More and More Failed PCTs...

Cashout, I am starting my pct in 1 week, I have 2- 5000 iu bottles of hcg. Should i mix 1ml of bac h20 or 2ml? And do i have enough to do 2000 eod as you recommend? If not what would the ratio be at 1500 iu eod for 10 days? Sorry if this seems like a dumb question, I just don't wanna *uck this up... Thanks

1500 per shot ***may be enough***

I've seen a couple of folks use 1500 per shot before and I have used 1500 once myself. When I did it, it worked but my numbers weren't quite as high on the first blood draw compared to when I used 2000.

That is why I recommend 2000 per shot.

10,000 is what you have. 1500 per shot for ten shots EOD you would need 15,000. So you need 5000 more ius of HCG.

You will be doing 10 shots don't worry about the amount of water you have calculate off of the total iu of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) you have. Just take the total amount and divide it out over 10 shots evenly. Then you'll know you have about 1500 in each regardless of how much water that is.

Although insulin is a little differnt in terms of IU measurements, I suggest you use 1/2 cc insulin pins since it makes it a lot easier to estimate since they are already marked in IUs.
 
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I ask because Nolva will not work for me since I am on zoloft.

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Interactions between your selected drugs
tamoxifen <---> sertraline

Applies to: Nolvadex (tamoxifen), Zoloft (sertraline)

GENERALLY AVOID: Chronic coadministration of potent or moderate CYP450 2D6 inhibitors including certain antidepressants may reduce the effectiveness of tamoxifen. The proposed mechanism is inhibition of tamoxifen bioactivation via CYP450 2D6 to endoxifen (4-hydroxy-N-desmethyltamoxifen), the active metabolite that may be responsible for much of tamoxifen's antiestrogenic activity. This is consistent with studies that reported poorer clinical outcome (e.g., increased breast cancer recurrence; shorter relapse-free periods; lower rates of event-free survival) and decreased incidence/severity of hot flashes in patients treated with tamoxifen who have genetic polymorphisms of CYP450 2D6 resulting in reduced or absent enzyme activity. A similar relationship has been observed between endoxifen exposure and alterations in CYP450 2D6 metabolic status, whether due to CYP450 2D6 genetic variants or use of CYP450 2D6 inhibitors such as quinidine or SSRI antidepressants. In a study of 12 patients receiving tamoxifen adjuvant therapy, mean plasma concentrations of endoxifen decreased by more than 50% after four weeks of paroxetine 10 mg/day for hot flashes, and the effect was evident primarily in patients who carried the wild-type genotype for CYP450 2D6 (i.e., extensive metabolizers). In vitro, quinidine reduced the conversion to endoxifen by 79%. Potential clinical implications of this interaction were reported in a retrospective analysis of nearly 1,300 female breast cancer patients who were newly prescribed tamoxifen between 2003 and 2005 and were monitored for at least two years (mean 2.7 years). Women who used a moderate to potent CYP450 2D6 inhibitor (n=353) during tamoxifen therapy had a two-year breast cancer recurrence rate of 13.9%, compared to 7.5% for those not taking any CYP450 2D6 inhibitors (n=945). The average duration of concomitant tamoxifen and CYP450 2D6 inhibitor use was 340 days. In a subset analysis of patients taking tamoxifen with SSRI antidepressants, a breast cancer recurrence rate of 16% was reported for 213 women who used fluoxetine, paroxetine, or sertraline--SSRIs that are considered moderate to potent inhibitors of CYP450 2D6. This rate was 2.2 times higher than that for women taking tamoxifen without CYP450 2D6 inhibitors. In contrast, the breast cancer recurrence rate was 8.8% for 137 women using citalopram, escitalopram, or fluvoxamine, which was not statistically different than controls. An earlier, smaller study conducted by a group of Danish researchers also reported no reduction of tamoxifen effectiveness in association with citalopram or escitalopram use for up to five years. It is important to note that not all studies have found an association between CYP450 2D6 activity and tamoxifen clinical effects. In fact, a couple of studies even reported decreased risk of recurrence in patients treated with tamoxifen who have a common genetic variant of CYP450 2D6. Investigators suggest that the discrepancies may be due to differences in study designs, including sample size, different genetic models for the assessment of phenotypes, and stratification effects.
fects on CYP450 2D6. Alternatively, aromatase inhibitors such as anastrozole, exemestane, and letrozole may be appropriate substitutes for tamoxifen in certain patients

_____________________________________

what about Toremifene instead of nolva








.

I already stated I use Nolva for a specific reason - because of the synergy with clomid.

I know you use Zoloft, you already told us that. I don't know anything about those type of drugs. I've never used them or studied them and I am not going to give you advice on something that I don't know anything about.

I don't recommend other things because I don't know how they will work in the mix I have already created with this PCT.
 
Cashout, do you like to inject your HCG? Stomach? Also when injecting 2000ius do you do it all at once? I just ask cause it seems 2000 is going to be a lot of liquid going in, do you need to do like half of it then an hour or so later do the other half? I know that might be a stupid question but I am a noob to HCG.
 
Cashout, do you like to inject your HCG? Stomach? Also when injecting 2000ius do you do it all at once? I just ask cause it seems 2000 is going to be a lot of liquid going in, do you need to do like half of it then an hour or so later do the other half? I know that might be a stupid question but I am a noob to HCG.

I inject subQ on the stomach and all at one. It is a water-based substrate so it disperses almost instantly.
 
OK we need to stick this. I have always read Scally's PCT methods and he says the same things, that were starting PCT too soon.

you tell people this and its like blasphemy.

we should be the first to have it at the top of the board, The PCT Epidemic :)
 
OK we need to stick this. I have always read Scally's PCT methods and he says the same things, that were starting PCT too soon.

you tell people this and its like blasphemy.

we should be the first to have it at the top of the board, The PCT Epidemic :)

I couldnt agree more det...this needs to get stuck.

People need to see this because there is so much wrong instilled in many minds...lets start the epidemic!
 
Cash, one more thing. My friend has been on AAS for 16 years and he said he prefers Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) IM instead of Sub Q.

Have you heard of others doing this method? Is there pros and cons to IM vs. SubQ?
 
Cash, one more thing. My friend has been on AAS for 16 years and he said he prefers Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) IM instead of Sub Q.

Have you heard of others doing this method? Is there pros and cons to IM vs. SubQ?

IM is fine. Pretty much anything you can inject IM can be injected sub q...the only difference is the absorption times (which in this case makes no difference).
 
Cash, one more thing. My friend has been on AAS for 16 years and he said he prefers Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) IM instead of Sub Q.

Have you heard of others doing this method? Is there pros and cons to IM vs. SubQ?

Its a water-based suspension so it disperses almost instantly regardless of where it is injected.

There is no difference.
 
Thanks for the response about the AI.

Why do you continue the Aromatase inhibitor (AI) longer than the SERM and not have the SERM continue longer than the AI? Wouldn't the Aromatase inhibitor (AI) affect lipid profiles longer (I believe this is the case with arimidex, right?)?

I like the reasoning behind your post cycle therapy (pct) and will use it for my next cycle.
 
Thanks for the response about the AI.

Why do you continue the Aromatase inhibitor (AI) longer than the SERM and not have the SERM continue longer than the AI? Wouldn't the Aromatase inhibitor (AI) affect lipid profiles longer (I believe this is the case with arimidex, right?)?

I like the reasoning behind your post cycle therapy (pct) and will use it for my next cycle.

Taper the Aromatase inhibitor (AI) out slowly to avoid any estrogen rebound. If that rebound happens it cold escalate E2 levels to a point where the feedback loop picks up the signal and thinks there is to much test in the system and ques a shutdown of LH and FSH.

Lipid profiles are a trade off in this case. I am willing to accept short term impacts of HDL and LDL numbers as a trade off for full restoration of the HPTA.
 
What's your opinion of tapering the HCG? So let's say instead do 4000iu, then 3500iu, then 3000iu, etc.

Also, how many IU's does it become detrimental (so in the above example 4000iu)?

Why the 10 shots of the same IU and instead not taper down or take bigger doses in fewer shots (for instance double the dose, half the shots)?
 
What's your opinion of tapering the HCG? So let's say instead do 4000iu, then 3500iu, then 3000iu, etc.

Also, how many IU's does it become detrimental (so in the above example 4000iu)?

Why the 10 shots of the same IU and instead not taper down or take bigger doses in fewer shots (for instance double the dose, half the shots)?

I have found that above 2000 there is a significant increase in aromatization both intratesticular and system wide and from the blood work I've also come to realize that above 2000 dosen't significantly increase additional testicular activity.

The 10 shots are EOD because the response to the pulsing pattern seems to be more effective at stimulation than a daily application in a steady state. I have only my own sample from which to draw that inference but it has been effective.

I actually started with an EOD pattern for a two weeks. That was for a total of 7 shots. That is what Dr. Fred Hatfield suggested initially. I found that my test levels actually climbed higher by adding 3 additional shots in the 3rd week. Hence the 3 weeks I now suggest.
 
Hey guys i dread to think of what im going to get told here but i may aswell ask if what i am doing is correct... i am currently 4 weeks through this...

- 10weeks of Sus/tren (10week total)
- Further 2 weeks of just Sus (12 Week total)
- 2weeks of nothing
- 4 weeks of Aromasin and Nolvadex

Then 16weeks off and then start over again (if i go for round 2)...

it works out to be about 2ml sus a week and 3ml Tren as i work with a pattern i have been Advised to use:

-1ml Sus & Tren
Miss a Day
-1ml Tren
Miss a Day
-1ml Sus & Tren
Miss a Day
-1ml Tren
(you get the point :P )

But i am not 100% of what to do about the post cycle therapy (pct)? i was also wondering if someone could give me some advice on what i would need to do?
 
Just wanted to update and thank Cashout for laying this thread out. I'm in my last few days of post cycle therapy (pct) now.

post cycle therapy (pct) consists of: 50mg Clomid, 40/40/20/20 nolvadex, 5mg Vitamin C, 20mg Aromasin, 5mg Creatine every day.

I was on all prop esters, so I waited 8 days after my last shot of test/mast to start my Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) Blast. I did 10 days of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) at 500iu's per day. I then waited one day and started serms.

I have to say this is a relatively "crashless" post cycle therapy (pct). I've been feeling great the whole time..still have libido, no ED etc. Not like when on cycle but not bad at all!

I also have kept most of my gains. I did not gain all that much weight on cycle..maybe 7 lbs...because I was doing a carb cycle the entire time with a lot of cardio...so by gains I don't mean weight...I mean what the mirror is telling me.

I will have blood tests in a few weeks to confirm if I recovered. I "feel" like I have been but only the bloods will tell. Thanks again!
 
I've addressed most of this in this thread already...

Clomid an Nolva, like many substances do present some degree of hepatoxic effect. In more than 20 years, I've never seen a single person hit a clinical level of of AST or ALT from using either or both. In fact, I have rarely ever seen one's AST and ALT even double baseline when using these compounds. So, the hepatoxic issues is not rally a concern when the effects occur in the very short term and return to normal quickly as they do with these drugs.

As far as the other sides, visual effects, ect...all drugs have sides these are no different. I am willing to accept some sides if this is the most effective way to restore the full function of the HPTA. So far it has proven to be.

I don't suggest Torm because I've seen lots of guys use it and it has not proven to be as effective as the combination of clomid and nolva. Look around here and you'll see lots of post cycle therapy (pct)s done using Torm that did not cut the mustard at restoring the HPTA.

I use Letro because I have found it to be most effective at controlling estrogen related sides that are likely to occur from the use of higher dosages of HCG. Adex to but the dosage will likely have to be adjusted upward significantly to compensate for the much higher level of intartesticular aromatization that will result from the HCG.

No I don't advocate Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) during cycle IF it is going to be used by one as an excuse not to do a full post cycle therapy (pct). That means a full blast phase, SERMS, and an Aromatase inhibitor (AI). That is what I find happens a lot when guys use Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) on cycle.

Cashout - I have a few questions for you that I have not seen answered in the articles you've written. I had a post cycle therapy (pct) planned out, but after reading your article, you have just about convinced me to follow your protocol. I just have some questions:

You advocate the use of the SERMS Clomid and Nova because they work well for the purposes you suggest - but - they have a side effect profile that isn't ideal, particularly Nova. There are several studies that demonstrate hepatatoxic activity in both of this ancillaries, but particularly with Nova. Both drugs also increase the risk of thrombis related incidents from stroke, visual deficit, and so on.

These are relatively older medications and newer SERMs have been developed... have you ever used Toremifene? I have seen several people advocate Toremifene as a replacement for the Clomid/Nova combination post cycle therapy (pct). It still has undesirable sides, but they do not seem to be as significant. Sides should also be smaller taking one SERM rather than 2. What are your feelings on this?

Is there a particular reason you choose Letro over another AI? I've been using arimidex on my current cycle. Would you switch to letro post cycle therapy (pct) or could arimidex be used an an acceptable substitute?

Finally, do you advocate the use of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) during cycle? If so, how much and how often?

Thanks!
 
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