stop+3 weeks HCG). is that correct?

3) You can use Asin but I recommend not to do so in post cycle therapy (pct) b/c it is a steroidal Aromatase inhibitor (AI) and has some androgenic affinity. I recommend Letro or Adex in post cycle therapy (pct) for that reason.

(What is "b / c" after PCT?)
ok, I would use Adex, but throughout the entire cycle? (testE + stop + Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) + SERM)

 

[cashout]

Again, I am not going to draw referential comparisons to other drugs because I don't know anything about those other substances.

I think, perhaps, that one premises you may be erroneously adopting is that test functions in a similar fashion to other drugs that you are comparing it to in terms of tapering.

I do understand what you are saying. In theory, the approach is well grounded but in practice the application it doesn't work.

As User204 mentioned in his post, the taper was common practice in the 1980s until Dr. Fred Hatfield and Dan Duchine introduced Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) and SERMs to the bodybuilding community. From that time we have learned a few things about recovery. The most important is the "threshold" of what is normal test levels.

Simply, there is a "threshold" that needs to be crossed in each individual regarding the approximation of normal physiological test levels. There is no improvement in recovery if we continue the tapering of test below the threshold of normal levels IF we restart the test production naturally. The reason is because we have learned that the HPTA has both positive and negative feedback loops built into the system. In recovery in otherwise healthy adult males, the presence of supra physiological levels of test is a feedback marker. Once the system recognize non supra physiological levels, the HPTA is ready and able to support normal endogenous test production. All the extended taper could possibly do is limit the restart and its fullest capacity for natural test production. Now, it may give a high dosage user the advantage of slowly withdrawing his doages and allowing him more time to acclimate himself to the low levels BUT it should not be extended below the point that approximates the normal test level.

Research has shown that in a very high percentage individuals, the threshold for approximation of normal levels occurs somewhere less than 200 mgs a week of test. That is an estimate of course.

I don't think I explained my idea of a taper very well... it was a bad example.

When I taper off of my medications, it takes at least a month, usually 2.

I take 40mg of Ritalin daily. An effective taper for me means decreasing the dose by 10mg once each week (a 4 week taper) or by 5 each week (an 8 week). I usually always do a 4 week taper with Ritalin because Ritalin is most commonly dosed in 10mg increments.

It's different with Klonopin which is normally dosed in .25mg-.5mg. I'm on 1.5mg and since I'm prone to experiencing anxiety sides if I taper too quickly, I usually go down .25mg per week for a 6 week taper.

Why can't we do the same thing with testosterone? Take a 12 week cycle at 500mg/week and begin tapering on week 13? I realize the esterification sort of builds a taper in to the testosterone molecule, but that's still way too fast IMO to be considered a taper. To put it in perspective, when an opioid addict goes in to a treatment center for cessation, it may take them a year or more to completely taper off of their medication. My dad has dually specialized in internal medicine and addiction medicine, so I hear all the time about the work he does at in-patient rehab centers for alcoholics, opioid addicts, and other soon to be former drug abusers. The best tapers are slow tapers.

That would be equivalent to a 2 week taper in the Ritalin example or a 2.5-3 week taper in the Klonopin example.

I know what the normal range of testosterone is in adult males but I have no idea how a specific mg sized injection translates in to an increase in the ng/dl blood serum concentration. And that would be necessary in order to gauge how to effectively taper. If testosterone works anything like dopamine, the long esters would be ideal for a taper anyways - in general, the shorter the half life of a drug, the more reinforcing it is to the system and the more intense the sides are when stopped abruptly. That's why (theoretically) it's easier to quit Valium than it is to quit Xanax (at bioequivalent doses). In fact, knowledgeable doctors will often switch patients who wish to discontinue a benzo with a short half life like Xanax or Ativan to a benzo with a long half life at a bioequivalent dose like Valium or Klonopin because the long half life makes it easier on the body to restore steady state baseline levels if tapered slowly.

I've never read anyone suggest this before, but why couldn't a 13 week post cycle therapy (pct) of SERMs be replaced instead with a very gradual 13 week taper? You would be feeding exogenous testosterone to yourself over an extended period of time and slowly enough for your HPTA axis to potentially retool itself on its own due to the progressive lessening of exogenous testosterone's negative feedback inhibition. In fact, 13 weeks might not be long enough. Who really knows?

I'm just throwing numbers out because, as I said, I don't know how the mass of testosterone injected affects it's blood serum concentration. But let's assume 150mg = baseline testosterone blood levels. If your testes completely shut down, 150mg of testosterone would restore your baseline levels (and I realize the range that constitutes normal covers about 600ng/dl, this is all purely hypothetical for the sake of conjecture).

Now suppose a person had run a 12 week TE cycle @500mg dosed at 250mg 2x/week.

What if post cycle therapy (pct) looked like this (again, assuming 150mg will leave you at baseline in the case of a complete shut down) where each TE injection is given in full, once per week on the first day of the week.

Blast Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) as normal. Then, assuming testosterone levels are no longer supraphysiological:

Week 1 - 100mg (starting below the 150mg threshold since the esters would "build up" and accumulate beyond the 150mg mark and re-reach supraphysiological levels. This also allows you to start this "PCT" at a testosterone deficit that is not tanked out, giving your pituitary a chance to start firing again on its own but still leaving you with a reserve of testosterone.)
Week 2 - 90mg
Week 3 - 90mg
Week 4 - 80mg
Week 5 - 80mg
Week 6 - 70mg
Week 7 - 60mg
Week 8 - 50mg
Week 9 - 40mg
Week 10 - 30mg
Week 11 - 20mg
Week 12 - 10mg
Week 13 - 10mg

I am sure I've not studied this segment of male endocrinology as much as you, but this just seems like it would work to me. Doctors would use this same line of thinking with any other medication. Why not here? Do you have any insight?

 

[cashout]

in this way the SERMs will begin almost 5 weeks after the last injection of TE (2 weeks stop+3 weeks HCG). is that correct?

Yes.


(What is "b / c" after PCT?)
ok, I would use Adex, but throughout the entire cycle? (testE + stop + Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) + SERM)

b/c = because

 

[cashout]

Guys use to taper off doses before serms were readily available. They would also pyramid the doses to start.

The problem is, your body doesn't naturally produce xannax or benzos or opioids. So it's a bit different. You body does produce the same hormones. I like to taper off, sort of. Lately I'm thinking run test 15-20 weeks, then reduce to a testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) dose over a 6 week period, lowering the dose each week, then into a full post cycle therapy (pct) with Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) first.

Yes it means longer suppression, but it also means you are closer to normal levels when starting Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) blast. I don't believe there is any real difference in 10-20 weeks, it's all the same in terms of HPTA. Actually there are studies floating around showing males who were on AAS for years without coming off have healthier lydeg cells because they basically were dormant instead of the normal use and aging. Who knows if it's correct but I hope so.

This is correct...

 

[jadakiss]

I'm Confused

 

[stige]

Big question.... From what I read i want to follow this way: 12 week cycle with 400 mg\week Test prop with Adex EOD at 0.25.... I want to keep cruise of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) at 500 iu a week... Keep 500 and then after 1 week of last test pin do the blast at 2000 iu /week for 5 weeks. Adex troghout all period and also Pct... But if I have to start post cycle therapy (pct) after Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) blast.. It mean more than 1 month after last pin of test??? Correct?? Tnks