Deca and Nova? a no no?

[steve169872]

Does anybody have link to a study where nolvadex caused problems with decca?


It was posted in another thread that you shouldn't take DECA and NOVA together. But i have read in several other places that it Nova is taken with DECA.

Any Help would be great

 

[Teutonic]

I ain t no guru by any means..But the consensus seems to be nolvadex can exacerbate prolac. driven gyno w/deca.
It s no no...if I tried to splain at the molecular- drug interaction level I d really look stupid...again !

 

[Ythrashin]

Sadly, if you take progesteronic (I made that word up) steroids and use nolvadex, you may be at an increased risk for progesteronic sides, as nolvadex may increase progesterone receptors (Gynecol Oncol. 1999 Mar;72(3):331-6). So besides competing with estrogen at the receptor, these drugs both increase serum test levels, and both drugs may also alter blood lipid profiles. With regards to Clomid and Nolvadex, I’ve found some research that indicates that 20mgs of tamoxifen is equal to 150mgs of clomid for purposes of testosterone elevation, FSH and LH, but tamoxifen did not decrease the LH response to LHRH (Fertil Steril. 1978 Mar;29(3):320-7). Interestingly, Nolvadex can even be used in small doses just as effectively as larger doses, when it comes to sperm indices and spermatogenesis. (“Effect of lower versus higher doses of tamoxifen on pituitary-gonadal function and sperm indices in oligozoospermic men”. Dony JM, Smals AG, Rolland R, Fauser BC, Thomas CM.) So in this case, we can actually use much lower doses than the egregiously recommended 40-60mgs/day. 5mgs a day seems to be as effective as 20, with regards to basal or LHRH stimulated gonadotropin and testosterone response or the E2/T ratio (Ibid).

 

[Ythrashin]

ncreased susceptibility to gyno -

Tamoxifen is often used to combat gyno during cycle when “flare ups” occur. While tamoxifen may provide immediate inhibition of proliferation, and serve as valuable tool, it can actually increase future susceptibility to gyno.

This is caused by tamoxifen’s ability to up-regulate the progesterone receptor. (54-56) This can dramatically increase the chances of developming gyno in future cycles when utilizing progestin based anabolics such as Nandrolone (Deca) or Trenbolone (or any pro-hormone acting upon the progesterone receptor).

It is interesting to speculate. Is tamoxifen use directly related to the increased gyno occurrences seen with modern day steroid users?

From this article: Clomid and Nolvadex - The Dark Side

 

[Scarz]

Sadly, if you take progesteronic (I made that word up) steroids and use nolvadex, you may be at an increased risk for progesteronic sides, as nolvadex may increase progesterone receptors (Gynecol Oncol. 1999 Mar;72(3):331-6). So besides competing with estrogen at the receptor, these drugs both increase serum test levels, and both drugs may also alter blood lipid profiles. With regards to Clomid and Nolvadex, I’ve found some research that indicates that 20mgs of tamoxifen is equal to 150mgs of clomid for purposes of testosterone elevation, FSH and LH, but tamoxifen did not decrease the LH response to LHRH (Fertil Steril. 1978 Mar;29(3):320-7). Interestingly, Nolvadex can even be used in small doses just as effectively as larger doses, when it comes to sperm indices and spermatogenesis. (“Effect of lower versus higher doses of tamoxifen on pituitary-gonadal function and sperm indices in oligozoospermic men”. Dony JM, Smals AG, Rolland R, Fauser BC, Thomas CM.) So in this case, we can actually use much lower doses than the egregiously recommended 40-60mgs/day. 5mgs a day seems to be as effective as 20, with regards to basal or LHRH stimulated gonadotropin and testosterone response or the E2/T ratio (Ibid).

u gotta love the references - reps (after i spread some around))

 

[Ythrashin]

u gotta love the references - reps (after i spread some around))

Yeah, unfortunately that is the only write up I could find that had a in body citation. Everything else just gives the info without a reference...

 

[Conciliator]

From this article: Clomid and Nolvadex - The Dark Side

Eric makes conclusions in his article that are NOT supported by the references. The progesterone receptor is synthesized in response to estrogen, so estrogen causes the progesterone receptor to up-regulate. When estrogen is blocked, the progesterone receptor will down-regulate. Nolva is a SERM. In some tissues it acts as an estrogen (as an agonist) and in other tissues it blocks estrogen (as an antagonist). So in tissues where it acts as an estrogen, up-regulation of the progesterone receptor would be expected. Right? One such tissue is the endometrium (uterus) of women, which also happens to be highly sensitive to estrogen. It's no surprise that several studies have found that nolva up-regulates the progesterone receptor in the uterus. It acts as a weak estrogen in that tissue, which is already highly sensitive to estrogen. This is what Eric's article is actually talking about, though he doesn't tell you that every study he references is a study showing up-regulation in endomerial tissue. Just look at the references yourself.

But what about in breast tissue? There, nolva blocks estrogen (as an estrogen receptor antagonist). In research where nolva is administered to treat breast cancer, there are not uniform results. There’s some up-regulation, some down-regulation, and people who show no change in progesterone receptor levels. There is no clear effect from tamoxifen. Unfortunately, Eric makes the moronic conclusion that since nolvadex up-regulates the progesterone receptor IN ENDOMETRIAL TISSUE that "This can dramatically increase the chances of developming gyno." You can’t extrapolate from research in the uterus of women to the breast tissue of men, especially when nolva has opposite effects in each tissue.

 

[steve169872]

I am so confused!
Seems as Nov would just block the recp for the breast and if you were taking Deca how in the heck that make you have higher chance of it with Nov?

Just confused

 

[Teutonic]

Yeah..ythrashin s posts with references..good stuff..See...had I tried to splain I would have looked...well..stupid.
Steve...I would not take it....

 

[Biggin]

I never advise anyone to run Nolva whist one is on Deca, Tren, etc... Just run some Cabergoline and be done with it Imo.

 

[Ythrashin]

Why take Nolva during your cycle even if you arent taking a 19-nor? There are better options out there. Those options being a AI...Adex, aromasin and letro. Using Nolva to control estrogen is old school... Get with it man.

 

[Biggin]

Biggin don't need any of that, I just "Cruise".

 

[Ythrashin]

I never advise anyone to run Nolva whist one is on Deca, Tren, etc... Just run some Cabergoline and be done with it Imo.

Halleluja!

If we are talking about Prolactin induced gyno an Aromatase inhibitor (AI) wont do squat either. Caber,bromo or prami are your only options....

 

[Ythrashin]

Biggin don't need any of that, I just "Cruise".

How did your blitz cycle go? What you cruisin with Biggin?

 

[Biggin]

Had to end earlier than expected. Severly herniated my C-5 and C-6 on 12-1 of this month doing seated cable rows, go figure right. It's gonna be alright, doc has me on Medrol Dosepak and accupuncture for the next 3 weeks, pain is subsiding a little, but still have a ways to go, I will be rolling again real soon. Gonna add Deca 150mgs/week to my testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) dose from here on out as well. Cruising with the usual, Sustaplex and some Ambrowave Prop.

 

[Ythrashin]

Had to end earlier than expected. Severly herniated my C-5 and C-6 on 12-1 of this month doing seated cable rows, go figure right. It's gonna be alright, doc has me on Medrol Dosepak and accupuncture for the next 3 weeks, pain is subsiding a little, but still have a ways to go, I will be rolling again real soon. Gonna add Deca 150mgs/week to my testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) dose from here on out as well. Cruising with the usual, Sustaplex and some Ambrowave Prop.

Damn dude that sucks! Hopefully you heal up quick. You still on that GH? That should help recovery also... Gotta love that Ambrowave! I decided to do a little blitz cycle with it and that Winny/Aanvar mix I've had sitting in my stash....

 

[Conciliator]

Yeah..ythrashin s posts with references..good stuff..See...had I tried to splain I would have looked...well..stupid.

Not quite. He didn't write that himself. He cut and pasted it from AG Guys. He should have given credit and made it clear that it was a quote.

Also, how can you put any faith in what was written when they they admit they're making up the word "progesteronic" (instead of using the correct word "progestogenic" or "progestational")?

 

[Biggin]

Yeah, I'm gonna bump GH till the die I cross over. The Ambrowave Prop is spot-on and the smoothest Prop I've ran in a long time. U should see some good gains off that stash U bumpin fosho. I should heal rather quickly, gonna do whatever it takes to get back in the gym where I belong!!

 

[Conciliator]

I never advise anyone to run Nolva whist one is on Deca, Tren, etc..

I advise people that it shouldn't make any difference, that a SERM should work just fine to control estrogen while taking 19-nors.

 

[Biggin]

Not quite. He didn't write that himself. He cut and pasted it from AG Guys. He should have given credit and made it clear that it was a quote.

Also, how can you put any faith in what was written when they they admit they're making up the word "progesteronic" (instead of using the correct word "progestogenic" or "progestational")?

Ain't nobody looking to fuckin argue tonite bro, U can carry that shit back with U when U leave!!