Anabolic Steroids Are never for teenagers!!?!?!? Anarchy

Fact: Most teenagers do steroids because they want to make their dicks bigger.






You should interview Bostin Loyd. His perspective will help sate your curiosity. He browses these boards, who knows which account is his though :)



P.S. Nothing makes me more depressed than bland food, yikes :thumbsdow
 
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I'll give you straight facts and things that i do know. Not going to post the literature, but it's there. Like you mentioned, growth plate sealing is a possible consequence of teenage steroid use. I believe the mechanism is the increase in estrogen which speeds up bone maturation. Maybe an AI will prevent this. I know in some northern Euro country, some tall boys opt for test injections to halt their growth. The other thing is that the brain is still very plastic and probably very sensitive to androgenic manipulation. The testosterone spike during puberty can literally change the way the brain grows. Probably because of DHT, it's what makes us men. Androgens have a very powerful psychological effect on people. Well-being, aggression, cognition, all tied to a couple of cholesterol side-cleaved hormones. There will definitely be effects that you will not see in a fully grown adult from using or abusing androgenic substances. I've named a few. It is a very taboo topic but i appreciated your scientific approach and will continue to discuss this with you here. Welcome to Steroidology.

Don or Dan hooton, he's a man who's judgement was clouded with grief who pointed the finger at steroids. I believe his son died as a consequence of coming off steroids and not being prepared for the endocrine and psycological rebound. It has been stated that his psycologist(someone obviously not qualified to give medical advice in this regard) had told him to stop cold turkey. Anyone who knows about post-cycle blues can start to get an idea of what this kid put himself through. He was also put on selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors. One of the side effects is suicidal thoughts. I think Mr.Hooton's heart is in the right place and he is plagued by the regret of losing his son and not being able to do anything, but as you said, he does not have the medical or scientific knowledge to come up with such bombastic conclusions about the consequences of steroid usage.

Hi again Black Beard,

I don't actually believe that the sealing of growth plates is possible through teenage abuse of the drug. It just isn't linked. The most I've found is that the tibial epiphyseal growth plate's reaction to direct implementation of testosterone has actually widened. But, nothing has actually sealed, meaning that growth will logically, and going by current science, will continue to take place.

I've never actually heard of people taking test specifically to hault their growth. Thats interesting. However, again, which my scientific approach there has been nothing to suggest it will or even can do this.

Also, I don't argue that effects will take place. My arguement is that of long-term effects. The undeveloped vs the developed body will usually always have effects from any drug, but in terms on long-term effect, it just isn't foreseeable in any studies that have been carried out, steroid-related and non-steroid related. The reason the higher risk factor has been set for a younger individual is purely out of common immaturity at the lower age.


Going cold turkey from any drug will have negative side effects, including depression, I do agree. However, the studies done on the drug he was prescribed (anti-depressants) will show that there is alot higher suicide rates being on that than coming off of steroids.

Thanks for the welcome, and contribution to my topic.


----

Just to add, in reference to a previous post about Don Hooton's studies. I have since contacted Mr. Hooton in regards to any direction to his studies and he has informed me he has no such studies, but only statistics of how many teenagers actually abuse the drug.
 
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http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/173825



It's right there...You aren't a doctor or scientist bro. You have a slight condescension in your tone of writing too. Don't assume because you haven't seen it, or your "scientific mind" doesn't agree with it, that it isn't so. I mean seriously, if i didn't know any better, i would say you are a teenager trying to get the green light on steroid use. Haha, regardless...there is your study. :vampire:
 
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:dance2:




ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/173825



It's right there...You aren't a doctor or scientist bro. You have a slight condescension in your tone of writing too. Don't assume because you haven't seen it, or your "scientific mind" doesn't agree with it, that it isn't so. I mean seriously, if i didn't know any better, i would say you are a teenager trying to get the green light on steroid use. Haha, regardless...there is your study. :vampire:

Thanks for the link.

The study is actually useless and not related to the argument. It states that the natural system returned to fully operational and the growth velocity was actually increased.

My argument was simple; a undeveloped body vs a fully developed body - is it more susceptible to long term side effects? Your study hasn't shown the comparison, nor have the subjects suffered anything long term. My argument still stands.

If I wanted a 'green light' from anyone it certainly wouldn't be a group of random guys over the internet.

And I could say the exact same to you. You aren't a doctor or scientist either. And, because your beliefs don't agree with it, that it is so.

Thanks for contributing.
 
Thanks for the link.

The study is actually useless and not related to the argument. It states that the natural system returned to fully operational and the growth velocity was actually increased.

My argument was simple; a undeveloped body vs a fully developed body - is it more susceptible to long term side effects? Your study hasn't shown the comparison, nor have the subjects suffered anything long term. My argument still stands.

If I wanted a 'green light' from anyone it certainly wouldn't be a group of random guys over the internet.

And I could say the exact same to you. You aren't a doctor or scientist either. And, because your beliefs don't agree with it, that it is so.

Thanks for contributing.

Yes, after discontinuation growth velocity came back, but in a few cases was decreased. So there is obviously an effect. Just because stopping gives you some chance at recovery, and as you can see, not always, does not mean it's useless. Don't be a moron. The effect is there. Steroids have an effect on the developing body, more so than a fully grown adult because the developing body is more sensitive to hormones, chemicals etc. It is a lot more receptive than a fully grown adult. There are studies linking things like pesticides to endocrine problems and development. You just can't say steroids have the same effect as if you were an adult if you use them correctly. That is not true, and it's not only common sense, but there is evidence to contradict that statement. That is your argument and it is a weak one, based on mostly your own opinion and nitpicking of studies and things you hear on the internet.
 
Yes, excellent maths old boy. Well done indeed.

I started at aged 11, prompted by a bodybuilding father. Who started even younger! Prompted by his bodybuilding father.

Now, on topic.. do you have any factual evidence stating otherwise to anything I've said that you care to share?

You're like the Drew Rosenhouse of this forum....instead of "next question", it's "Do you have any factual evidence stating otherwise to anything I've said that you care to share"? Lol.

Look man, I agree that some of the methodologies that a lot of guys still follow might be based on old/antiquated "bodybuilding truths" that haven't been substantiated. I agree with you on that. But, your tone is extremely condescending, and it makes people question what your real intentions are. You stated previously that you're trying to compile information from the steroid community in an attempt to address this grey area with factual evidence. I'd be very interested in hearing about your findings in that regard. I truly would. However, your credibility is suspect bc you're chiming in on a variety of topics with a huge chip on your shoulder. To top it off, there has been an onslaught of teens posting on this forum as of late with intentions to cycle, and you can tell by their questions that they are lacking severely in terms of their nutrition, training, and understanding of the compounds that they are ALREADY putting in to their bodies. When guys on here have offered these teens/young adults some constructive advice, they throw full on temper tantrums, and resort to name calling (among a few other things). It's like they're trying to check their parachute after they've already jumped.

Im sure I don't stand alone when I say this.....it's just a bit ironic with the timing of all of this....teens getting "scolded" on this forum bc they are making foolish/uninformed decisions and PRESTO! Here you are to "save the day". If you want to really get something out of your project, show a little humility and quit being such a full on prick.
 
Yes, after discontinuation growth velocity came back, but in a few cases was decreased. So there is obviously an effect. Just because stopping gives you some chance at recovery, and as you can see, not always, does not mean it's useless. Don't be a moron. The effect is there. Steroids have an effect on the developing body, more so than a fully grown adult because the developing body is more sensitive to hormones, chemicals etc. It is a lot more receptive than a fully grown adult. There are studies linking things like pesticides to endocrine problems and development. You just can't say steroids have the same effect as if you were an adult if you use them correctly. That is not true, and it's not only common sense, but there is evidence to contradict that statement. That is your argument and it is a weak one, based on mostly your own opinion and nitpicking of studies and things you hear on the internet.

Thanks again for replying,

I completely understand that stopping doesn't always ensure a safe, proportionate recovery for teenagers. But the exact same statement can be used for fully developed bodies. So yes, I agree the effect is definitely there.

The argument I hold is based of current studies and research, so I wouldn't say its a weak one. I have not nit-picked anything out of studies and the majority of it has came from books. I have gave an honest answer to everything being put to me, aswell as an honest opinion on the effects of any drugs in anybody. Abusing drugs is dangerous. However, in cases of steroids, if an appropriate cycle is done with good pct and the bits in between, the body should be promoted enough to make a safe recovery in most cases. Everything I'm saying is based off studies/research that I've read and is more than likely available on the internet.

Yes I agree, undeveloped bodies may be a bit more sensitive to chemicals/hormones etc. However, if its regulated and moderate, then it can adapt rather very quickly. On top of this adaption, you have pct and the bits in between to ensure a safe and healthy body. If it doesn't work that that particular person, then they should stop and get the appropriate treatment if necessary, notice age isn't a factor here.


BigGains said:
You're like the Drew Rosenhouse of this forum....instead of "next question", it's "Do you have any factual evidence stating otherwise to anything I've said that you care to share"? Lol.

Look man, I agree that some of the methodologies that a lot of guys still follow might be based on old/antiquated "bodybuilding truths" that haven't been substantiated. I agree with you on that. But, your tone is extremely condescending, and it makes people question what your real intentions are. You stated previously that you're trying to compile information from the steroid community in an attempt to address this grey area with factual evidence. I'd be very interested in hearing about your findings in that regard. I truly would. However, your credibility is suspect bc you're chiming in on a variety of topics with a huge chip on your shoulder. To top it off, there has been an onslaught of teens posting on this forum as of late with intentions to cycle, and you can tell by their questions that they are lacking severely in terms of their nutrition, training, and understanding of the compounds that they are ALREADY putting in to their bodies. When guys on here have offered these teens/young adults some constructive advice, they throw full on temper tantrums, and resort to name calling (among a few other things). It's like they're trying to check their parachute after they've already jumped.

Im sure I don't stand alone when I say this.....it's just a bit ironic with the timing of all of this....teens getting "scolded" on this forum bc they are making foolish/uninformed decisions and PRESTO! Here you are to "save the day". If you want to really get something out of your project, show a little humility and quit being such a full on prick.

Hi again,

You can suspect my real intentions all you like, haha. It doesn't stop me compiling information. However, I do think thats a tactic to stay from what we're trying to address here, because simply, you cannot address it with any approved studies/proven research. You just have old myths, as I understand. I'm not saying its WRONG, I'm saying it doesn't comply with current approved studies/proven research and so it needs addressing.

I agree that these teenagers seem completely clueless as to what exactly bodybuilding is, even before taking steroids. You should have a firm grasp of knowledge on training and nutrition before you start a cycle. I'm not debating that.

You state that the teenager has thrown a full temper tantrum when they don't get their way, with regards to the approval of strangers on them taking steroids.. but I can see this behaviour has brushed off on you, with name calling to me.. someone who questions your sources and the apparent knowledge that you so strongly preach. Alarm bells.

Anyway, I won't continue this further. I'm after solid, factual evidence, after all, isn't that what trying to educate others should be based on? Facts? Educating others based on beliefs is crazy, unless you state its your own opinion of the matter.
 
Thanks again for replying,

I completely understand that stopping doesn't always ensure a safe, proportionate recovery for teenagers. But the exact same statement can be used for fully developed bodies. So yes, I agree the effect is definitely there.

The argument I hold is based of current studies and research, so I wouldn't say its a weak one. I have not nit-picked anything out of studies and the majority of it has came from books. I have gave an honest answer to everything being put to me, aswell as an honest opinion on the effects of any drugs in anybody. Abusing drugs is dangerous. However, in cases of steroids, if an appropriate cycle is done with good pct and the bits in between, the body should be promoted enough to make a safe recovery in most cases. Everything I'm saying is based off studies/research that I've read and is more than likely available on the internet.

Yes I agree, undeveloped bodies may be a bit more sensitive to chemicals/hormones etc. However, if its regulated and moderate, then it can adapt rather very quickly. On top of this adaption, you have pct and the bits in between to ensure a safe and healthy body. If it doesn't work that that particular person, then they should stop and get the appropriate treatment if necessary, notice age isn't a factor here.




Hi again,

You can suspect my real intentions all you like, haha. It doesn't stop me compiling information. However, I do think thats a tactic to stay from what we're trying to address here, because simply, you cannot address it with any approved studies/proven research. You just have old myths, as I understand. I'm not saying its WRONG, I'm saying it doesn't comply with current approved studies/proven research and so it needs addressing.

I agree that these teenagers seem completely clueless as to what exactly bodybuilding is, even before taking steroids. You should have a firm grasp of knowledge on training and nutrition before you start a cycle. I'm not debating that.

You state that the teenager has thrown a full temper tantrum when they don't get their way, with regards to the approval of strangers on them taking steroids.. but I can see this behaviour has brushed off on you, with name calling to me.. someone who questions your sources and the apparent knowledge that you so strongly preach. Alarm bells.

Anyway, I won't continue this further. I'm after solid, factual evidence, after all, isn't that what trying to educate others should be based on? Facts? Educating others based on beliefs is crazy, unless you state its your own opinion of the matter.

I said I would be interested in your findings. I'm not steadfast to anything that hasn't been substantiated. All I'm saying is if you want more to take you seriously and chime in on the subject (or provide some info to what you've otherwise stated) it would be wise to to consider the tone in your comments for the reasons previously mentioned. I don't have any empirical studies, etc, debunking anything to what you otherwise have stated that I care to share. Mainly, I was commenting on why your brother (and other teens) may have gotten the impression that teenage steroid use is flamed on this forum. I have heard that growth plates can close prematurely, but you have that angle covered. Sounds like you know your stuff. Good for you. All I'm saying is if you approach each post with the tone that you have, people aren't going to take you seriously. After all, aren't you wanting feedback so you can compile your evidence?

Thank you for contributing :)
 
I have read a nice little post about AAS usage in young adult on, you woun't believe it.... Reddit on /r/steroids/. It is not a scientific study, but I think some side effects have been proven in some studies. I have no time now to browser for them but if needed I will look for them. The post has some very good points:
When you are under 21, your endocrine system is still developing. This should be obvious as you are still going through the end of puberty, getting acne, etc. During this time peroid, supplementing with extrogenous hormones is EXTREMELY DANGEROUS. There is potential for very serious and long term side effects to occur. I hear all the time some of these people saying that "I've stopped growing, so it's okay". No - it's not okay. There are many other potential side effects besides growth plates. Here is a list of a few.

1) Premature closing of growth plates. This one is the most known about. Even if you think you have stopped growing, there still is a potential for height increase over time. I have known people who are 18+ who have continued to grow in height. Scientists know that growth plates don't fuse completely in some cases until individuals are past 22. Don't be deterred just because you haven't grown taller in awhile.

2) Impotence. Supplementing with hormones while you are still growing can potentially cause PERMANENT impotence and fertility issues in teenagers. When you add testosterone, estrogen and a wealth of other synthetic androgens to your body it can cause problems with your normal testicular growth and function. Remember, some of these effects are more than just temporary.

3) Liver/Kidney Problems. I hear all the time teenagers say "Well my friends used it and they got big and nothing happened to them." Really? How do you know? Have they been to a doctor and had their liver and kidney values checked? I doubt it. Just because a person looks okay on the outside, doesn't mean that they could have a host of problems on the inside. Liver and kidney damage is nothing short of serious. This can occur even in people who are past their teen years.

4) Gyno or "bitch tits". I believe this using androgens in teens can really increase the risk of gyno. Gyno has been known to happen naturally in many teenagers because of already fluxating hormones. When you add more hormones to the mix, you dramatically increase the problems. Remember that once you have gyno, its very hard to get rid of unless you take the proper precautions up front.

5) Hair loss/acne/prostate aggrevation, etc. All of these can be increased and agrevated with external androgen use. Have you ever seen a 20 year old going bald? It's not pretty. Don't think it can't happen to you.

6) Brain function. It is well known that hormones play a role in development of cognative brain function. Adding external hormones when your brain is still developing could be a disaster waiting to happen. How can you know many years down the road there won't be problems?

Psychological Problems

Being a teenager can be difficult as it is. Getting used to your own body image can be hard if you feel you're different than everyone else. Many teenagers turn to bodybuilding to help improve that image, and that can be a very healthy thing. However, when a teenager becomes obsessed or is only after short term goals of getting ripped in 6 weeks then it can be a very serious problem when prohormones/steroids get in the mix.

1) Abuse. There is a high potential for abuse when individuals turn to prohormones/steroids when they aren't mature enough to handle them. Most of these individuals had these substances recommended to them by friends with erroneous data presented to them on how to use them and how they work. I have seen teenagers on this board claim to never come off cycles of Mag-10 and 1AD. There is no reason to abuse your body like that. Never coming off hormones can have even greater risks than using them for the short term, such as halting normal hormone production permantely. If you have a problem and want to discuss it with us, please post it.
 
Everything I'm saying is based off studies/research that I've read and is more than likely available on the internet.

I'm going to turn the tables on you and ask you to post your studies showing AAS doesn't effect development in adolescents.

Black Beard posted a study demonstrating how testosterone can reduce adult height, and also mentioned that estrogen has a part in closing growth plates, here is a study dealing with that:

Effects of estrogen on growth plate senescence and epiphyseal fusion

"Our data suggest that (i) epiphyseal fusion is triggered when the proliferative potential of growth plate chondrocytes is exhausted; and (ii) estrogen does not induce growth plate ossification directly; instead, estrogen accelerates the programmed senescence of the growth plate, thus causing earlier proliferative exhaustion and consequently earlier fusion."

We all know that steroid usage increases estrogen when not properly managed, so perhaps this is why steroid usage may cause early fusion of growth plates? Like Black Beard said, maybe usage of an AI would eliminate this risk and that connects to your theory that a properly done cycle may yield no ill effects regardless of age.

Chronic anabolic-androgenic steroid... [Psychoneuroendocrinology. 2000] - PubMed - NCBI

This study deals with hamsters and basically says that hamsters treated with AAS during adolescents showed an increase in aggression. This was caused by altering hypothalamic-arginine vasopressin expression. Now, obviously this is hamsters not humans, so it's not exactly a perfect comparison, but AVP has been linked to the mediation of aggression in humans:
http://www.psychologie.uni-freiburg.de/abteilungen/psychobio/team/publikationen/ProgBrainRes_08.pdf
"these results suggest that AVP may influence aggression by biasing individuals to respond to emotionally ambiguous social stimuli as if they were threatening or aggressive." So the possibility exists that if anabolic steroid usage during adolescence leads to an increase in AVP fibres, it could also lead that person being more aggressive into adulthood, which judging by several people I know that used steroids as a teenager, that would definitely fit even though most of them no longer use AAS.

Now by no means is any of this black and white proof that teens usage will make them midget basket cases, and like you say, effects will always vary from person to person, but at the very least I think these studies show that there is some basis for the claims of AAS effecting mental and physical development in adolescents.

My personal opinion is that regardless of medical effects, teenagers should not be using AAS. This is because the vast majority of teenagers are not in any mental position to be dealing with the complicated aspects of AAS. I'm not just talking about putting together a proper cycle and executing it properly. What I'm talking about is the general mindset and mentality of young people. You're around my age so for us, while our 18th birthday wasn't yesterday, it wasn't all that long ago. Think back to when you were a young 18 year old. I have never met you in my life, but I know with 98% certainty that you were a hard headed idiot. I know this because so was I, and so was every single person on this board, and if you dispute this, you're an idiot. Now I'm not saying that teens can't be extremely intelligent, productive members of society and extremely good people, but all of them are idiots, hell I'm still an idiot. It's just what teenagers do, they are all 10 feet tall and bulletproof, it's been that way forever and always will be. Beyond that though, the emotional roller-coaster that teens go through on a daily basis, and the stress and pressure that they are under, in my mind that is a bad place for steroids to be. I think every person on here who has done even one cycle will agree that an AAS cycle does effect you mentally, whether that be some aggression on cycle, depression during PCT or whatever. Obviously it isn't going to make you a complete nutcase and kill your family, however an unstable mind is no place for AAS. This is one place I do kind of agree with Don Hooton. Kids in high school are on the precipice of their entire life and a year can completely make or break their life, combine that with parents, teachers, friends and colleagues. Beyond high school, young adulthood is a generally stressful time for anyone, your life is likely completely different than it was just a few years before, mom and dad aren't there to save you anymore. Not only is there constant mental stress on teens and young adults, but it is also likely the first time they are having to deal with this type of stress. However that doesn't change from an adult, anytime there is a situation in your life that puts you in a bad place mentally, whether that be a divorce or whatever, I believe you should stay away from steroids.

What my long-winded post is trying to say is that I think the vast majority of teens can not deal with using AAS, and it is dangerous to say that it is safe to say that just because a few may be able to. Beyond that I'm not aware of any studies which have given supraphysiologic doses of steroids to adolescents, the most I have read of is 100mg/week, however there are several in which adults were given high doses. If you know of studies which gave high doses to children I would love to seen them, but until then I would be cautious of saying steroids are safe for teens.
 
Thank you for your very interesting reads, Dickey and SteelM. It seems as though there is a common view that steroids can mess people up at young ages, and again I'm not disputing that fact.

For what its worth, I'm trying to dig into this further in your favor. I still believe that steroids can only react the same way with steroids as a fully developed body. However, I do admit there is alot more going on in a teenagers body. Eg, growth plates still open, test is massive, still developing brain, still developing themselves emotionally etc etc. So, yes, they have got alot more to risk. But what exactly can be tampered with by the direct use of steroids? Well, I've got my eye on the emotional side of things. Psychological. Maybe I'm wrong, but everything I've studied this far suggests thats the only risk factor in terms of LONG term effects.

Everyone knows that everyone reacts differently to everything. There will be a minority of teenagers who suffer long term effects. There will be a minority of adults who suffer long term effects. I just don't see any real hard evidence that it won't. I feel that I've went too much into depth with regards to my beliefs and knowledge, as I only came here for studies users may have read or research. I wasn't after opinions, but I got them and I'm glad I did.

I just don't understand the big hoo-rah on this forum about teenagers taking steroids. If they are willing to do it properly, have a good pct and understand about the bits in between then I'd help them do it safely. I don't see an issue with it, from a personal point of view.

But again, thank you. They were good, decent replies.
 
I think besides the irreversible changes for the body there is a problem also regarding the finances and dedications.
For a steroid cycle to be effective and as safe as posbile you need A LOT of things, and they all cost money:
blood tests( before, during and after the cycle would be best), you need to know how to diet properly, you need every meal planed before.
Could a teenager do research on all compounds he uses during a cycle: steroid, AI, HCG, SERM and others. I seriously doubt that this would be true in most young adult males.

Simply put, they do not know theyr own body very well (nutrition, rest, response do different workouts etc.). It is difficult to have a very scheduled time to eat, pin, work out, rest. Every day for weeks/months/years.
This compined with the irreversible changes of a still developing body make steroid usage among teens a very bad ideea.
 
Pediatrics | Mobile

Regulation of Growth


Regardless of the evidence, it is also a morality issue. Why do kids under 18yo not get to smoke and under 21 not get to drink? Why just I be 18yo to die for my country in the armed forces if I'm ready to die at 16?

Regardless of what the evidence points to, and I'll look for further studies regarding this topic, I feel that most on this board view it as an issue of morality as well and for the same reason they're not telling someone who's 16yo to go out and smoke, drink, party, etc they tell the young guys not to use AAS.

One other factor to consider is how much do younger kids know about diet and training? Not much for most of them. Advising them to use AAS at such a young age before they learn the fundamentals IMO promotes the idea that AAS is the only factor to getting progress or it lends the kids to believe that Ineffective diet and training protocols are in fact effective and they blissfully remain unaware of the fact. Years down the road when normal dosages of AAS stop providing the desired outcome they'll rely on more and more drugs, higher doses, more extreme/dangerous drugs etc bc they don't know any better.
 
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Pediatrics | Mobile

Regulation of Growth


Regardless of the evidence, it is also a morality issue. Why do kids under 18yo not get to smoke and under 21 not get to drink? Why just I be 18yo to die for my country in the armed forces if I'm ready to die at 16?

Regardless of what the evidence points to, and I'll look for further studies regarding this topic, I feel that most on this board view it as an issue of morality as well and for the same reason they're not telling someone who's 16yo to go out and smoke, drink, party, etc they tell the young guys not to use AAS.

One other factor to consider is how much do younger kids know about diet and training? Not much for most of them. Advising them to use AAS at such a young age before they learn the fundamentals IMO promotes the idea that AAS is the only factor to getting progress or it lends the kids to believe that Ineffective diet and training protocols are in fact effective and they blissfully remain unaware of the fact. Years down the road when normal dosages of AAS stop providing the desired outcome they'll rely on more and more drugs, higher doses, more extreme/dangerous drugs etc bc they don't know any better.

:wackit:
 
you know.. this guy has gotten on my nerves twice today.. that's once too many
 
he just told a noob to get his protein from the cheese on a pizza....

then told another person to go read a nutrition book because he's ignorant

0_o
 
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