F*ckin with Andromass - An unbiased mini log + review

[Primordial Performance]

fair enough. but what are the blood tests going to show? I understand the need to show that health isn't being compromised via liver damage, increases in estrogen, etc. But that raises two points.

1. We keep getting told that blood tests won't show any increase in test levels, which i can almost guarantee that any person, well, an intelligent person not some newbie that would believe anything he reads, would be more interested in knowing that there was an increase in test levels moreso than their liver values or estro levels being elevated.

2. How can blood tests show those things, elevated or not, yet not show an increase in test levels. Physiologically there should be no difference. I'm sorry but just saying because you use two types of DHEA and those should equate to xxxx amount of test is not enough science to prove anything. Again, maybe to a young guy who doesn't understand how this works and just wants bigger biceps for the summer, but for the average person with any significant amount of knowledge, this won't fly. Again, i have read what your site says, and your reps have given their thoughts on this, but you have to see the contradiction here, especially after you stating what you did above.

Thanks for your quick responses by the way. i have to agree with Glub, whether they make sense or not, you guys are quick to respond with some sort of answer.

Jason

Jason,

Estrogen will fluxuate to some degree, but it wont reach an unfavorable ratio with test levels. If test doesnt increase, then neither will estrogen.

Androstenediol and 1-androstenediol are the primary steroids doing the work with AndroMass, and neither of these convert directly to estrogen. The 3-ol needs to be oxygenated to interact with aromatase. Just based off the chemistry we know that estrogen wont disproportionately increase over testosterone.

Again, the total equivalent claim is based off the total androgenic/anabolic effect of the primary metabolites of 1-DHEA and 4-DHEA. It really has little to do with the T conversion, since these hormones have very little conversion to T.

-Eric

 

[Primordial Performance]

Ok a few things here:

1) I don't own my blood tests. The team does (they practically own ME lol). However, like I previously mentioned, if you guys are willing to sign the confidentiality agreements and some form of compensation of salary agreement in case the information is leaked, I don't mind asking for permission to have them released to you if you think they'll be helpful in studying the effects of your own product. I can't guarantee the team will approve though. I think they keep the copies of all tests from the previous 16 months or so.

2) I'm no scientist. I did, however, get a BS in Math and MS in Stats. So I know what an experiment is. Calling my log "uncontrolled" and "obscure" is silly imo. I'm not some random jackass logging your product like 95% of the other dudes. I'm a well respected member of this board.....and I didn't buy that respect.....

The ONLY thing being tested was YOUR product. How is that "uncontrolled" or in any other way unsatisfactory or obscure? I understand you didn't want to see that many side effects, but it doesn't change the fact that it happened and the only variable was Andromass.

3) Why are you referring to my experience as "supposed"? Because it wasn't positive? You then go on to make that last comment in bold. You're saying other logs are more legit than mine because they produced the results you wanted?

Not gonna lie. I'm offended. I think it's total bullshit.

I ended the log in a respectful way without accusing PP or your products of anything. Now you're trying to discredit my log. I don't appreciate that at all.

Either way, I'm done with this log. I won't bother checking back for excuses and defense.

I wish I could have made some comments about the actual results from your product. Unfortunately, I didn't get that far. I can, however, comment with certainty that Andromass is NOT "side effect free" as you claim.

The side effects I experienced, ESPECIALLY the blood pressure, I've never had before when coming off a cycle. Now, I've only been running steroids for around 10 years so maybe you know more than I do about my own body.


Again, I thank those PP reps who took the time to support my log AND respond in a professional manner without trying to discredit me in some bullshit manner. Most of you have proven you're a class act. And, as I previously mentioned, you guys don't get enough credit for that.


Good luck.

The reports in this log are akin to someone increasing protein intake and loosing muscle, strength and size – while seeing a detriment to every aspect of their health. Its contrary to all logical explanation, so I insist that something else was at play here.

You recently came off a massive cycle, to a lower maintenance dose, and then immediately into the AndroMass. Many questions come to mind. Where you using an anti-estorgen during your Testosterone injections? Are you still using an anti-estrogen? Where using any other substances during the testosterone injects that you discontinued prior to starting AndroMass? Any other drugs or medication with the AndroMass?

This really is no “disrespect” to you. You happened to notice no positive effects, with only negative effects. I’m simply calling out the obscurity of it. (For instance, increased BP generally coincides with increased blood volume, weight gain and strength, not fragility as you reported)

If you are willing, I’d like to see a complete list of drugs, medications and supplements used along with your test results over the past 6 months. I’d be fine signing the papers you need signed. Please email me – eric@primordialperformance.com

Thank you.

-Eric

 

[Weez]

Shit...So it sounds like I shouldnt take this stuff?

 

[THE-DET-OAK]

Im wondering why its not possible for his E to rise due to the cyp inhibition. there are plenty studies saying grapefruit in high doses inhibit 3a4 hepatically, and 1a1 and 1a2.

regardless of his T levels, some WILL be converted to estrogen. and if clearance is slowed, you will get a build up. thats just plain and simple.

Also to think that liver values can not rise, when those enzymes are inhibited hepatically, does not make sense to me...........

your blood pressure can definitely rise from decreased liver function as well, its called portal hypertension.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portal_hypertension

you will see this under cause's ^^^^^ there.

 

[THE-DET-OAK]

Shit...So it sounds like I shouldnt take this stuff?

its like anything else we do, you have to weigh the positive's and negatives, ANYTHING that works will have some on each side.

 

[Rougen123]

Can't believe I missed out on this, glad I came across it. Good read bro's

 

[Good Grip]

Can't believe I missed out on this, glad I came across it. Good read bro's

Sup Rougen, yeah this log had epic written all over it and im sad to see it end this way.

To Glubgawd, I wish this would've worked out for you in every way and I hope you didnt have to end it for various reasons. Good luck in all your future endeavors.

 

[cheppallet]

The reports in this log are akin to someone increasing protein intake and loosing muscle, strength and size – while seeing a detriment to every aspect of their health. Its contrary to all logical explanation, so I insist that something else was at play here.

You recently came off a massive cycle, to a lower maintenance dose, and then immediately into the AndroMass. Many questions come to mind. Where you using an anti-estorgen during your Testosterone injections? Are you still using an anti-estrogen? Where using any other substances during the testosterone injects that you discontinued prior to starting AndroMass? Any other drugs or medication with the AndroMass?

This really is no “disrespect” to you. You happened to notice no positive effects, with only negative effects. I’m simply calling out the obscurity of it. (For instance, increased BP generally coincides with increased blood volume, weight gain and strength, not fragility as you reported)

If you are willing, I’d like to see a complete list of drugs, medications and supplements used along with your test results over the past 6 months. I’d be fine signing the papers you need signed. Please email me – eric@primordialperformance.com

Thank you.

-Eric

ok, so lets assume, simply because i doubt this guy will check this log again as he said, that he wasn't taking anything with the AM.

So he had come off of his cycle, the test had cleared, and he was taking nothing but the AM, whats your answer then? You are speaking in hypotheticals so i will if that is what you need to get a straight answer.

Obviously no smart businessman is going to openly admit his product is bogus, but at least admitting that something could potentially be wrong, even if it was the high dosing issue, it needs to be addressed. I'm sure the young guys who don't know better will spend their money on this stuff, but for someone like me, who has a brain, and wanted to actually try it, i woudl like to know.

You still aren't giving any straight answers. Assuming that everyone who uses your product is starting on the same playing field would be ignorant to say the least, and i would think addressing any different things beforehand would be the smart approach at least from a business liability standpoint don't you?

Jason

 

[FL3X MAGNUM]

Jason, the predictions of AndroMass' results were made off of testing done on two seperate 3 cap servings a day. I don't think they planned for a 15 cap/day cycle.
Glub mentioned in the beginning that he was expecting things that probably wouldn't normally be seen at 6 caps/day, and also stated he wouldn't recommend trying what he's doing, as it was strictly on an experimental basis.

It is unfortunate that he didn't see the results he was hoping for, but that does not mean that other users won't see positive results from a cycle of AM.

I notice there seem to be a few people in this log who are now scared away from trying AM. I hope they aren't writing this stuff off as some secretly toxic PH now that they've read the feedback given here, as I doubt they will see such serious sides at 6 caps a day, which was the tested and recommended daily serving.

I also saw something about people purposely not reporting negative sides? I for one wouldn't hesitate at all to comment on whatever negativity I saw, during any log I was running. I am very open and honest when I run a log, because I want to help people who are curious about whatever product it is I'm running. I assume most other loggers are doing the same. After paying such a high price for a new product, I can't justify anyone wanting to blow smoke up a PP rep's ass in hopes for some positive outcome, it just wouldn't make any sense. Therefore I am assuming the majority of the logs out there for AM or any of the AndroSeries products are legit and straight to the point, no sweeping under the carpet as you say.

With that being said, Glub, thanks for putting yourself out there with this ballsy experiment lol. I was definitely staying tuned!

 

[Primordial Performance]

ok, so lets assume, simply because i doubt this guy will check this log again as he said, that he wasn't taking anything with the AM.

So he had come off of his cycle, the test had cleared, and he was taking nothing but the AM, whats your answer then? You are speaking in hypotheticals so i will if that is what you need to get a straight answer.

Obviously no smart businessman is going to openly admit his product is bogus, but at least admitting that something could potentially be wrong, even if it was the high dosing issue, it needs to be addressed. I'm sure the young guys who don't know better will spend their money on this stuff, but for someone like me, who has a brain, and wanted to actually try it, i woudl like to know.

You still aren't giving any straight answers. Assuming that everyone who uses your product is starting on the same playing field would be ignorant to say the least, and i would think addressing any different things beforehand would be the smart approach at least from a business liability standpoint don't you?

Jason

I've seen guys administer 1000mg/week injectable testosterone enanthate (verified) and report no gains, yet other guys will blow up on it. This sort of thing happens sometimes without any explanation.

Maybe he had a virus, insufficient sleep, something in his diet, who knows. I honestly have no idea what happened here. This is the first case of someone reporting these kinds of effects. If it happens again we will have something to be more concerned about. In the meantime, users continue to gain weight with significant strength and recovery gains. (without any significant change in liver values or estrogen levels)

-Eric

 

[cheppallet]

Jason, the predictions of AndroMass' results were made off of testing done on two seperate 3 cap servings a day. I don't think they planned for a 15 cap/day cycle.
Glub mentioned in the beginning that he was expecting things that probably wouldn't normally be seen at 6 caps/day, and also stated he wouldn't recommend trying what he's doing, as it was strictly on an experimental basis.

It is unfortunate that he didn't see the results he was hoping for, but that does not mean that other users won't see positive results from a cycle of AM.

I notice there seem to be a few people in this log who are now scared away from trying AM. I hope they aren't writing this stuff off as some secretly toxic PH now that they've read the feedback given here, as I doubt they will see such serious sides at 6 caps a day, which was the tested and recommended daily serving.

I also saw something about people purposely not reporting negative sides? I for one wouldn't hesitate at all to comment on whatever negativity I saw, during any log I was running. I am very open and honest when I run a log, because I want to help people who are curious about whatever product it is I'm running. I assume most other loggers are doing the same. After paying such a high price for a new product, I can't justify anyone wanting to blow smoke up a PP rep's ass in hopes for some positive outcome, it just wouldn't make any sense. Therefore I am assuming the majority of the logs out there for AM or any of the AndroSeries products are legit and straight to the point, no sweeping under the carpet as you say.

With that being said, Glub, thanks for putting yourself out there with this ballsy experiment lol. I was definitely staying tuned!

this isn't about if there are positive results and I'm glad you are enjoying it. AM and all of their products could provide amazing results, but if there are negatives, they need to be addressed. This is about not accepting that there could be such negative results from the product.

Look, plenty of products are brought to market and never go anywhere. 9/10 its usually because of a lack of response or concern by the company if there is a problem. This happens with toys, drugs, food, etc.

Again, what you are saying may be true, but that is not the question here. This pro football player, with everything he needs at his disposal, took away every variable and the only one left was the AM, and this is what happened.

Eric is claiming it couldn't have been the AM and talked about needing a more controlled environment, which is what i don't understand. How much more controlled could it be? And if him saying he needed blood tests and past test history to really evaluate this properly, don't you think that should be indicated somewhere within the product spec?

You can't put out a product that could have detrimental effects on your health and assume it won't happen. You also can't put out a product without a few what ifs, unless you didn't know the what ifs could happen (which is why you test, test, and re-test ALL scenarios possible). You can't just say "make sure you don't take 15 pills a day", because as we all know, most guys who take this sort of thing think more is better. And you certainly can't ignore the results of this test by blaming something else that literally had nothing to do with the experiment.

well, you can, but you won't be in business long. No one is asking him to say his product is defective, just saying that some things should be considered as possible negatives before some young kid without the resources glubgawd had gets seriously hurt.

 

[cheppallet]

I've seen guys administer 1000mg/week injectable testosterone enanthate (verified) and report no gains, yet other guys will blow up on it. This sort of thing happens sometimes without any explanation.

Maybe he had a virus, insufficient sleep, something in his diet, who knows. I honestly have no idea what happened here. This is the first case of someone reporting these kinds of effects. If it happens again we will have something to be more concerned about. In the meantime, users continue to gain weight with significant strength and recovery gains. (without any significant change in liver values or estrogen levels)

-Eric

ok, thats sort of an answer. So if i took the exact same amount glubgawd did, and the same thing happened, what exactly does concerned mean?

listen man, I'm not trying to get you to admit your product is bunk. I'm just saying people will see this and wonder. Especially when the owner suggests "getting back on his maintenance test dose and then see what happens" as a solution.

Hell, why even take a PH if i need to be on injectable test? See what I'm getting at here?

I think acknowledgement of a possible issue, even if its a simple change to your packaging that says "exceeding the maximum suggested dose may have adverse effects", would be a step in the right direction.

When i was still competing before my accident, i did studies and tested numerous supplements such as yours, and this was always at the forefront of the marketing depts. mind.

The last thing you want is some kids mom suing your company claiming her kid died due to elevated liver values because he toook more than suggested.

unfortunately, saying he should have known better won't work. you'll end up broke... or possibly in jail. It happens.

I'll leave you alone as it seems you are set in your ways, so good luck. Hope you don't get hit with any liability issues.

jason

 

[FL3X MAGNUM]

I see where you're coming from Jason, it is a logical assumption.
The only thing I want people to understand is that just like on the back of an ibuprofen bottle, there is a daily dosage recommendation, and it says not to exceed dosage. Glub was aware of the recommended dosage and exceeded it for his own curiosity, and was not doing so blindly. Think back to when tren orals got a bad wrap after someone went way over the recommended dosage for well over the recommended cycle length and ended up dying. I get what you mean with kids thinking more is better, but it's kind of their own fault for not acknowledging the cautions in place, and I don't feel that it is the company's responsibility when there is negative outcome from not following the directions. At least it doesn't look like Glub plans on taking anyone to court lol.

 

[cheppallet]

I see where you're coming from Jason, it is a logical assumption.
The only thing I want people to understand is that just like on the back of an ibuprofen bottle, there is a daily dosage recommendation, and it says not to exceed dosage. Glub was aware of the recommended dosage and exceeded it for his own curiosity, and was not doing so blindly. Think back to when tren orals got a bad wrap after someone went way over the recommended dosage for well over the recommended cycle length and ended up dying. I get what you mean with kids thinking more is better, but it's kind of their own fault for not acknowledging the cautions in place, and I don't feel that it is the company's responsibility when there is negative outcome from not following the directions. At least it doesn't look like Glub plans on taking anyone to court lol.

actually it is the company's responsibility flex. just like you said in bold above, ibuprofen bottles say it on the back.

The difference here is there is no warning. A simple warning would suffice and cover there ass for the most part. But there is no such warning that i see. Yes it gives a recommended dose, but it says nothing about using more.

 

[BigBlackguy]

actually it is the company's responsibility flex. just like you said in bold above, ibuprofen bottles say it on the back.

The difference here is there is no warning. A simple warning would suffice and cover there ass for the most part. But there is no such warning that i see. Yes it gives a recommended dose, but it says nothing about using more.

I'm sure glub is smart enough to know that 2.5x the recommended dosage will effect him differently than taking the recommended dosage. Yes, legally, perhaps there does need to be a "Do not exceed the recommended dosage", but in this case, we know Glub has the intelligence and knowledge to determine an effective dose.

 

[Not Ted]

actually it is the company's responsibility flex. just like you said in bold above, ibuprofen bottles say it on the back.

The difference here is there is no warning. A simple warning would suffice and cover there ass for the most part. But there is no such warning that i see. Yes it gives a recommended dose, but it says nothing about using more.

Are you crazy? this is the best stuff since Mag-10

booo yah in your face cheppallet

 

[cheppallet]

I'm sure glub is smart enough to know that 2.5x the recommended dosage will effect him differently than taking the recommended dosage. Yes, legally, perhaps there does need to be a "Do not exceed the recommended dosage", but in this case, we know Glub has the intelligence and knowledge to determine an effective dose.

you may be right, but assumptions mean jack shit in a courtroom.

 

[rocko3927]

i tried this shit once and other than negative sides it did nothing for me. nothing! i think most prohormones are the bullshit from the past that weren't needed or wanted with real gear. fuck all that andromass bull shit. hell it's more expensive than gear, twice as dangerous and doesn't yield 1/10 of the results. as far as being as good as gear and safe, only 15, 16 and 17 year olds are buying into that bs. dude from primordal or what ever your company is....a little advice, change your pic you look like a child molester....just keeping it real brother....

 

[rocko3927]

and chep ..wtf brother... your a rag! you remind me of my second to last wife after her accident.... nothing but a rag....she bitched non stop.......chep i am glad to see you are doing well as i remember you on another board before the accident, at least i think that was you....u seem like such a bitch now...is it because of whats happened???

 

[cheppallet]

and chep ..wtf brother... your a rag! you remind me of my second to last wife after her accident.... nothing but a rag....she bitched non stop.......chep i am glad to see you are doing well as i remember you on another board before the accident, at least i think that was you....u seem like such a bitch now...is it because of whats happened???

haha. yeah rocko that was me. i blame it on the lack of erections for a year +. lol