F*ckin with Andromass - An unbiased mini log + review

[THE-DET-OAK]

Not sure what your asking about the cyp inhibition. CYP3A is the only enzyme the grapefruit is significantly inhibiting (mostly isolated in the intestines), which isnt a major pathway for endogenous androgen clearance.
-Eric

This will be my last post in this thread. There is nothing wrong with selling a product that does these negative things. Hell we all take all kinds of things that have downsides to get the positives we want. Here is the real problem though, these claims that this product is safer than "steroids" and "smarter" is just kind of scary to me.

kaempferol is a natural flavone in grapefruit, there are studies all over showing it dramatically inhibits cyp1a1 and cyp1a2. These are both responsible for steroid and drug metabolism. Although their main responsibility is estrogen, hence why Glub's E is climbing.

bergamottin is a natural furanocoumarin found principally in grapefruit juice, studies all over the net showing it dramatically inhibits cyp219. In high doses, it has also been shown to inhibit cyp3a4 in the liver, in addition to the intestinal wall. Cyp219's main responsibility is drug and steroid metabolism.

^^^ These cyp enzymes are mostly isolated in the liver, and thats where androgens clear, that is why I think this inhibition is affecting his liver values. There are medications/flavones that inhibit these enzymes and those that activate their action. There is plenty of literature showing correlation between inhibiting these enzymes, and elevated transaminase levels.

saying that "this product doesn't inhibit them that much" is like saying its ok to run proviron in PCT cause "its not that suppressive". There is no way to generally calculate the level of inhibition. There is plenty of evidence that it does inhibit these, just because its less than 3a4 does not mean it has no significance.

I guess, in the end, it actually was the grapefruit.

I personally think his BP is climbing because his liver is getting clogged with these toxins, and now his heart is trying to force blood flow.

They are also responsible for clearing cholesterol, which is possibly why his cholesterol is going up.

here is a list of what all the cyp enzymes do:

Cytochrome P450 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I'm not going to post studies on the inhibition of these other enzymes cause they can be found in seconds doing a simple google scholar search.

Bottom line, I would fear for Glub's health if he took your advice and starting running his maintenance dose of T with it.

Glub it is my opinion that you go back to your normal regimen, unfortunately I do not see your health swinging back into form if you continue this product. I commend you for giving it a honest shot.

As far as the other log with dbol, I don't even know what to say about that.

I like some of your products, especially pre-max, I have been trying to get you guys to let me log it for you for a year now.

 

[mlc31]

Great research, DET. Very nicely said.

 

[riprockwell]

Nice info Det. Refreshing to read. Thanks!

 

[glubgawd]

wow DET....that's some serious stuff. The wife and I looked up a few of those studies and it's got her a little worried.

After checking my BP this morning (and being too afraid to take aspirin after reading about the liver inhibition), my wife and docs agreed that it's probably time to end the log and go back to what I know my body responds well to.

I'd like to thank DET for providing some great information and all the steroidology members that came to show support. I appreciate everyone keeping calm in this thread and not turning into a bullshit marathon where the mods had to delete every other post.

I'd also like to thank PP for being equally supportive. You guys are awesome at responding to just about every obscure question that could possibly be asked. You definitely deserve some credit for that. I also appreciate you guys being as professional as you are.

I wish all the other loggers the best of luck and look forward to reading the reviews.

 

[glubgawd]

Coming from someone who had a minor stint playing ball, practice squad haha, and also someone who was planning on running andromass, this is what I think. As mentioned above claimed equivalences are just that, equivalences in anabolic activity, not claiming actual test levels will be raised. I'd run the rest of the andromass but get back on your typical hormone regime, once the AM is done I'd check levels. At your size and hormone use history I'd say that 15 caps, hell even 20-25 caps a day wouldn't cut it. You will need the real stuff, andromass might be ok to add to it, but not a substitute. That rise in liver enzymes isn't that bad. I work in the medical field and while any rise in ast/alt isn't good, levels will rise even more than that upon initiation of statin therapy. The strength number decreases are really what scares me, I typically lift for strength and will soon be competing in powerlifting. Looks like a loss in lean mass and strength for you. I'm hoping that it is just from the switch from real gear to the andromass that caused the let down. Either way good luck and I'll be following the rest of this log closely.

thanks man. I always appreciate getting input.

In bold is what I think as well.

 

[glubgawd]

How often are you running these tests?

Would you mind emailing me the last few series of tests, along with what you where using at the time?

eric @ primordialperformance.com

-Eric

No problem man. I'll need to get permission first (usually only takes 1-2 weeks to get an approval/denial of a request like this). I can have my agent and lawyer contact you if I get approved though.....there would be some legal paperwork on your side for obvious reasons.....

I usually get tested every Friday, but I'm only required to do so 2x a week - one of my earlier years in the league I accidentally missed one of my 2 tests. After seeing the size of that fine I just decided to go every week lol.

 

[mlc31]

Your fine was probably more than my car and motorcycle combined.

 

[ryansm]

wow DET....that's some serious stuff. The wife and I looked up a few of those studies and it's got her a little worried.

After checking my BP this morning (and being too afraid to take aspirin after reading about the liver inhibition), my wife and docs agreed that it's probably time to end the log and go back to what I know my body responds well to.

I'd like to thank DET for providing some great information and all the steroidology members that came to show support. I appreciate everyone keeping calm in this thread and not turning into a bullshit marathon where the mods had to delete every other post.

I'd also like to thank PP for being equally supportive. You guys are awesome at responding to just about every obscure question that could possibly be asked. You definitely deserve some credit for that. I also appreciate you guys being as professional as you are.

I wish all the other loggers the best of luck and look forward to reading the reviews.

Hey bud thanks for the log and giving AM a try we appreciate the feedback. Also I'll gladly take the rest of the AM off your hands

 

[ryansm]

I like some of your products, especially pre-max, I have been trying to get you guys to let me log it for you for a year now.

Well we'll have to work something out then, shoot me a PM.

The AndroSeries has gotten a lot of attention but we do offer a nice variety of high quality/unique/and innovative supplements.

 

[BigBlackguy]

thanks man. I always appreciate getting input.

In bold is what I think as well.

Hopefully you'll start seeing some better performance Glub!

 

[Primordial Performance]

This will be my last post in this thread. There is nothing wrong with selling a product that does these negative things. Hell we all take all kinds of things that have downsides to get the positives we want. Here is the real problem though, these claims that this product is safer than "steroids" and "smarter" is just kind of scary to me.

kaempferol is a natural flavone in grapefruit, there are studies all over showing it dramatically inhibits cyp1a1 and cyp1a2. These are both responsible for steroid and drug metabolism. Although their main responsibility is estrogen, hence why Glub's E is climbing.

I wouldn't presume so. Besides, we are dealing with grapefruit here, not individual flavonoids. Grapefruit consists of hundreds of flavones and furocoumarins all of which inhibit and induce hundreds of different CYP enzymes. It***8217;s a complex biphasic relationship. I would be glad to talk about the effects of these individual compounds, but it will be a very lengthy discussion.

If we look at the actual effect of grapefruit in humans, we don***8217;t see an increase in estrogen -

"We also examined cross-sectionally the relationship between consumption of grapefruit and grapefruit juice and plasma levels of oestrogens among 701 postmenopausal women not using hormone replacement. No significant correlation was observed (grapefruit, grapefruit juice) for plasma oestradiol (r¼0.02, 0.04), oestrone (r¼0.00, 0.02), or oestrone sulphate (0.09, 0.01)."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2359690/pdf/6604105a.pdf

bergamottin is a natural furanocoumarin found principally in grapefruit juice, studies all over the net showing it dramatically inhibits cyp219. In high doses, it has also been shown to inhibit cyp3a4 in the liver, in addition to the intestinal wall. Cyp219's main responsibility is drug and steroid metabolism.

Im not sure what "CYP219" is. You must be referring to CYP2C19. Steroid hormones are not a substrate for this enzyme.

^^^ These cyp enzymes are mostly isolated in the liver, and thats where androgens clear, that is why I think this inhibition is affecting his liver values. There are medications/flavones that inhibit these enzymes and those that activate their action. There is plenty of literature showing correlation between inhibiting these enzymes, and elevated transaminase levels.

Elevated transaminase levels from grapefruit? Please show me.

I guess, in the end, it actually was the grapefruit.

I personally think his BP is climbing because his liver is getting clogged with these toxins, and now his heart is trying to force blood flow.

There is no logical way that grapefruit is making his estrogen or liver enzymes climb. It could be possible that it is acting as a co-factor by possibly interacting with another drug or medication that he may be taking. Or we may be seeing a rebound as a result of cessation of another drug or medication.

It's unfortunate that this experiment was so uncontrolled. It would have been nice to see gawd have a consistent 6 months of hormone control and blood work prior to starting the AndroMass. There really is no way to derive any conclusion from this log.

I like some of your products, especially pre-max, I have been trying to get you guys to let me log it for you for a year now.

Between all the PP reps on this board you havent been able to get a bottle of premax? Crazy! I'm sure we will be able to figure something out.

 

[Primordial Performance]

No problem man. I'll need to get permission first (usually only takes 1-2 weeks to get an approval/denial of a request like this). I can have my agent and lawyer contact you if I get approved though.....there would be some legal paperwork on your side for obvious reasons.....

I usually get tested every Friday, but I'm only required to do so 2x a week - one of my earlier years in the league I accidentally missed one of my 2 tests. After seeing the size of that fine I just decided to go every week lol.

I was assuming the tests where owned by you. If they are, you could just block out the last name if you are concerned with privacy.

-Eric

 

[doitright24]

I wouldn't presume so. Besides, we are dealing with grapefruit here, not individual flavonoids. Grapefruit consists of hundreds of flavones and furocoumarins all of which inhibit and induce hundreds of different CYP enzymes. It***8217;s a complex biphasic relationship. I would be glad to talk about the effects of these individual compounds, but it will be a very lengthy discussion.

If we look at the actual effect of grapefruit in humans, we don***8217;t see an increase in estrogen -

"We also examined cross-sectionally the relationship between consumption of grapefruit and grapefruit juice and plasma levels of oestrogens among 701 postmenopausal women not using hormone replacement. No significant correlation was observed (grapefruit, grapefruit juice) for plasma oestradiol (r¼0.02, 0.04), oestrone (r¼0.00, 0.02), or oestrone sulphate (0.09, 0.01)."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2359690/pdf/6604105a.pdf





Im not sure what "CYP219" is. You must be referring to CYP2C19. Steroid hormones are not a substrate for this enzyme.




Elevated transaminase levels from grapefruit? Please show me.



There is no logical way that grapefruit is making his estrogen or liver enzymes climb. It could be possible that it is acting as a co-factor by possibly interacting with another drug or medication that he may be taking. Or we may be seeing a rebound as a result of cessation of another drug or medication.

It's unfortunate that this experiment was so uncontrolled. It would have been nice to see gawd have a consistent 6 months of hormone control and blood work prior to starting the AndroMass. There really is no way to derive any conclusion from this log.

i have derived some pretty solid conclusions from it, and hope others do as well...

 

[cheppallet]

damn. i was hoping to get something positive out of this log about the PP products as opposed to all of the other ones out there.

Either way, good luck with your career glubgawd, sorry it got your values all screwed up.

 

[cheppallet]

It's unfortunate that this experiment was so uncontrolled. It would have been nice to see gawd have a consistent 6 months of hormone control and blood work prior to starting the AndroMass. There really is no way to derive any conclusion from this log.

i assume you are the owner. i do have a question about what you said above. It mentions nothing on your site about use of your products requiring controlled environments. Yet you clearly used that as to why you can't answer for his results. From an outside perspective, honestly it sounds like an excuse.

If using these products do require some sort of overwatch, shouldn't that be mentioned somewhere so some young kid doesn't take 15 pills thinking more is better (like most yound guys do in this game) and end up with jaundice or even dead?

i was very interested in these products, even realizing all the logs out there were probably somewhat bullshit (meaning no mention of ANY negative sides and ALL positive sides), but after seeing this logs results, i'm not so sure i want to even give it a try.

And thats not because of the negative side effects, but because of the almost blatant 'sweeping under the carpet' of those results by your company and not even considering there may be something wrong with the product.

just my take. I tend to overanalyze things, but i'd hate for someone who wasn't as in tune with blood work as glubgawd was to get seriously hurt by this or any of your products.

 

[Primordial Performance]

i assume you are the owner. i do have a question about what you said above. It mentions nothing on your site about use of your products requiring controlled environments. Yet you clearly used that as to why you can't answer for his results. From an outside perspective, honestly it sounds like an excuse.

If using these products do require some sort of overwatch, shouldn't that be mentioned somewhere so some young kid doesn't take 15 pills thinking more is better (like most yound guys do in this game) and end up with jaundice or even dead?

i was very interested in these products, even realizing all the logs out there were probably somewhat bullshit (meaning no mention of ANY negative sides and ALL positive sides), but after seeing this logs results, i'm not so sure i want to even give it a try.

And thats not because of the negative side effects, but because of the almost blatant 'sweeping under the carpet' of those results by your company and not even considering there may be something wrong with the product.

just my take. I tend to overanalyze things, but i'd hate for someone who wasn't as in tune with blood work as glubgawd was to get seriously hurt by this or any of your products.

Yes, I'm one of the owners.

I'm saying that one cannot assume that AndroMass "increases estrogen and liver values" just because of this very obscure and uncontrolled log. We have 80 years of peer-reviewed research on anabolic steroids, including blood tests directly from our products that support the safety claims. (no negative effect on liver values, kidney, etc).

In addition, even if this product is dosed 3x over the recommended dose, these supposed effects that this logger reported are not normal. This is why we would like to collect his data, concurrently used supplements, drugs, etc.. and look for the causative factor here.

I can tell you that the logs showing positive results are no bull*hit. They are real paying customers who are having good results with the product. In fact we have over 50 AndroSeries customers signed up to report before and after blood results, pictures, testimonials, etc. These results will gradually be posted at the results come in.

-Eric

 

[cheppallet]

Yes, I'm one of the owners.

I'm saying that one cannot assume that AndroMass "increases estrogen and liver values" just because of this very obscure and uncontrolled log. We have 80 years of peer-reviewed research on anabolic steroids, including blood tests directly from our products that support the safety claims. (no negative effect on liver values, kidney, etc).

In addition, even if this product is dosed 3x over the recommended dose, these supposed effects that this logger reported are not normal. This is why we would like to collect his data, concurrently used supplements, drugs, etc.. and look for the causative factor here.

I can tell you that the logs showing positive results are no bull*hit. They are real paying customers who are having good results with the product. In fact we have over 50 AndroSeries customers signed up to report before and after blood results, pictures, testimonials, etc. These results will gradually be posted at the results come in.

-Eric

fair enough. but what are the blood tests going to show? I understand the need to show that health isn't being compromised via liver damage, increases in estrogen, etc. But that raises two points.

1. We keep getting told that blood tests won't show any increase in test levels, which i can almost guarantee that any person, well, an intelligent person not some newbie that would believe anything he reads, would be more interested in knowing that there was an increase in test levels moreso than their liver values or estro levels being elevated.

2. How can blood tests show those things, elevated or not, yet not show an increase in test levels. Physiologically there should be no difference. I'm sorry but just saying because you use two types of DHEA and those should equate to xxxx amount of test is not enough science to prove anything. Again, maybe to a young guy who doesn't understand how this works and just wants bigger biceps for the summer, but for the average person with any significant amount of knowledge, this won't fly. Again, i have read what your site says, and your reps have given their thoughts on this, but you have to see the contradiction here, especially after you stating what you did above.

Thanks for your quick responses by the way. i have to agree with Glub, whether they make sense or not, you guys are quick to respond with some sort of answer.

Jason

 

[glubgawd]

I'm saying that one cannot assume that AndroMass "increases estrogen and liver values" just because of this very obscure and uncontrolled log. We have 80 years of peer-reviewed research on anabolic steroids, including blood tests directly from our products that support the safety claims. (no negative effect on liver values, kidney, etc).

In addition, even if this product is dosed 3x over the recommended dose, these supposed effects that this logger reported are not normal. This is why we would like to collect his data, concurrently used supplements, drugs, etc.. and look for the causative factor here.

I can tell you that the logs showing positive results are no bull*hit. They are real paying customers who are having good results with the product. In fact we have over 50 AndroSeries customers signed up to report before and after blood results, pictures, testimonials, etc. These results will gradually be posted at the results come in.

-Eric

Ok a few things here:

1) I don't own my blood tests. The team does (they practically own ME lol). However, like I previously mentioned, if you guys are willing to sign the confidentiality agreements and some form of compensation of salary agreement in case the information is leaked, I don't mind asking for permission to have them released to you if you think they'll be helpful in studying the effects of your own product. I can't guarantee the team will approve though. I think they keep the copies of all tests from the previous 16 months or so.

2) I'm no scientist. I did, however, get a BS in Math and MS in Stats. So I know what an experiment is. Calling my log "uncontrolled" and "obscure" is silly imo. I'm not some random jackass logging your product like 95% of the other dudes. I'm a well respected member of this board.....and I didn't buy that respect.....

The ONLY thing being tested was YOUR product. How is that "uncontrolled" or in any other way unsatisfactory or obscure? I understand you didn't want to see that many side effects, but it doesn't change the fact that it happened and the only variable was Andromass.

3) Why are you referring to my experience as "supposed"? Because it wasn't positive? You then go on to make that last comment in bold. You're saying other logs are more legit than mine because they produced the results you wanted?

Not gonna lie. I'm offended. I think it's total bullshit.

I ended the log in a respectful way without accusing PP or your products of anything. Now you're trying to discredit my log. I don't appreciate that at all.

Either way, I'm done with this log. I won't bother checking back for excuses and defense.

I wish I could have made some comments about the actual results from your product. Unfortunately, I didn't get that far. I can, however, comment with certainty that Andromass is NOT "side effect free" as you claim.

The side effects I experienced, ESPECIALLY the blood pressure, I've never had before when coming off a cycle. Now, I've only been running steroids for around 10 years so maybe you know more than I do about my own body.


Again, I thank those PP reps who took the time to support my log AND respond in a professional manner without trying to discredit me in some bullshit manner. Most of you have proven you're a class act. And, as I previously mentioned, you guys don't get enough credit for that.


Good luck.

 

[hatefulONE]

The rise in blood pressure scares me as well. I think the log is just fine, is it a fully controlled laboratory study with a double blind and control vs variables etc etc, no. To be honest though real world results are what really appeals to people. I am wondering why the bp has gone up so much. I'm assuming extra water retention perhaps causing increase in bp. Any chance we could get the bun and creatinine? Lots of variables at work, possibly a big rebound from coming off cycle, or the andromass causing some effect on the renin angiotensin system?

So did you stop the andromass? What are you planning on taking instead? Hows the work outs been if have came off the andromass?

 

[djm6464]

Is that the actually weight you are lifting or did I miss something?

if it was, highly doubt hed be in the league, the fkn kicker would be able to rush him even lol