Questions on esters and half lives

[bigdelt69]

I think we all know that each injection of an oil based steriod causes a depot at the injection site. The thing that I really dont get is this:

Does the ester make a difference in the release rate from the depot? Or does it just indicate how long it takes it to be cleved off in the blood stream?

I have been under the impression that once in the bloodstream the esterase enzyme cleaves off the ester quickly. So this would suggest that the longer the ester the longer it stays in the depot....Right?

Also I know that different injection sites ( ie the glutes, delts, bi's, ect...) can have an effect on the absortion rate of the esterfied hormone into the blood stream. So in a since can this have an effect on reaching peak blood levels?

 

[Annonamous1]

Bump 4 an answer

 

[zwarrior99]

Good question bump!

 

[ironmaster]

Really, esters serve 3 purposes.

First, esterifing steroids improves oil solubility, so useful doses can be dissolved in fewer cc's for injection.

Second, esterifing steroids improves oil solubility and decreases water solubility, so the transfer of steroid molecules from lipid tissue to fluid is slowed, increasing the half-life of the drug.

Third, adding carbon molecules raises the partition co-efficent (ratio between lipid and water solubility) as well. So the longer the ester, the higher the ratio...........and the longer lasting the steroid becomes.

This is over simplified, but I'd have to get out the books to explain it any deeper.

 

[turboguy1977]

bump, this is a good thread!!!

 

[bigdelt69]

So each extra carbon that is added make the oil and the substance inside the oil that much harder to absorb into the bloodstream...correct? I know that the steroid itself is inert untill the esterase enzyme cleaves off the carbon chain. So this makes me wonder if it does this a little bit at a time, which for long esters would create kind of an "IV" type drip into the blood stream. This would also mean that shorter esters would in a sence drip faster right?

 

[ironmaster]

Yes, that's a reasonable analogy. The esterase cleaving occurs only after the steroid passes from lipid to water and is a quick process, so the partition coefficient is important.

Also, the journey goes on for the steroid after binding and releasing from the AR receptor. It returns to serum and goes on to interact with receptors in the tissues of other organs, like the kidney......where red-blood cell creation occurs. And contrary to folk lore, all steroids cause red blood cell production, not just eq or anadrol.

It gets more complicated, because anabolic testosterone derivitives like deca work on a more complex cellular level than do androgens like testosterone. Deca and the like stay bound to muscle receptors 3 or 4 times longer than does testosterone. This also alters the timeline.

So really there are multiple considerations when it comes to the half-lives of steroids.....all having to do with esterification and the arrangement of carbon atoms and certain acids in the chemical makeup of the drug. This is why smart stacking can make a whole lot of difference in your cycle results.

I always match up agonists intead of antagonists........sometimes old ideas are still great ideas. This is why test/deca/dbol type stacks work for everyone. Because they release differently, bind differently, impact other tissues differently but in a synergistic way.

This was a good topic to suggest, bigdelt. The answers require us to understand the fundamentals of why steroids work the way they do.

 

[bigdelt69]

well put ironmaster

 

[bigdelt69]

BTW- so does this mean than even though deca releases at a slower rate due to the longer carbon chain it stays attached to the receptor for a longer period of time? I am curious to hear exactly how deca/dboll/test work in such a synergistic way.

 

[bigdelt69]

bump

 

[ironmaster]

Yes to your first question. Deca and other long chain esters not only release from lipid to fluid at a slower rate, but also bind longer to the androgen receptor.

As to your second question about synergy, I'll give you the simple answer first. ALL steroids are derivitives of synthetic testosterone and bind to the AR receptor. Some steroids have been bio-chemically engineered, however, to exhibit more anabolic properties and fewer undesireable androgenic side effects. Deca, primo, equipoise, masteron are examples of such drugs........and deca is the original. In tests, esterless deca exhibits 80% less effect on the growth of prostate tissue (bad stuff) and 240% more effect on growth of skeletal muscle tissue (good stuff) than does esterless testosterone.

So, combining testosterone with deca like drugs allows bodybuilders to significantly increase anabolic activity while lessening androgenic side effects......as compared to just using more synthetic testosterone.

So why do we need testosterone at all? Because some androgenic properties are highly desireable. Test is king when it comes to pure size and strength and only true androgens stimulate IGF-1 production.
IGF-1 acts on local skeletal muscle tissue to generate new cells and fibers. And we also want to keep that libido high, now don't we? No sense in being the big man that attracts the women if the equipment doesn't work.

Why the dianabol? Really, you could put in any other 17a oral steroid here to complete the stack. Orals add another dimension to the stack for 2 reasons. They act very quickly to increase size and strength, in effect kick starting the cycle while we wait for the slower esterified steroids to reach potent plasma levels. And they stimulate various growth factors through direct action in the first pass through the liver.

The complicated answer........I'm not even going there other than to say that increasing protein synthesis is not all that steroids do to cause muscle growth. Other factors effected are:

· Enhanced growth factor activity (e.g. GH, IGF-1, etc.)

· Enhanced activation of myogenic stem cells (i.e. satellite cells)

· Enhanced myonuclear number (to maintain nuclear to cytoplasmic ratio)

· New myofiber formation

Some steroids are better than others in one or more of these areas as well.......so we stack. And these are my reasons for selecting test/deca/dbol as the most time proven effective cycle stack for the intermediate trainer. This is NOT the most potent stack for advanced people, but 30 years of experience tells me it will yield good results for almost everyone, and is relatively safe as well.

 

[xtinct]

This is NOT the most potent stack for advanced people, but 30 years of experience tells me it will yield good results for almost everyone, and is relatively safe as well.

So, what do you think is the most potent stack for advanced people?

 

[ironmaster]

Suspension(1st 20 days) + 2 single ester testosterones + trenbolone cyclohexylmethylcarbonate + anadrol + winstrol + insulin + hGH.

 

[house1]

awesome thread guys

ironmaster, its good to have guys like you on these boards to help educate us .

kudo's to you