THE-DET-OAK
IncreasedMyT @ ULV
There you go again sir, finding an excuse to tuck tail and run. I know you want to have this huge debate, but the debate has already been had.......................sorry you were late to the party..............
Low Testosterone?
- Thread starter kmid
- Start date
There you go again sir, finding an excuse to tuck tail and run. I know you want to have this huge debate, but the debate has already been had.......................sorry you were late to the party..............
THE-DET-OAK
IncreasedMyT @ ULV
Did you see the study you qouted???? The one where you said here come all the copy/paste?
You do realise they gave 8 hypo males 1500iu shots of HCG 3x a week....................there t levels rose.......................and remained there for the ENTIRE 23 months.........how long does it take for this desensitization to occur sir?
I could have simply posted that...............but why? why not take every piece of any argument you could possibly divulge and just get it out of the way?
PS not one single thing I posted is erroneous..............every single post shows how HCG desnsitization simply does not occur....................
You do realise they gave 8 hypo males 1500iu shots of HCG 3x a week....................there t levels rose.......................and remained there for the ENTIRE 23 months.........how long does it take for this desensitization to occur sir?
I could have simply posted that...............but why? why not take every piece of any argument you could possibly divulge and just get it out of the way?
PS not one single thing I posted is erroneous..............every single post shows how HCG desnsitization simply does not occur....................
Last edited:
ok guys, you have had a real debate here haha.
some of you have offered a lot of information, but some of it is different to others.
Im looking to start something reletavley quickly (as soon as i can get hold of anything) so i need you guys to pull together and help me build a course thats gona attempt to get me back up and running.
First off my go to guy has suggested 3 high shots of hcg followed by a post cycle therapy (pct). he has also suggested this is largley in my head. especially the erectile dysfunction.
DADAWG - you have suggested to me run clomid at 4 weeks first then if that dosent help run HGC at 500iu every 4/5 days for 4 weeks along with nolva at 20/40mg a day then when clear clomid another 4 weeks? right?
THE-DET-OAK - you and peter north have said i wont get back to normal without HGC, you seem to think id have to go big with the HGC? correct? what structure are we talking here? when do you think i shud run a serm? what serm?
PRIMORDIAL - you seem to be disagreeeing a lot with det-oak on certain things involving HGC so id like your input here aswell
other guys have mentioned other products to run aswell
another board have suggested just running a pct with sustain alpha, and they also beleive its mostly in my head. Maybe im just recovering slowly? is 5/6months enough to recover from this?
so basically can you all come together here and agree on a course i can take?
asoon as i have a structure infront of me and have you guys agreeing, i am good to go
some of you have offered a lot of information, but some of it is different to others.
Im looking to start something reletavley quickly (as soon as i can get hold of anything) so i need you guys to pull together and help me build a course thats gona attempt to get me back up and running.
First off my go to guy has suggested 3 high shots of hcg followed by a post cycle therapy (pct). he has also suggested this is largley in my head. especially the erectile dysfunction.
DADAWG - you have suggested to me run clomid at 4 weeks first then if that dosent help run HGC at 500iu every 4/5 days for 4 weeks along with nolva at 20/40mg a day then when clear clomid another 4 weeks? right?
THE-DET-OAK - you and peter north have said i wont get back to normal without HGC, you seem to think id have to go big with the HGC? correct? what structure are we talking here? when do you think i shud run a serm? what serm?
PRIMORDIAL - you seem to be disagreeeing a lot with det-oak on certain things involving HGC so id like your input here aswell
other guys have mentioned other products to run aswell
another board have suggested just running a pct with sustain alpha, and they also beleive its mostly in my head. Maybe im just recovering slowly? is 5/6months enough to recover from this?
so basically can you all come together here and agree on a course i can take?
asoon as i have a structure infront of me and have you guys agreeing, i am good to go
Last edited:
ok guys a little update, this is the best response iv been given over at muscletalk. could the guys in this post please take a look and tell me what they think?
If it was me and a blood test had confirmed my post cycle therapy (pct) was unsuccesful at restoring my natural level, 5 months on... I'd run post cycle therapy (pct) again without a doubt.
Hcg @ 2500iu a shot eod for 2 weeks with nolva alongside @ 20mg a day, followed by 3/4 weeks of nolva and clomid. I'd also throw proviron in @ 50mg a day as it always helps with libido and will stop it crashing all together while on the SERMS. The proviron won't solve the problem, that will be down to the other meds but it will certainly make you feel better in the short term while your new post cycle therapy (pct) hopefully gets things going again.
It either works or it doesn't and your no worse off and have to try a different approach....
That's what i'd do personally. Some people would take advice from their doctor, as far as he's concerned there's nothing wrong with you though so no treatment on the NHS due to nothing to treat.
Looks like you'll have to try and treat yourself doesn't it...
I'd do it mon/thur/mon/thu personally mate, i'd probably do 4 shots so 10,000 iu over the course of 2 weeks but i have read some people advising 8 shots but as your not Shutdown as such then i'd stick with the 4 shots personally. Nolva at 20mg alongside.
Then 3/4 weeks on the nolva and clomid at the usual doses.
Run the proviron as in the short term it will perk you up and also free up some test in your system which might improve your frame of mind. A lot of this can be psychological as well as physiological. this way you're addressing both areas.
I think you're best off trying to restore your own systems atm and focusing on those rather than going the Hormone Replacement Therapy (HRT) route and shutting yourself down again. That's a commitment you'd have to make for life and wouldn't be a decision i made lightly either, I'd exhaust the other options first personally.
i would yeah, i'd go with 20mg nolva, 50mg clomid everyday for 3/4 weeks. Recovery is a slow process as you know so low doses are fine and work just as effectively.
Basically, you're on nolva/hcg for the first 2 weeks to prepare the testes for post cycle therapy (pct) and the nolva to prevent gyno at this time...
and you follow that with a further 21 or 28 days of 20/50 nolva/clomid. To hopefully restore HPTA function.
there's a lot of different methods floating about, this is just what i've always had planned in my head incase things don't go so well recovery wise.
If it was me and a blood test had confirmed my post cycle therapy (pct) was unsuccesful at restoring my natural level, 5 months on... I'd run post cycle therapy (pct) again without a doubt.
Hcg @ 2500iu a shot eod for 2 weeks with nolva alongside @ 20mg a day, followed by 3/4 weeks of nolva and clomid. I'd also throw proviron in @ 50mg a day as it always helps with libido and will stop it crashing all together while on the SERMS. The proviron won't solve the problem, that will be down to the other meds but it will certainly make you feel better in the short term while your new post cycle therapy (pct) hopefully gets things going again.
It either works or it doesn't and your no worse off and have to try a different approach....
That's what i'd do personally. Some people would take advice from their doctor, as far as he's concerned there's nothing wrong with you though so no treatment on the NHS due to nothing to treat.
Looks like you'll have to try and treat yourself doesn't it...
I'd do it mon/thur/mon/thu personally mate, i'd probably do 4 shots so 10,000 iu over the course of 2 weeks but i have read some people advising 8 shots but as your not Shutdown as such then i'd stick with the 4 shots personally. Nolva at 20mg alongside.
Then 3/4 weeks on the nolva and clomid at the usual doses.
Run the proviron as in the short term it will perk you up and also free up some test in your system which might improve your frame of mind. A lot of this can be psychological as well as physiological. this way you're addressing both areas.
I think you're best off trying to restore your own systems atm and focusing on those rather than going the Hormone Replacement Therapy (HRT) route and shutting yourself down again. That's a commitment you'd have to make for life and wouldn't be a decision i made lightly either, I'd exhaust the other options first personally.
i would yeah, i'd go with 20mg nolva, 50mg clomid everyday for 3/4 weeks. Recovery is a slow process as you know so low doses are fine and work just as effectively.
Basically, you're on nolva/hcg for the first 2 weeks to prepare the testes for post cycle therapy (pct) and the nolva to prevent gyno at this time...
and you follow that with a further 21 or 28 days of 20/50 nolva/clomid. To hopefully restore HPTA function.
there's a lot of different methods floating about, this is just what i've always had planned in my head incase things don't go so well recovery wise.
Last edited:
THE-DET-OAK
IncreasedMyT @ ULV
no I woud not follow the muscle talk protocol.
I know it seems like me and PP disagree on a lot of stuff, but really there are only a few small descrepencies on how to use HCG.
One thing im sure PP and I agree on is that running Nolva at the same time as HCG is not helpful.
I would get a 5,000 iu bottle of HCG. I would run 500iu every day until it is gone. I would wait 4 days and start SERM treatment. In my Standard PCT's thread all the options of SERM treatment are laid out completely.
Your idea of clomid 50 and nolva 20 will work just fine, but you need HCG first.
I know it seems like me and PP disagree on a lot of stuff, but really there are only a few small descrepencies on how to use HCG.
One thing im sure PP and I agree on is that running Nolva at the same time as HCG is not helpful.
I would get a 5,000 iu bottle of HCG. I would run 500iu every day until it is gone. I would wait 4 days and start SERM treatment. In my Standard PCT's thread all the options of SERM treatment are laid out completely.
Your idea of clomid 50 and nolva 20 will work just fine, but you need HCG first.
can i just ask as to why you think this wouldnt be the way to go? just so i know as to why (not so much the nolva side by side with the Hcg, ill trust yours and pp judgement on that, more the variation that he thinks i should use 10,000iu and you think 5000iu, and the difference in the structure of both as he thinks 4 shots and u think 10)
and what about the proviron he suggests? it sounds good to give me a bit of a boost mentally and i could do with that right now mate.
so you suggesting 10 days of 500iu everyday? i was under the assumtion you were looking at much bigger shots than that?
did you not quote 500iu would not tickle the testicles? or is that 500iu per week?
i just want to be clear before i buy anything. does anybody else think this is my best approach, i know you are clued up on this det-oak its just i want everybody to agree this is the best protocol to go with, hope you dont take it to offence, this is a really big thing to me, if this dosent raise my levels im screwed really and its back to the drawing board.
what chance do you give this rasing my levels?
is it ok if i carry on taking zma, trib and daa?
and what about the proviron he suggests? it sounds good to give me a bit of a boost mentally and i could do with that right now mate.
so you suggesting 10 days of 500iu everyday? i was under the assumtion you were looking at much bigger shots than that?
did you not quote 500iu would not tickle the testicles? or is that 500iu per week?
i just want to be clear before i buy anything. does anybody else think this is my best approach, i know you are clued up on this det-oak its just i want everybody to agree this is the best protocol to go with, hope you dont take it to offence, this is a really big thing to me, if this dosent raise my levels im screwed really and its back to the drawing board.
what chance do you give this rasing my levels?
is it ok if i carry on taking zma, trib and daa?
Last edited:
THE-DET-OAK
IncreasedMyT @ ULV
you dont need high doses of HCG cause you did not run a strong cycle, and you didnt run it for long either.
500 a week will not tickle the testes, but 3500 a week sure will.
the guys suggesting 2500iu shots are guys that run progestins and test for months at a time.
trust me when i say 500iu ED for ten days will have your dick hard than a rock, and spraying the ceiling like a wagner paint sprayer, as my friend Chip would say.
besides without blood tests we can not be sure, so this is a good starting point.
Proviron is a waste for you, since your not running test. the people tht suggested that are prolly dumb enough to think they can use that as an AI.
500 a week will not tickle the testes, but 3500 a week sure will.
the guys suggesting 2500iu shots are guys that run progestins and test for months at a time.
trust me when i say 500iu ED for ten days will have your dick hard than a rock, and spraying the ceiling like a wagner paint sprayer, as my friend Chip would say.
besides without blood tests we can not be sure, so this is a good starting point.
Proviron is a waste for you, since your not running test. the people tht suggested that are prolly dumb enough to think they can use that as an AI.
THE-DET-OAK
IncreasedMyT @ ULV
BTW I have articles that show trib actually inhibits endogenous T production.
You ease my mind det-oaks
i am currently waiting for my guy to get back to me with prices and im ready to go.so just to clarify -
10 days of hgc at 500iu a day
wait 4 days
then run 4 weeks nolva/clomid at 20/50mg per day?
and in your opinion this is going to get my test level going again and stop the dysfunction and lack of drive?
meaning? negative effect or no effect?
what about zma and daa?
also what do you mean by having no blood tests? I am due a visit to my doctor on tuesday so i can get information on my bloods done if that would help. I am not going to start this week or possibly next, im hoping for a possibly 7th feb start.
Last edited:
BiGnNasty
Bulking
Man for being ur first 2 cycles u went heavy as hell. i wouldve just gone with test e for 10 weeks. and clomid alone for ur pct was not enough so next go around i suggest u read up on cycling b4 just buying a bunch of shit. Good luck tho this is a very good thread and DET OAK u r funny as shit Dood!!! LMAO
I know this now mate, but iv also been told that these arnt that heavy aswell :s
As i said i took some advice that was way off the mark about my cycles and now no longer speak to that person because of this, im paying for it now and have been the last 6 months. I wont be going near the gear again. i just want my levels normal enough to function. Iv learnt my lesson and hopefully the thread will help others.
i only took nolva mate at 20/10/10/10/10/10 which probably isnt even as effective as clomid
Im just concentrating on gettin myself up and running again because at the minute im a mess.
Last edited:
THE-DET-OAK
IncreasedMyT @ ULV
get a full male hormone panel while you are there.
include:
total testosterone
free roaming testosterone
estradiol
prolactin
thyroid
lipid profile
im sure im forgetting some things but test/estro/prolactin are what i feel are most important at this point.
tell your doc you MUST have them checked, dont take no for an answer. bring results back t this thread before starting anything.
BiGnNasty
Bulking
Its not that its not as effective its just that its a very weak dose and for a cycle that heavy or any cycle for that matter nolva is weak for post cycle therapy (pct). Clomid must be included if u opt to have Nolva in ur PCT and the Dosages need to be much higher. Do u have gyno problems? u r very lucky to say the least that u still can produce test naturally IMO. U came to the right place as well. Good Luck
Primordial Performance
New member
Do you have the full text of this reference?
THE-DET-OAK
IncreasedMyT @ ULV
No. Only abstracts and PDF are available for that study. I posted the full text on the other I posted though, another that shows there was no leveling of T production.
I dont understand what you point is here? In case you didnt know, in science its really hard to prove a negative. It is much easier to prove a positive, although you still cant come up with a single study proving desensitization, until you can come up with that you are on your own, I have provided ample evidence that it does not occur, as much that is humanly possible to prove a negative.
I have recieved sufficient feedback on this thread to know that your argument has been laid to rest, so it is your turn to actually provide something worthwhile to this thread........................
It is also blatanly obvious that you are to good to take the time to actually read what I posted, otherwise you would not have even asked if the full text was available on that study.
Stop grasping and please prove me wrong with your own literature..................
I dont understand what you point is here? In case you didnt know, in science its really hard to prove a negative. It is much easier to prove a positive, although you still cant come up with a single study proving desensitization, until you can come up with that you are on your own, I have provided ample evidence that it does not occur, as much that is humanly possible to prove a negative.
I have recieved sufficient feedback on this thread to know that your argument has been laid to rest, so it is your turn to actually provide something worthwhile to this thread........................
It is also blatanly obvious that you are to good to take the time to actually read what I posted, otherwise you would not have even asked if the full text was available on that study.
Stop grasping and please prove me wrong with your own literature..................
Last edited:
When sent for my last 3 tests i know he got more results back than just the 12.8. Im unsure that there was anymore than 3 or 4 figures on the screen.
As said im booked in him with him tuesday, ill see what other results he has, if not and i need more bloods, I can then race down to the clinic that day to have them taken and have results by friday if need be.
Will you be changing the course based on these results or can i go ahead and order 5000 hcg along with the clomid and nolva, my guy is hard to get hold of as he never answers calls often so im looking to order asap or i could be waiting a while, something i really dont want to do.
about the trib, whats up with that?
must say the zma have been making me sleep a lot better and waking up alot fresher, instead of worrying all night and having sleepless nights.
and i have sum daa on the way aswell.
As said im booked in him with him tuesday, ill see what other results he has, if not and i need more bloods, I can then race down to the clinic that day to have them taken and have results by friday if need be.
Will you be changing the course based on these results or can i go ahead and order 5000 hcg along with the clomid and nolva, my guy is hard to get hold of as he never answers calls often so im looking to order asap or i could be waiting a while, something i really dont want to do.
about the trib, whats up with that?
must say the zma have been making me sleep a lot better and waking up alot fresher, instead of worrying all night and having sleepless nights.
and i have sum daa on the way aswell.
Last edited:
BiGnNasty
Bulking
Trib is a natural test booster. If u r having sleepless night i reccomend Melatonin its like $2 and u can get it at walmart or any grocery store. That shit puts me down and Im 244 lbs
THE-DET-OAK
IncreasedMyT @ ULV
I would get the HCG just in case you need it.
If you have the oppurtunity to get bloods done before starting therapy then I would do it. What if it is in your head? what if your T leels are fine? if thats the case then we dont want to inhibit your endogenous LH will HCG.
what if prolactin is causing the issue? bottomline without blood tests all anyone can do is guess, since you can get them done real quick and have them by friday it makes sense to see whats really going on before jumping on anything.
If you have the oppurtunity to get bloods done before starting therapy then I would do it. What if it is in your head? what if your T leels are fine? if thats the case then we dont want to inhibit your endogenous LH will HCG.
what if prolactin is causing the issue? bottomline without blood tests all anyone can do is guess, since you can get them done real quick and have them by friday it makes sense to see whats really going on before jumping on anything.
Similar threads
