Keto Diet + Test E and Zero Pumps/Protein Q

omgmike1

New member
Has anyone here done the keto diet?

My total macros are about: 20g Carb, 250g Protein, Rest Fats = About 4000 Calories

Diet: Ground Sausage Tube, Ground Beef Tube, Whey Isolate, Cheese, Ranch. (This is the only stuff I'm consuming).

I'm Prob taking in more way more protein than fats. Would this Kick me out of the Keto State? I've been aiming for 1.25x BW for Protein and the rest filled with fats?

In the gym I'm experiencing zero pumps. I usually gauge my work outs based on the pump, but now it's so hard to do. I feel like I'm doing nothing, just getting tired and the best I can do is lift to failure.

I also seem to not experience any hunger on the Keto diet. Usually when I cut with carbs, I feel like I'm starving.

My cutting cycle is: 500-750 test E only to help save muscle.

Started with 5 mins of cardio first week, then each week after added 5 minutes to it. Been doing it after my work out and using the less than 130 heart rate walk speed to aim for fat burning.
 
too high of protein on a Keto diet can knock you out of ketosis through the process of neoglucogenesis ,, your body takes excess amino acids and converts them into glucose.

if actual "ketosis" is your main goal of the keto diet , then you should stick to higher fats and moderate protein intake . also , you don't want to be in a hyper caloric diet , better off being at maintenance or in slight deficit.

4000 calories a day sounds like your above maintenance (depends on your current TDEE). Just because your going Keto and no carb , if your above maintenance calories, you will still store body fat , or at least not burn body fat . you need to be in a deficit in a keto diet if your cutting**

** note that some people are on keto diets for over all health benefits and NOT doing it for body comp reasons, and will go keto and eat above maintenance . again not recommended for a cut.

and if your not cutting or prepping for a show , i see no reason to go Keto for body composition purposes (at least for body builders) . again keto is great for a cut, also for endurance athletes, tri athletes, etc. and over all health factors .


the reason why your not that hungry on a Keto diet is because of 'saitety' , you feel full because of the fats and proteins , which are slow digesting and more thermogenic then carbs . also your blood sugar in not constantly being spiked up and down like when you consume carbs , this blood sugar spikes and crashes creates hunger.
does not happen on Keto. very easy to go hypo caloric and cut while on Keto cause you have less cravings.


Your not going to get much of a pump while on Keto . Your muslce glycogen stores are completely depleted and are not being restored by carb consumption. Carbs are somewhat 'anabolic' in a certain way in that they help psh water , glycogen, etc.. into the muscles and helps create the 'pump' . no carbs no 'swole' factor .


whats your main goal in doing Keto diet?


I've done it for various reasons myself ,, mainly health reasons. Tried it on a bulk and that did not work well at all lol . Need carbs to bulk
 
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This^^^^
(About cutting @ 4k a day)

And just me personally there are wayyy better sources of fat than ranch lol
 
I've always thought that it's 1.25 your BW of protein to save muscle. For someone around 195lbs... 250 protein should cover it well in a deficit? Right?

Then your saying, that eating too much protein can kick you out of keto. So how are people staying in keto and cutting while preserving muscle mass correctly? Are u telling me that I should swap out like 100g protein or more into fats to keep in keto? It seems like a loss of muscle mass to do that in a cut. Explain more please.

I've posted before. I need a lot of calories to grow. I don't know why it's so hard for some of you guys to understand. It took me 5000 cals to put on even some slight weight? My maintenance sitting-rest day is around prob 3500. I was just starting to lower my cals to get into the zone, of course I understand deficit and I will be dropping fat by lowering cals every other week or week and adding in extra 5+ minutes of cardio each week I move onto.

Either way, I said I'm eating a full tube of sausage and beef. When I cook them, I drain the grease, which is a LOT of loss of dietary fat AKA extra cals. So in reality I'm prob already eating around 3500-3800 tbh which is my sitting maintenance and I'm adding in my 1.5H workout + 10 minutes of cardio this week. Next week will be 15 and maybe lower cals by 100-250..depending on how the scale shows.


I'm most interesting in staying in keto, but I'm lost at the protein ratio.....??

PS: any thoughts on diet sodas on keto?
 
Muscles lack glycogen on keto.
Running hgh can counteract muscle flatness giving you more fullness and a better pump.
Worked well for me, also gave more energy for workouts.
 
You are going to lose some muscle when in a caloric deficit. AAS and lots of protein juat help minimize the loss.

Why are you even doing Keto? It doesn't seem to match up with the way you are training. Why not just eat a balanced diet and reduce carbs a bit to get to your targeted caloric deficit? So for example, 1g of P per pound of bodyweight. .4g of F. And the remainder in carbs. Or go 1.25g P if you desire.
 
I've always thought that it's 1.25 your BW of protein to save muscle. For someone around 195lbs... 250 protein should cover it well in a deficit? Right?

Then your saying, that eating too much protein can kick you out of keto. So how are people staying in keto and cutting while preserving muscle mass correctly? Are u telling me that I should swap out like 100g protein or more into fats to keep in keto? It seems like a loss of muscle mass to do that in a cut. Explain more please.


trying to stay in Ketosis , and trying to preserve muscle mass through "excess protein consumption" is a CONTRADICTORY goal. a high protein diet is NOT a Keto diet.

staying in ketosis is great if your doing it for health reasons, and metal capacity (your brain can run 'cleaner' on ketones, according to some people). but if your main goal is body building , who cares if you come out of ketosis here and there (other then if you don't mind the brain fog during the transition periods). Unless your cutting and 'fat burning' is your number one goal .. then stay in ketosis and burn fat for fuel.

its simple -- consuming more protein then your body needs for daily function , while having zero carbs, will lead to the possibility through gluconeogenesis of the proteins being converted to carbs by the liver in the body. This will raise your blood sugar, and spike your insulin , and thus provide 'sugar' for fuel for the body and bring your out of ketosis .

^^ its no big deal if that happens . but if ketosis and strict fat burning are your main goal, then its not ideal. so don't consume more protein then you need for basic function . which is around .75-1 gram of protein per pound of body weight.

and you will stay in ketosis and burn more fat this way. is it possible to loose some amount of muscle while burning fat and in a caloric deficit . sure . BUT KEEP THIS IN MIND : A Keto diet is a 'anti-catabolic' diet to begin with ,, meaning it is a muscle sparing diet even with lower amounts of protein then you are used to . why ?
because your body is running on fats and ketones for fuel . if there is an abundance of this fuel for energy then there is no need for the body to catabolize muscle for fuel (resulting in muscle loss).**

in ketosis your body has its own fat stores to use as energy , it also has dietary fats for energy. thats why a truly ketogenic diet is high in fats (not high in protein). it no longer needs 'sugars' and won't catabolize muscle for fuel either,, but the fats need to be there.


** this is assuming your training is on point and your stimulating the muscle enough to warrant the bodies need to keep the muscle mass in the first place. train heavy weight and high volume to help preserve muscle.

also , your anabolics will help you preserve muscle as well. so if you really want to do Keto , then do Keto, don't worry about 'loosing muscle' and then taking in excess protein which is not Keto.
 
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trying to stay in Ketosis , and trying to preserve muscle mass through "excess protein consumption" is a CONTRADICTORY goal. a high protein diet is NOT a Keto diet.

staying in ketosis is great if your doing it for health reasons, and metal capacity (your brain can run 'cleaner' on ketones, according to some people). but if your main goal is body building , who cares if you come out of ketosis here and there (other then if you don't mind the brain fog during the transition periods). Unless your cutting and 'fat burning' is your number one goal .. then stay in ketosis and burn fat for fuel.

its simple -- consuming more protein then your body needs for daily function , while having zero carbs, will lead to the possibility through gluconeogenesis of the proteins being converted to carbs by the liver in the body. This will raise your blood sugar, and spike your insulin , and thus provide 'sugar' for fuel for the body and bring your out of ketosis .

^^ its no big deal if that happens . but if ketosis and strict fat burning are your main goal, then its not ideal. so don't consume more protein then you need for basic function . which is around .75-1 gram of protein per pound of body weight.

and you will stay in ketosis and burn more fat this way. is it possible to loose some amount of muscle while burning fat and in a caloric deficit . sure . BUT KEEP THIS IN MIND : A Keto diet is a 'anti-catabolic' diet to begin with ,, meaning it is a muscle sparing diet even with lower amounts of protein then you are used to . why ?
because your body is running on fats and ketones for fuel . if there is an abundance of this fuel for energy then there is no need for the body to catabolize muscle for fuel (resulting in muscle loss).**

in ketosis your body has its own fat stores to use as energy , it also has dietary fats for energy. thats why a truly ketogenic diet is high in fats (not high in protein). it no longer needs 'sugars' and won't catabolize muscle for fuel either,, but the fats need to be there.


** this is assuming your training is on point and your stimulating the muscle enough to warrant the bodies need to keep the muscle mass in the first place. train heavy weight and high volume to help preserve muscle.

also , your anabolics will help you preserve muscle as well. so if you really want to do Keto , then do Keto, don't worry about 'loosing muscle' and then taking in excess protein which is not Keto.


What do u think about keto strips? I might buy a few and see how it's working with my diet.

Even if I am not in keto, high protein, high fat and low carbs will work better for me than cutting with carbs I feel.

Let me reLIST my macros so u can see:
4055 Cals: 19-22 Carbs, 261 Protein, 321.5 Fat


So My Fat is Higher than my protein in take if I calc the macros by looking at all the labels, HOWEVER, since I am not eating all the grease that melts from the food. I think the fat is less that by a decent amount.

You say that it's best for .7-1g per BW in terms of protein to stay in keto?

I had a very good chat with Half a while ago about the Keto Diet because I didn't know anything about it and of course he gave me tons of information on it as I asked him loads of questions. I just checked the PM from a few months ago and I see once of the questions I did talk about was Protein intake and staying in keto.


"Yes, you can kick yourself out of ketosis, but that's only if you don't get enough fats to make ample ketones for what your body needs. You could easily do 300-350g of protein, although it's more expensive than just going with 200-250g and filling the rest with fats."

"No carbs = no glycogen = flat".

I always appreciate his word the most on this forum and of course we all know that he is very knowledgeable about MANY things. I wish he would chime in on this thread, would be rather helpful.
 
Question for you Mike :
if 200 grams of protein a day will keep you in ketosis and if being in ketosis will keep you anti-cataboic and therefore allow you to preserve your muscle mass you have .. why would you want to consume any more protein then that which is needed? if there is no added benefit. ???

especially if 'cutting' is your goal . its a waste of food and a waste of $ to consume more then is needed to meet your goal of cutting.

I'm assuming cutting BF is your main goal for this diet ?

if building muscle, hypertorypy, or 'massing' was a variable in your goal then I would say that additional protein is beneficial then . but for cutting purpose , if 200 g of protein is enough to preserve muscle* and keep you in ketosis and burn fat . why consume anymore.


* again , as i stated above , being in Ketosis is 'anti-catoblic' , it helps you preserve muscle WITHOUT the need of additional proteins , because your body is using fat and ketones for fuel and has no need to break down muscle tissue for fuel. a surplus of Proteins is totally not needed, it is a hindrance (in regards to cutting while in ketosis).



^ the above advice is not beneficial if hypertrophy and muscle building are your primary goals. if thats your goal then I'd drop the Keto diet . i've done cutting in Keto, and I've tried bulking while in Keto . it only works for a cut, or for general health reasons.

if your still trying to pack on slabs of muscle mass in your long term body composition goals,, then leave Keto alone until later on once you've reached your over all mass goals . if your trying to get shredded and loose BF, without going through the hunger issues and stress of a very hypo-caloric diet ,, then Keto is the way to go



as for ketone strips . I would invest in a blood glucose / ketone meter . you need actual blood ketone levels to be accurate . the piss strips only tell that Ketones in your body are being throwing away (extracted through urination) , not how much your using and is in the blood stream .
they are like $45 . plus if you ever run HGH and insulin one day you'll need that as well . so its not a bad investment.


hope that helps . and yes it would be great if HalfWhit chimmed in :)
 
Question for you Mike :
if 200 grams of protein a day will keep you in ketosis and if being in ketosis will keep you anti-cataboic and therefore allow you to preserve your muscle mass you have .. why would you want to consume any more protein then that which is needed? if there is no added benefit. ???

especially if 'cutting' is your goal . its a waste of food and a waste of $ to consume more then is needed to meet your goal of cutting.

I'm assuming cutting BF is your main goal for this diet ?

if building muscle, hypertorypy, or 'massing' was a variable in your goal then I would say that additional protein is beneficial then . but for cutting purpose , if 200 g of protein is enough to preserve muscle* and keep you in ketosis and burn fat . why consume anymore.


* again , as i stated above , being in Ketosis is 'anti-catoblic' , it helps you preserve muscle WITHOUT the need of additional proteins , because your body is using fat and ketones for fuel and has no need to break down muscle tissue for fuel. a surplus of Proteins is totally not needed, it is a hindrance (in regards to cutting while in ketosis).



^ the above advice is not beneficial if hypertrophy and muscle building are your primary goals. if thats your goal then I'd drop the Keto diet . i've done cutting in Keto, and I've tried bulking while in Keto . it only works for a cut, or for general health reasons.

if your still trying to pack on slabs of muscle mass in your long term body composition goals,, then leave Keto alone until later on once you've reached your over all mass goals . if your trying to get shredded and loose BF, without going through the hunger issues and stress of a very hypo-caloric diet ,, then Keto is the way to go



as for ketone strips . I would invest in a blood glucose / ketone meter . you need actual blood ketone levels to be accurate . the piss strips only tell that Ketones in your body are being throwing away (extracted through urination) , not how much your using and is in the blood stream .
they are like $45 . plus if you ever run HGH and insulin one day you'll need that as well . so its not a bad investment.


hope that helps . and yes it would be great if HalfWhit chimmed in :)

To answer your question. It's because in my 5 years of BB and looking through thousands of threads and many sites and getting advice from competitive experts and coaches...I've never heard anyone say to consume LESS protein when cutting. When I bulk 200 is plenty to meet the ends, but when ur cutting down everyone says 1.25x Or even little more.....

U didn't say anything against what halfwit stated that even taking in 250g PROT, should still allow the body to be in ketosis as long as there is enough fat intake to suffice for the ketones? I'd appreciate so much more if he would explain this better to us, but I haven' seen him in a long time :(
 
To answer your question. It's because in my 5 years of BB and looking through thousands of threads and many sites and getting advice from competitive experts and coaches...I've never heard anyone say to consume LESS protein when cutting. When I bulk 200 is plenty to meet the ends, but when ur cutting down everyone says 1.25x Or even little more.....

U didn't say anything against what halfwit stated that even taking in 250g PROT, should still allow the body to be in ketosis as long as there is enough fat intake to suffice for the ketones? I'd appreciate so much more if he would explain this better to us, but I haven' seen him in a long time :(

well your question is more about Ketosis and protein intake then it is about 'cutting' . if all you want to do is cut , then a normal hypo-caloric diet is all that is needed.

and in all those years of experience and thousands of inquiries ,, I'm sure you've learned that you need to eat LESS calories then daily expenditure in order to cut weight and burn fat.

but back to protein and KETOSIS --

if your weight is in pounds, multiply it by 0.6 to 1.0 to get the minimum and maximum amount of protein in grams you should eat each day..

Make sure you eat at least the minimum amount of protein to prevent losing muscle tissue during the diet. If you exceed the maximum amount, as mentioned above, you may put your body out of ketosis
FROM
Volek, Jeff S., Phinney, Stephen D., The Art And Science of Low Carbohydrate Performance, chapter 7, 2012


^^ This is what the experts in the field of Ketogenic dieting have to say.



and as far as what halfwit said about eating 250g of protein as long as fats are high enough .. well I'm sure that number is just an example, not calculated. would he give that advice to a 110 pound bikini competitor doing a keto diet prepping for a show. no.
 
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Question for you Mike :
if 200 grams of protein a day will keep you in ketosis and if being in ketosis will keep you anti-cataboic and therefore allow you to preserve your muscle mass you have .. why would you want to consume any more protein then that which is needed? if there is no added benefit. ???

especially if 'cutting' is your goal . its a waste of food and a waste of $ to consume more then is needed to meet your goal of cutting.

I'm assuming cutting BF is your main goal for this diet ?

if building muscle, hypertorypy, or 'massing' was a variable in your goal then I would say that additional protein is beneficial then . but for cutting purpose , if 200 g of protein is enough to preserve muscle* and keep you in ketosis and burn fat . why consume anymore.


* again , as i stated above , being in Ketosis is 'anti-catoblic' , it helps you preserve muscle WITHOUT the need of additional proteins , because your body is using fat and ketones for fuel and has no need to break down muscle tissue for fuel. a surplus of Proteins is totally not needed, it is a hindrance (in regards to cutting while in ketosis).



^ the above advice is not beneficial if hypertrophy and muscle building are your primary goals. if thats your goal then I'd drop the Keto diet . i've done cutting in Keto, and I've tried bulking while in Keto . it only works for a cut, or for general health reasons.

if your still trying to pack on slabs of muscle mass in your long term body composition goals,, then leave Keto alone until later on once you've reached your over all mass goals . if your trying to get shredded and loose BF, without going through the hunger issues and stress of a very hypo-caloric diet ,, then Keto is the way to go



as for ketone strips . I would invest in a blood glucose / ketone meter . you need actual blood ketone levels to be accurate . the piss strips only tell that Ketones in your body are being throwing away (extracted through urination) , not how much your using and is in the blood stream .
they are like $45 . plus if you ever run HGH and insulin one day you'll need that as well . so its not a bad investment.


hope that helps . and yes it would be great if HalfWhit chimmed in :)

I think roush is halfwits alter ego like Bruce Wayne and batman ???? Halfwit goes missing and roush comes back the next day??? Mmmmm lol
 
well your question is more about Ketosis and protein intake then it is about 'cutting' . if all you want to do is cut , then a normal hypo-caloric diet is all that is needed.

and in all those years of experience and thousands of inquiries ,, I'm sure you've learned that you need to eat LESS calories then daily expenditure in order to cut weight and burn fat.

but back to protein and KETOSIS --


FROM



^^ This is what the experts in the field of Ketogenic dieting have to say.



and as far as what halfwit said about eating 250g of protein as long as fats are high enough .. well I'm sure that number is just an example, not calculated. would he give that advice to a 110 pound bikini competitor doing a keto diet prepping for a show. no.

I first asked Mrripzilla about cutting to save muscle and he said 1.25x Protein intake is what you need. I then calc 250 is about my stats (200lb 5'75 Male) and then asked Half for some more information after hearing that too much protein can kick you out of keto on a thread on this forum. Half gave me the reply thinking with my stats and said even 350g of protein would keep me in keto as long as fat intake is good and carbs are very low.

I don't get why u keep telling me deficit. Who DOES NOT know a deficit is needed to lose weight. I am talking about staying in keto with optimal 200+ protein ratio. Even if Keto is muscle sparing like you say, do u really think cutting in general on 150-120g of protein sounds like a good idea, because to me it's stating I'm looking to lose muscle in the obvious. Protein intake bulking should be high and EVEN higher when cutting because ur body is not destroying only fat, but muscle mass too when u cut down as some of the others said above, it's a given and the best way to preserve it is with: Low volume training, High Protein, AAS Use.

Not trying to argue, but telling me to intake .7lb of protein to cut AKA 140g of protein is just down right stupid IMO and I want Half or Mrrip or 3J to confirm this....
 
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