DHT and gains

arby

Frank Zane
This is what Anabolic Extreme has to say about the anabolism of DHT. The author here claims that inhibiting DHT will diminish most of your gains:

Question: I'm losing my hair and have asked the question on several discussion boards as to whether finasteride will inhibit my gains. I want to use finasteride to prevent a chrome dome but don't want to hurt my gains either. What are hearing on the street about this?

Answer: Finasteride is a fantastic drug for saving your hair. I fully recommend it for this purpose!

I must warn you though that I'm hearing that it destroys nearly all of the potency of testosterone. I know a couple of guys taking nearly a gram of this potent steroid and making greatly diminished gains while using finasteride.

I first though that this was due to bogus testosterone but several reports like this came into me which made me think something was up. The first thing I did was check the research on the anabolic/androgenic potencies of testosterone and DHT.

I found something extraordinary!

All of the literature showed DHT to be 2-3 times MORE anabolic than testosterone but with the SAME androgenic potency. Believe it or not, DHT is a better, safer and more effective steroid than testosterone!

How is this possible? What about all the bad stuff on DHT? It seems that most of testosterone's actions are enacted by its conversion into DHT—both good and bad! Why does testosterone cause muscle growth? DHT! Why does testosterone promote hair loss? DHT! Unfortunately, testosterone converts to DHT in "androgenic" tissues (prostate, hair, skin) at higher rates than in other parts of the body. This makes testosterone have a very low anabolic/androgenic ratio. On the other hand, DHT added directly to the body cts uniformly in nearly all tissues and thus has a better ratio. There is not preferential action or conversion in "androgenic" tissues. When injected, testosterone is less potent than DHT because not all of it is converted into DHT. Per injected milligram, you will get much higher concentrations of DHT in your blood with injectible DHT rather than injectible testosterone. And remember, DHT is the active metabolite of testosterone!

Back to your question, finasteride will GREATLY diminish any gains from testosterone. Not all but most (because finasteride prevents only about 70% of the conversion into DHT). I know one person who used a complete inhibitor of DHT production and with 800mg of testosterone per week saw basically nothing. With testosterone, you can either have your hair or have your muscle but you can't have it both ways.

I know this is just one "opinion," but what literature do you think he is referring to?

Does anyone have any experience with DHT and test-only cycles?

RB
 
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I think DHT has been villified unjustly the past few decades. Whether it is the phrmaceutical industry's efforts to sell finasteride, or fallout from the radical feminism of the 1960's (when anything "macho" was deemd automatically evil), I don't know. Certainly it is strongly associated with hair loss. However, I am unconvinced it is the culprit in prostate morbidity. When test subjects were given DHT as their sole testosterone replacement therapy (TRT), NONE exhibited prostate complaints. In fact, many had reductions in prostate volume (I believe estrogen is the real problem, but that is another story).

Transdermal testostosterone delivery systems are more effective at curing erectile dysfunction than IM test cyp is, at the same induced serum testosterone concentrations, because they induce more DHT production.

I am a litle confused by a point made in the article, though. I don't know how they can say thet DHT and testosterone are equal in androgenicity.

Also, I don't know that muscles have DHT receptors. The gains could be created by DHT's effects on agression and pain tolerance.

Finally, i wouldn't use DHT injectable without adding at least 100mg per week of testosterone, to be sure to produce enough estrogen to keep you healthier.
 
5ar inhibitors can affect your gains but will not diminish most of your gains...

.."All of the literature showed DHT to be 2-3 times MORE anabolic than testosterone but with the SAME androgenic potency"..

That's wrong, DHT's binding affinity for AR is several times higher than binding affinity of test...

It's not an effective anabolic in muscle tissue because it gets deactivated by 3bHSD..

http://www.mesomorphosis.com/articles/pharmacology/enzymatic-conversions-and-anabolic-steroids.htm
 
Dang, hhajdo, once again, common sense rears its ugly head...

As I have said before, you are my favorite Moderator.
 
DHT helps regulate estrogen levels in men. That's why men on proscar or other DHT blockers are susceptable to getting gyno. That's also why supplementing with DHT gel (Andractim) can get rid of gyno. Inhibiting DHT is known to have sexual side effects. There is a ton of info on the internet about DHT. Here's one of 2 studies I have read saying that supplementing with DHT has no effect on the prostate:
http://www.natural-hrt.com/artman/publish/article_32.shtml

DHT will decrease your testosterone levels so I would not use DHT with test (see above link "serum concentrations of LH, E2, T, and SHBG decreased during DHT treatment"). I have a link to another website on my PC at work that says the same thing re DHT on test levels.

Another misconception of DHT is the role people think it plays in the prostate. I think that estrogen plays a bigger role in the prostate than DHT. See article below.
 
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Here's an article from Patric Arnold on DHT:

Anti – Estrogen effects of DHT

One important function of DHT in the body that does not get much discussion is its antagonism of estrogen. Some men that take proscar learn this the hard way – by developing a case of gynecomastia. By reducing DHT’s protection against estrogen in the body, these men have fallen victim to its most dreaded ramification – bitch tits!

How does DHT protect against estrogen? There are at least three ways that this likely occurs. First of all, DHT directly inhibits estrogens activity on tissues. It either does this by acting as a competitive antagonist to the estrogen receptor or by decreasing estrogen-induced RNA transcription at a point subsequent to estrogen receptor binding.

Second of all, DHT and its metabolites have been shown to directly block the production of estrogens from androgens by inhibiting the activity of the aromatase enzyme. The studies done in breast tissue showed that DHT, androsterone, and 5alpha-androstandione are potent inhibitors of the formation of estrone from androstenedione. 5alpha-androstandione was shown to be the most potent, while androsterone was the least.

Lastly, DHT acts on the hypothalamus / pituitary to decrease the secretion of gonadotropins. By decreasing the secretion of gonadotropins you decrease the production of the raw materials for estrogen production – testosterone and androstenedione (DHT itself cannot aromatize into estrogens). This property of DHT comes into particular utility when it is administered exogenously, and this is to be discussed in further detail in the next section.

DHT, estrogen, and the prostate

When it comes to sex hormones, few things are as misunderstood by the general consumer as the relationship of the prostate to DHT. The inaccurate and overly simplistic attitude that DHT is responsible for prostate hypertrophy, and even prostate cancer predominates amongst most people.

The real situation is, of course, much more complex. One must understand that there are marked differences between healthy prostate growth (developmental growth), prostate growth due to BPH, and cancerous prostate growth.

The first period of prostate growth, deemed developmental growth, is connected to puberty and the testicular secretion of androgens. This takes the prostate from its prepubertal dormancy to the normal sized, healthy, and functional prostate gland of an adult. During the early and mid adult years the prostate stays at this stage, despite the constant high levels of androgens in the body. However, if androgens are blocked in the body then the adult prostate will shrink in size. This can occur by castration, or even by blockade of 5-AR (recall that DHT is the active androgen in the prostate).

Later in life, there is often a second stage of growth. This growth is deemed benign prostate hypertrophy (BPH) and this growth occurs in a wholly different hormonal environment than that of developmental growth. Evidence is mounting that the existence of a high estrogen / androgen ratio – a condition common in older men – is highly correlated to the development of BPH.

Experimental studies have shown the inability of androgens with saturated A rings (DHT related) to induce an initial condition of prostate hypertrophy. These compounds are non-aromatizable. Aromatizable androgens on the other hand, such as testosterone or androstenedione can induce hyperplasic modifications of the prostate of monkeys, but these effects are reversed by the addition of an aromatase inhibitor.

So apparently, estrogen is a causative factor in BPH or, probably more accurately, estrogen in the presence of a minimum, permissive amount of androgen.

None of this may come as news to many of you, but I bet that very few of you know that DHT can actually be used to treat BPH!! How can it do that? It basically does this by replacing the testosterone in the body, which then has the effect of reducing the amount of estrogen in the body. As I started to explain before, DHT is a strong androgen that will signal the pituitary to decrease the production of gonadotropins. The decrease in gonadotropins will then cause less testosterone to be produced which will in turn cause the estrogen levels to drop. The resulting change in the hormonal milieu (high DHT, low estrogen) then apparently results in a regression of BPH.

The clinical application of this theory is discussed in US patent 5,648,350 "Dihydrotestosterone for use in androgenotherapy". The following illustrates the results:

"In 27 subjects in which the plasma DHT level was controlled, so as to modulate the administered doses, said levels have been increased to 2.5 to 6 ng/ml. There resulted a decrease in gonadotrophy as well as in the plasma levels of testosterone which exceeded at least 1.5 ng/ml (from 0.5 to 1.4 according to the case); as to the estradiol plasma levels, these decreased by 50%.

Among this group of subjects, the volume of the prostate diminished significantly, as was evaluated by ultrasound and by PSA (Prostate Specific Antigen). The mean volume of the prostates was from 31.09.+-.16.31 grams before treatment and from 26.34.+-.12.72 grams after treatment, for a mean reduction of 15.4%, the treatment having a mean duration of 1.8 years with DHT (P=0.01)."

This kind of flies in the face of the traditional thinking concerning BPH now doesn’t it?

Conclusion

People have a natural tendency to classify things as either good or bad, with no gray areas. DHT (like estrogen) has recently been on everyone’s bad list, and is often considered to be a hormone that serves no function in the body except to cause harm. As you can see, this view is far from the truth. In my opinion, the widespread use of 5-AR inhibitors such as Proscar as a prophylactic agent for people that really don’t need it should be reconsidered. So give DHT a break. I now pronounce June "DHT Appreciation Month". Thank you.

by Pat Arnold
 
That's good stuff. Remember, boys: DHT is your FRIEND.

I have successfully treated men who complain of erectile dysfunction by simply tossing out the saw palmetto or finsateride they were taking. When I see it on their med list, but their medical history shows no difficulty in urination or hair loss, I ask them why they were taking it. They say: "because someone told me it is good for the prostate".

I could just choke those scumbags who run those informercials touting saw palmetto as being good for "prostate health", that everyone should buy and use it, in absence of prostatic symptoms. This is different, of course, from using beta-sistosterol.

I would caution, however, from driving estrogen too low. Once again, we cannot label somethiing as all good or all bad. That is why I would add some testosterone (sorry, TESTinME, but this is the way it is) where DHT supplementation is being used to the point of totally inhibiting LH production. You need estrogen, too.

Yes, let's all celebrate June in this way!
 
SWALE said:
That's good stuff. Remember, boys: DHT is your FRIEND.

I would caution, however, from driving estrogen too low. Once again, we cannot label somethiing as all good or all bad. That is why I would add some testosterone (sorry, TESTinME, but this is the way it is) where DHT supplementation is being used to the point of totally inhibiting LH production. You need estrogen, too.

Yes, let's all celebrate June in this way!

I agree, you don't want estrogen levels to be too low....I just wanted to point out what DHT does as a lot people don't understand it. I saw post from someone claiming saw palmetto prevented gyno which is rediculous (if you follow the above info, the opposite should be the case....).

My point to the original poster is that DHT will lower your own testosterone levels. It will also lower your estrogen levels. Supplementing DHT will not make your cycle more effective...It may increase strength gains because of it's effect on the central nervous system.

Proscar, Saw Palmetto bad, DHT good! haha. DHT gel (andractim) is great for gyno (got rid of mine anyway).
 
so is it safe to say that you just have to make the decision to "have the muscles or the hair" if your already prone to male patern baldness?
 
Thanks for the responses guys. I did an exhaustive search and noticed that hhajdo had answered that same question before... so thank you for answering it again. :D

It seems that topical is the way to go for sure. There are just so many on the market that I'm not sure which to use.

I read somewhere that minoxidil is not effective in the frontal area of the top of the head. I have only frontal-temporal recession (without Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) use) so that's out of the question for me. I can't get information on whether or not the other products work in that area, so I would appreciate some advice.

As of now, spironolactone, saw palmetto, and azleatic acid, in that order, look like the best topicals. I'm probably going to order some spiro along with some nizoral and start using those as well as popping the proscar tabs (30 of which I already ordered) on the first sign of hair loss. I don't want to stop my cycle because of it, and I'm hoping that the "lag-time" usually seen with finasteride use is caused by the slow rate of growth of hair and not because of an inability to largely inhibit DHT production.



RB
 
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DHT inhibiting stuff will only lower the androgenic efficacy of juice. The anabolism should be unaffected, right?

A plus of using finasteride/proscar/saw palmetto is i don't think you'll get as much/any body hair on juice.
 
I was looking into topical dutasteride and finasteride as well. However I found on the medicalwellnesscenter.com forum that any dutasteride use overwhelmingly results in a shedding in the frontal-temporal of the top of the head, even if there is some regrowth at the vertex. This, in turn, suggests that the mechanism for hair loss is shifted once DHT is completely inhibited, perhaps to testosterone itself. That's something that I don't need to bother worrying about right now.

It seems that in any topical solution, the vehicle for subcutaneous delivery has to be a liposomic solution. This promotes localized instead of systemic absorption. I would appreciate an opinion on the validity of this claim but, if it's true, then I can only find two sources of liposomic finasteride (it looks like the same product) and they are both prohibitively expensive.


RB
 
i know its old but it looked like a good discussion.

i was on propecia for 3 years and within 3 months of using it my prostate started hurting and remained swollen for the durration that i took propecia. i feel that it was pretty effective at keeping hair on my crown and minoxidil worked wonders for MY temporal hairloss. propecia also eventually killed my sex drive. i have been off for about a year and things are slowly returning to normal. i have tried 5% topical spiro cream, 2% topical spiro, 5% xanadrox, 2% nizoral and prescription strenght proxaphen.

most would still consider me to have a full head of hair but still feel that im fighting a loosing battle. the above products are from dr. lee and dr. proctor...

i attribute some recent hairloss to 1% androgel. i have recently started gh and wonder what it will do for my hairline. i currently use 5% spiro cream and 5% xanadrox and have considered restarting propecia at .25mg ed which is 1/4th the normal dose.

would love to hear more opinions....
 
slicli: hgh is nothing but good for your hair :)

But proscar works miracles for me..I dont use it for hairloss issues (perhaps when Im on cycle) but seriously the shit makes my life better...Im calmer \ dont get as angry over small details etc. I had some serious problems with agression before I started proscar...and it took my beginning chest hairs away! (only thing that sucks is that I cant get a full face of beard on the stuff :D )

no reduction in sex drive or libido noticed...only thing that sucks is that sometimes my balls ache...just for 10 seconds or so every week but its there...its a small price to pay for my wellbeing I think :)
 
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TESTinME said:
I saw post from someone claiming saw palmetto prevented gyno which is rediculous (if you follow the above info, the opposite should be the case....).

Not that ridiculous if you take into account these facts:

1) 5AR blocking properties of Saw Palmetto are prostate tissue specific.
2) Saw Palmetto acts as an anti-estrogen in the prostate tissue. Hence it MIGHT as well act as an anti-estrogen elsewhere in the body. More research needs to be done in order to determine the latter.

Cheers.
 
arby said:
This is what Anabolic Extreme has to say about the anabolism of DHT. The author here claims that inhibiting DHT will diminish most of your gains:



I know this is just one "opinion," but what literature do you think he is referring to?

Does anyone have any experience with DHT and test-only cycles?

RB

I think that, at anabolic extreme, they were just trying to be ironic ... in fact, I kind of remember that that article was about "myths".
If it's not ironic, then it's the biggest load of misinformation I've ever seen in my life.
 
DHT and facial hair...

Hello,

dear DHT lovers could you please inform me if you noticed any facial or body hair increase via using Andractim or did anyone of you used it to that purpose by rubbing it directly to the face or chest?

The same for Androtiv (T gel) and/or other similar gel (eg. Androgel etc.).

Thanks for any reply,
Cheers/Bye-George
 
George Beautepost said:
Hello,

dear DHT lovers could you please inform me if you noticed any facial or body hair increase via using Andractim or did anyone of you used it to that purpose by rubbing it directly to the face or chest?

The same for Androtiv (T gel) and/or other similar gel (eg. Androgel etc.).

Thanks for any reply,
Cheers/Bye-George

To be honest, I think you are the first persoon I have come across that uses DHT gel (Andractim). Do you have little facial hair growth, and are you hoping that the Andractim will help that problem?
 
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