Moral/Ethical Dilemma. Need some help fellas :/ KRATOM RELATED

[jozifp103]

Ok guys...I know most of you aren't doctors so if you feel uncomfortable giving advice on this I understand. Just know that no one will be held responsible for the advice they give.

Problem:

A good friend and EX heroin addict who has been sober for 3 years had a bad relapse and disappeared for 4 days....Had a long talk with him and got him going back to meetings and hooked him up with a decent job as a sous chef at a five star restaurant. He was there all of two weeks before he relapsed again. This time woke up in jail because he passed out in his car with it running in a school parking lot. I spoke with my friend who's the head chef and he is willing to give him another shot as a favor to me.

My dilemma is involving KRATOM. I've read it can and has been used (off label) to help people cope with opiate withdrawals. He has been on Suboxone which I feel isn't much better than the opiates themselves.

I saw him this past weekend at a friends wedding and drunkenly told him I had a bunch of Kratom at home. IDIOT....I know. Stupid mistake. He's been up my ass since saturday texting me non-stop asking for some.

Would it be a big mistake to give him some to help him with the withdrawals? To me it seems he's past the dope sick stage. I really want to just let him recover naturally with his own will power but if he relapses again or OD's and I could have possibly prevented it, i think it goes without saying that it's going to take a huge toll on me emotionally.

If you're comfortable chiming in on this...I'd love to get some opinions.

Thanks fellas

 

[halfwit]

Hi, opiate addict here.


He won't be clean until he's ready. My loving wife tricked me into going sober by saying that the doctor's office would no longer refill any scripts. It wasn't easy, and I remember trying every possible angle I could think of to bribe/trick/cajole/threaten my way into getting more drugs back into my system.

I think it took me about three weeks (I never got into the IV side of things) to completely get over it and stop begging/pleading for more. After that it was learning how to fill the hole left when your synapses are no longer having sex with drug molecules.

It's a hard addiction to break, but it is completely doable with the proper support. He has to want it too. I personally will not touch kratom because I've read about the similarities to opiods, and I refuse to take the risk of relapse unless I'm in a metric fuck-ton of pain.

My vote is no. He needs to learn to live without that blanket of "I don't give a fuuuuuuuuck", or he'll never recover fully.

My .02c

 

[tx045]

Halfwit is right, he won't quit unless it's really wants to. On another note I have seen suboxem help/work. I had a friend who is a beast of a dude pretty much destroyed by his addiction to opiates. The suboxem was a first step and if it wasn't at least for them he might've never taken it.

 

[blakey]

Get him down the gym mate your a rep for psl get him some test and maybe d Bol transfer that addiction over to aas and the gym
And if he still needs a little something something at the end of the day go smoke a joint with him transfer addictions isn't the best way but it sure dose work

 

[Thedroidstr]

Was this a Michelin 5 star restaurant? Or 5 stars on yelp? Lol
Anyway he will never quit unless he is ready. Suboxone is like methadone, both are effective but one needs to go on a program to actually quit. Once on Suboxone or methadone they give you a "random" dose so you have no idea how much you are getting until your actually off. Sounds like he needs professional help

 

[Gainjin260]

Get him down the gym mate your a rep for psl get him some test and maybe d Bol transfer that addiction over to aas and the gym
And if he still needs a little something something at the end of the day go smoke a joint with him transfer addictions isn't the best way but it sure dose work

I like you Blakey, but this is shit advice. The acute addiction must be dealt with first and over time, perhaps, some of his addictive behavior can be channeled into healthier things. Taking him from extreme addiction to a new potential addiction would lead to heavy abuse of the later if not both the current and new "pass time".

May as well buy him a one way ticket to the Philippines.

 

[Thedroidstr]

Blakely might be on to something. I see both points but some people act in different ways. Worth a shot in my opinion.

 

[blakey]

I like you Blakey, but this is shit advice. The acute addiction must be dealt with first and over time, perhaps, some of his addictive behavior can be channeled into healthier things. Taking him from extreme addiction to a new potential addiction would lead to heavy abuse of the later if not both the current and new "pass time".

May as well buy him a one way ticket to the Philippines.

Your right brother and I like you to no homo
Transfer addiction is in no way the best way to handle a situation like this but it's tried and true and dose work I was addicted to Oxys after getting out of hospital and taking them for nearly 12 months I had enough I stopped the Oxys and just smoked a bit when needed when I found I was smoking to much I started working out and cut that right down until I got my first cycle I stopped smoking the first day of injecting test as in my mind there was no point smoking while training and taking aas
It isn't the best way that's for sure but some people have a hard time just stopping cold turkey especially if there's other factors at play anxiety or pstd form being overseas in the army

There are many roads to get where you want to go as this fello has relapsed a few times maybe it's time to try something diffrent a cycle of test or a bit of smoke has never killed anyone or left them waking up in jail after falling asleep in the car

Is it the best way no can it work maybe it did for me who knows but I sure think it's better than jail or overdosing on h

 

[jozifp103]

I know some former addicts that say steroids saved their lives. In my experience having an opiate addicted sister, cousin, and friend, it seems that addicts always need something to be addicted to. If they stop hardcore drugs, they need to transfer their addiction to something else to keep stimulating their pleasure senses. I have no issue with someone going from the dope to the juice if it will get them to live a healthier lifestyle.

In this case...he's already a big lifter/juicer but since his relapse he hasn't been eating, lifting, or doing anything really.


I think you guys are right though. He won't quit unless he wants to. He doesn't seem like he's ready to stop, which scares me.

 

[juced_porkchop]

if hes not truly ready to and wants to it wont fix the issue, BUT it is a great tool for this.. better to try this over just another relaps IMO
explain to him its a tool to use to get off and not just a replacement because it will also have longterm sides.
a low dose daily might be of help, but what he needs is cognitive therapy.

short but interesting vid> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ao8L-0nSYzg

 

[luckypaul]

Ok guys...I know most of you aren't doctors so if you feel uncomfortable giving advice on this I understand. Just know that no one will be held responsible for the advice they give.

Problem:

A good friend and EX heroin addict who has been sober for 3 years had a bad relapse and disappeared for 4 days....Had a long talk with him and got him going back to meetings and hooked him up with a decent job as a sous chef at a five star restaurant. He was there all of two weeks before he relapsed again. This time woke up in jail because he passed out in his car with it running in a school parking lot. I spoke with my friend who's the head chef and he is willing to give him another shot as a favor to me.

My dilemma is involving KRATOM. I've read it can and has been used (off label) to help people cope with opiate withdrawals. He has been on Suboxone which I feel isn't much better than the opiates themselves.

I saw him this past weekend at a friends wedding and drunkenly told him I had a bunch of Kratom at home. IDIOT....I know. Stupid mistake. He's been up my ass since saturday texting me non-stop asking for some.

Would it be a big mistake to give him some to help him with the withdrawals? To me it seems he's past the dope sick stage. I really want to just let him recover naturally with his own will power but if he relapses again or OD's and I could have possibly prevented it, i think it goes without saying that it's going to take a huge toll on me emotionally.

If you're comfortable chiming in on this...I'd love to get some opinions.

Thanks fellas

Recovering alcoholic and addict here. Cold turkey is the only thing that ever worked for me. Methadone did work for my nephew though. Sorry to hear this. It is hard on friends and family.

 

[soldier74]

U have to realize that u have no control whatsoever in the choices he makes Joz. Its liken the old saying, u can lead a horse to water but u can't make him drink. As a recovering addict, I believe all the advise u need has been given, along with some total trash advise. U decide whats what. Share it with him and he will make a choice. It ain't rocket science.
On another note, I was sober and clean for four years before I ever touched AAS. I believe if I would have jumped from one addiction to using AAS, that that the AAS use would have quickly turned into another addiction. But that's just me.

 

[blakey]

I don't think my advice is rubbish of course the addict in any situation needs to want to stop
I wanted to stop taking pain pills from the moment I started taking them every week I would tell myself this is the last time no more ect then the next week I would be back to the doctors getting more
It worked for me i don't drink I barley smoke once in a blue moon and I do moderate aas cycles of course I wanted to stop for myself for my partner for my son but lifting keeps me going and is something I can put my energy into and running a cycle is the icing on the cake I think I'll always be an addict I don't think that will ever change I just choose what I want to be addicted to and better it's lifting and a bit of aas than the latter all I know is any day I please I can walk into a doctors office and get pain killers but I don't so it works for this fella
Each to their own just don't bash something because you don't understand it

 

[bigtimechief]

Jozifp103, i feel for your friend, i really do. Him blowing up your phone is because he wants to get high, not because he wants to get better. I've been there, and it was the lowest point in my life. The birth of my bodybuilding journey was the result of an opiate addiction. Hell, i would get addicted to anything. It's been in my make-up, and it's something I've had to carefully watch.

I have kids now, a good business, and bodybuilding aspirations. None of that would have been possible had I not hit ROCK BOTTOM. I gave up anything that got me high, and started chasing my dream physique.

I can occasionally indulge in certain drugs if i choose, but it's with a whole different attitude. I've tried kratom, and it does have abuse potential, so i let it go. (I was looking for something to keep me relaxed during tough contest prep periods.) I made a post about this recently.

Even though Kratom has helped addicts, it's the attitude behind its use that'll yield positive or negative results. It appears to me your friend is desperate to get high, and will most likely be disappointed with kratom's results. There's a good chance that he won't get what he's looking for, and he'll reach for the heroin.

I really do hate to hear someone going through what he's going through. He needs time away from the drugs, and needs to find a healthy alternative. He has a battle ahead, and i wish him the best.

 

[jozifp103]

if hes not truly ready to and wants to it wont fix the issue, BUT it is a great tool for this.. better to try this over just another relaps IMO
explain to him its a tool to use to get off and not just a replacement because it will also have longterm sides.
a low dose daily might be of help, but what he needs is cognitive therapy.

short but interesting vid> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ao8L-0nSYzg

Thank you JP. After pondering this issue over the weekend I've decided not to give him anything but tough love. He doesn't need an tools, he needs to better himself mentally. He's a weak person, always has been, and it shows in everything he does. He's lazy and doesn't want to work for anything. He thinks there's a pill and quick fix for everything. I told him to cut the shit and man up. To stop relying on things other than your self to get better. I'm tired of it. He's a man with a dick and two balls swinging between his legs....it's time to start acting like it and not like a teenage girl.

U have to realize that u have no control whatsoever in the choices he makes Joz. Its liken the old saying, u can lead a horse to water but u can't make him drink. As a recovering addict, I believe all the advise u need has been given, along with some total trash advise. U decide whats what. Share it with him and he will make a choice. It ain't rocket science.
On another note, I was sober and clean for four years before I ever touched AAS. I believe if I would have jumped from one addiction to using AAS, that that the AAS use would have quickly turned into another addiction. But that's just me.

I agree brother. I have considered all opinions and was able to weed out any bad advice.

I do think he was/is addicted to AAS. For one, he's been on for years so he has no chance of recovering, and 2 because when he was sober, all he did was pin, munch orals and lift. Never made much progress despite running stupid doses. He's also running tren E at 700mg during all this chaos. He refuses to come off the tren despite my strong recommendation. I know for me, tren can put me in a bad spot and that's the last thing he needs right now. You're right, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. At this point he's just pissing me off.

Jozifp103, i feel for your friend, i really do. Him blowing up your phone is because he wants to get high, not because he wants to get better. I've been there, and it was the lowest point in my life. The birth of my bodybuilding journey was the result of an opiate addiction. Hell, i would get addicted to anything. It's been in my make-up, and it's something I've had to carefully watch.

I have kids now, a good business, and bodybuilding aspirations. None of that would have been possible had I not hit ROCK BOTTOM. I gave up anything that got me high, and started chasing my dream physique.

I can occasionally indulge in certain drugs if i choose, but it's with a whole different attitude. I've tried kratom, and it does have abuse potential, so i let it go. (I was looking for something to keep me relaxed during tough contest prep periods.) I made a post about this recently.

Even though Kratom has helped addicts, it's the attitude behind its use that'll yield positive or negative results. It appears to me your friend is desperate to get high, and will most likely be disappointed with kratom's results. There's a good chance that he won't get what he's looking for, and he'll reach for the heroin.

I really do hate to hear someone going through what he's going through. He needs time away from the drugs, and needs to find a healthy alternative. He has a battle ahead, and i wish him the best.

You're 100% spot on bro which is why I basically told him to fuck off. I can't watch him make dumb decisions and act like a depressed teenager anymore. I told him to man up and stop relying on other things to get better. It's time for him to find his inner strength and realize that his issues are caused by his inner weakness. I know his type, and it's time for him to cut the shit.

 

[soldier74]

Thank you JP. After pondering this issue over the weekend I've decided not to give him anything but tough love. He doesn't need an tools, he needs to better himself mentally. He's a weak person, always has been, and it shows in everything he does. He's lazy and doesn't want to work for anything. He thinks there's a pill and quick fix for everything. I told him to cut the shit and man up. To stop relying on things other than your self to get better. I'm tired of it. He's a man with a dick and two balls swinging between his legs....it's time to start acting like it and not like a teenage girl.

I agree brother. I have considered all opinions and was able to weed out any bad advice.

I do think he was/is addicted to AAS. For one, he's been on for years so he has no chance of recovering, and 2 because when he was sober, all he did was pin, munch orals and lift. Never made much progress despite running stupid doses. He's also running tren E at 700mg during all this chaos. He refuses to come off the tren despite my strong recommendation. I know for me, tren can put me in a bad spot and that's the last thing he needs right now. You're right, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. At this point he's just pissing me off.


You're 100% spot on bro which is why I basically told him to fuck off. I can't watch him make dumb decisions and act like a depressed teenager anymore. I told him to man up and stop relying on other things to get better. It's time for him to find his inner strength and realize that his issues are caused by his inner weakness. I know his type, and it's time for him to cut the shit.

Yeah, it's an old saying I've always liked. Maybe cuz it has applied to me and my hard headed ass so many times in my life. But if you have ever tried to get a horse to do or move a way it doesn't want to, IT AINT HAPPENING, lol. All the tren in the world a aint gonna help you move that stubborn ass animal. So as it is with people...Facts won't work, scare tactics wont work, yelling or being nice won't work. Not until said person WANTS to make a change..IT AINT HAPPENING

 

[jozifp103]

Well small update for anyone who cares lol. He moved into a sober house and is off all meds (besides the juice). He stopped bothering me other than to give me positive updates on his bodybuilding progress, which i don't mind hearing about. Supposedly the cravings are getting less and less by the day and his appetite is coming back. Gained 15 lbs (rebound from not eating) and he actually looks pretty good. He used to have a dull, lifeless stare that would almost creep you out but now he has that life back in his eyes. Let's hope it continues this way. I'm not naive and I know that anything can happen, but i'm holding on to the times when he's doing well.

I honestly don't care or mind that he uses AAS because at least it will give him something to put his mind and energy into that can benefit him. If it makes him happy and isn't going to kill him then I'm all for it. Just gotta get him to be a bit smarter about it.

 

[soldier74]

Well small update for anyone who cares lol. He moved into a sober house and is off all meds (besides the juice). He stopped bothering me other than to give me positive updates on his bodybuilding progress, which i don't mind hearing about. Supposedly the cravings are getting less and less by the day and his appetite is coming back. Gained 15 lbs (rebound from not eating) and he actually looks pretty good. He used to have a dull, lifeless stare that would almost creep you out but now he has that life back in his eyes. Let's hope it continues this way. I'm not naive and I know that anything can happen, but i'm holding on to the times when he's doing well.

I honestly don't care or mind that he uses AAS because at least it will give him something to put his mind and energy into that can benefit him. If it makes him happy and isn't going to kill him then I'm all for it. Just gotta get him to be a bit smarter about it.

I've been in your friends shoes before and all I.can say is I hope he realizes he is blessed to have a true friend right now like u bro. Usually by the time we get.to rehab we have been disowned and for good reason...if you're know what.I mean.

 

[49ER]

I quit drugs for 8 years until i touched aas wish i would have been able to substitute my addiction sooner lol

 

[blakey]

Well small update for anyone who cares lol. He moved into a sober house and is off all meds (besides the juice). He stopped bothering me other than to give me positive updates on his bodybuilding progress, which i don't mind hearing about. Supposedly the cravings are getting less and less by the day and his appetite is coming back. Gained 15 lbs (rebound from not eating) and he actually looks pretty good. He used to have a dull, lifeless stare that would almost creep you out but now he has that life back in his eyes. Let's hope it continues this way. I'm not naive and I know that anything can happen, but i'm holding on to the times when he's doing well.

I honestly don't care or mind that he uses AAS because at least it will give him something to put his mind and energy into that can benefit him. If it makes him happy and isn't going to kill him then I'm all for it. Just gotta get him to be a bit smarter about it.

Good to hear brother