Drveejay11
I am banned!
I recall a recent inquiry from a memebr stating that he read over at CEM that it's counter-productive to run T-3 with GH as it inactivates HGH to a degree.
Thoughts?
Thoughts?
Use of T-3 in conjunction with HGH
- Thread starter Drveejay11
- Start date
Bimmer
New member
This is JMO and is not a fact but in theory it would. Gh builds while T# breaks down. Since your metabolism is going you nutrients are being used so they are not as availble for growth. Its like using Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) to prevent muscle loss while dieting with T3.
Drveejay11 said:
i am very interested in knowing more about this topic also. i have always seemed to have decent fat burning effects with GH alone...however i would like to know if the 2 could be run in conjunction, or if it would be counter productive.
great question Drveejay11!!
god bless
HGH induced hypothyroidism. Think of it this way. HGH turns your body, from a carb burning machine, into a fat burning machine. This slows the metabolism down. T3 (cytomel) or Armour compensates. Just ask the guys and gals who stack these for fat loss.
Drveejay11
I am banned!
JohnnyB said:
^ (JB: do you have that CEM thread handy?)
JohnnyB
Community Veteran
Here's the excerpt
Countering T3 induced muscle loss with Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) or prohormones makes sense from a physiological viewpoint as well. Thyroid hormone muscle protein breakdown is mainly mediated via the so-called ubiquitin-proteasome pathway. (12). (There are several independent metabolic pathways of protein breakdown in the body. For instance, another pathway, the lysosomal pathway, is responsible for the accelerated rate of muscle protein breakdown during and after exercise.) Testosterone administration has been shown to decrease ubiquitin-proteasome activity. (13) So Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) specifically target the muscle protein breakdown process stimulated by T3.
What may not be an effective strategy to maintain muscle mass during a T3 cycle is the use of exogenous growth hormone (GH). Studies have shown that when GH and T3 are administered concurrently, the increased nitrogen retention normally associated with GH use is abolished. This has been attributed to the observation that T3 increases levels of insulin like growth factor binding protein, reducing the bioavailability of igf-1 (14). Nevertheless, GH has fat burning properties independent of igf-1, so using GH with T3 would act additively to speed fat burning, but with little if any preservation of lean body mass. So again, if GH is used in conjunction with T3, anabolic steroid/prohormone use would be indicated.
The article is here, http://magazine.mindandmuscle.net/
it's called "Thyroid Hormone for Weight Loss: Physiologic and Metabolic Effects
by Nandi"
JohnnyB
Countering T3 induced muscle loss with Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) or prohormones makes sense from a physiological viewpoint as well. Thyroid hormone muscle protein breakdown is mainly mediated via the so-called ubiquitin-proteasome pathway. (12). (There are several independent metabolic pathways of protein breakdown in the body. For instance, another pathway, the lysosomal pathway, is responsible for the accelerated rate of muscle protein breakdown during and after exercise.) Testosterone administration has been shown to decrease ubiquitin-proteasome activity. (13) So Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) specifically target the muscle protein breakdown process stimulated by T3.
What may not be an effective strategy to maintain muscle mass during a T3 cycle is the use of exogenous growth hormone (GH). Studies have shown that when GH and T3 are administered concurrently, the increased nitrogen retention normally associated with GH use is abolished. This has been attributed to the observation that T3 increases levels of insulin like growth factor binding protein, reducing the bioavailability of igf-1 (14). Nevertheless, GH has fat burning properties independent of igf-1, so using GH with T3 would act additively to speed fat burning, but with little if any preservation of lean body mass. So again, if GH is used in conjunction with T3, anabolic steroid/prohormone use would be indicated.
The article is here, http://magazine.mindandmuscle.net/
it's called "Thyroid Hormone for Weight Loss: Physiologic and Metabolic Effects
by Nandi"
JohnnyB
Last edited:
Drveejay11
I am banned!
WOW........great post JB. Its implications on these bb'ing forums is significant IMO (for GH users). Thanks
I've made some significant inquiries on this subject. Nandi originally posted that T3 is contraindicated with gh. Nandi is pretty much at the top of the pharmacology knowledge food chain IMO.
Here is the link to one of the follow up threads I started on the topic, which includes quotes of some of the studies and thoughts Nandi posted on the subject.
http://www.cuttingedgemuscle.com/Forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7881&highlight=Growth+and+Nandi
Here is the thread copied and pasted:
CONTEST ENTRY - Should T3 be added to a cycle of GH and androgens?
Title of the post:
Maybe we shouldn't run T3 with GH
Nandi's apparent opinion on this runs counter to what most people advice. I wanted to get some more input on the subject and see if it could be fleshed out.
I posted this on 10-28-2003 at http://anabolicfitness.infopop.net/...73&m=2073043357
Thoughts on this?
Here is one of Nandi12's posts on the subject.
"There is another study I like a lot; it took me a minute to dig the xerox copy out of my files. They looked at combinations of T3, T3 plus GH, and T3 plus anavar on weight loss and nitrogen retention in several subjects. As an illustrative example, in their patient #4, for 12 days with a washout period between treatments, they gave either T3 (150 mcg/day); T3 plus GH (5 mg/day = 15 IU/day) or T3 plus anavar (10 mg/day)
The weight loss in gm/day was as follows:
T3: 513 gm/day; T3+GH: 107gm/day; T3+anavar: 100gm/day
The nitrogen excretion in gm/3days was:
T3: 37; T3+GH: 32; T3+anavar: 26; placebo: 32
So just like in the other study on combining T3 and GH, you can see that here the nitrogen excretion of the T3+GH was exactly the same as placebo. In other words, the T3 cancelled all anabolic benefit of the GH. Giving T3 and anavar @ 10mg/day gives almost the same weight loss as GH+T3, but preserves much more lean body mass.
It makes no sense to combime GH and T3. Combining T3 with a low dose of Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) is a much wiser strategy for losing weight and preserving muscle
J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1971 Aug;33(2):293-300
Effects of triiodothyronine, growth hormone and anabolic steroids on nitrogen excretion and oxygen consumption of obese patients.
Bray GA, Raben MS, Londono J, Gallagher TF Jr."
Here is another one of his posts from the same thread, at http://www.cuttingedgemuscle.com/Fo...ighlight=growth
There are a couple of things about the second study I find interesting. One is how much weight these obese patients were losing on the T3: over a pound a day.
The other thing is how the GH interfered with the weight loss. That is a feature of a number of other studies where large doses of GH were used; in this one 15 IU/day. Insulin resistance becomes an important factor hindering weight loss at those large GH doses. Normally the insulin like effect of IGF-1 helps by lowering the endogenous output of insulin to some degree. IGF-1 as the name implies has an insulin like effect on glucose metabolism, but without interfereing with lipolysis like insulin. So in the presence of elevated IGF-1, the body secretes less insulin, improving fat loss. The problem here I suspect is that by impairing bioavailability of IGF-1, as T3 has been shown to do, the T3 negated the fat burning effect of GH.
Water retention caused by GH is a big factor as well. This is an old study (1970) so when measuring weight loss during GH administration, they did not have access to the sophisticated equipment available today to accurately measure changes in muscle and fat mass. They probably just weighed the subjects and because of the GH induced water retention it looks like they were not losing as much fat as they possibly were.
Here is another one of Nandi12's posts on the subject.
T3 and GH use are incompatible. T3 elevates levels of IGF binding protein to the point that they render IGF-1 unbioavailable.
J Hepatol 1996 Mar;24(3):313-9
Effects of long-term growth hormone (GH) and triiodothyronine (T3) administration on functional hepatic nitrogen clearance in normal man.
Wolthers T, Grofte T, Moller N, Vilstrup H, Jorgensen JO.
Department of Medicine M (Endocrinology and Diabetes), Aarhus University Hospital, Denmark.
BACKGROUND/AIMS: A decline in urea excretion is seen following long-term growth hormone administration, reflecting overall protein anabolism. Conversely, hyperthyroidism is characterized by increased urea synthesis and negative nitrogen metabolism. These seemingly opposite effects are presumed to reflect different actions on peripheral protein metabolism. The extent to which these hormonal systems have different direct effects on hepatic urea genesis has not been fully characterized. METHODS: We measured urea nitrogen synthesis rates and blood alanine levels concomitantly before, during, and after a 4-h constant intravenous infusion of alanine (2 mmol.kg bw-1.h-1). Urea nitrogen synthesis rate was estimated hourly as urinary excretion corrected for gut hydrolysis and accumulation in body water. The slope of the linear relationship between urea nitrogen synthesis rate and alanine concentration represents the liver function as to conversion of amino-N, and is denoted the functional hepatic nitrogen clearance. Eight normal male subjects (age 21-27 years; body mass index 22.4-27.0 kg/m2) were randomly studied four times: 1) after 10 days of subcutaneous saline injections, 2) after 10 days of subcutaneous growth hormone injections (0.1 IU/kg per day), 3) after 10 days of triiodothyronine administration (40 micrograms on even dates, 20 micrograms on uneven dates) and 4) after 10 days given 2)+3). All injections were given at 20 00 h. RESULTS: Growth hormone decreased functional hepatic nitrogen clearance (l/h) by 30% (from 33.8 +/- 3.2 l/h (control) to 23.8 +/- 1.5 l/h (10 days growth hormone) (mean +/- SE) (ANOVA; p < 0.01)). Triiodothyronine did not change functional hepatic nitrogen clearance [36.7 +/- 3.2 l/h), but triiodothyronine given together with growth hormone abolished the effect of growth hormone functional hepatic nitrogen clearance [38.8 +/- 4.8 l/h). CONCLUSIONS: The results show that long-term growth hormone administration acts on liver by decreasing functional hepatic nitrogen clearance, thereby retaining amino-N in the body. Triiodothyronine has no effect on functional hepatic nitrogen clearance, but given together with growth hormone, it abolishes the effect of growth hormone on functional hepatic nitrogen clearance. A possible mechanism is the known effect of thyroid hormones in reducing the bioavailability of insulin-like growth factor-I. Thus, the effects of growth hormone and triiodothyronine on amino-N homeostasis are interdependent and to some extent exerted via interplay in their regulation of liver function as to amino-N conversion.
T3 blocks IGF-1 in the liver. Read Nandi's article on t3 that will explain it better then I ever could.
http://www.steroidology.com/forum/s...highlight=nandi
Posts: 379 | Registered: 02-06-2001
Fonz
Nuclear Wizard
posted 10-28-2003 04:24 PM
One thing Nandi fails to mention.
AAS lower T3 levels(Specially Fina) thats how the exert most of their anti-catabolic effects.
Adding T3 at a low dosage will simply bring your T3 levels back up to normal. Nothing more.
We are not talking about supra-physiological dosing, just optimization.
Adding a low dosage of T3 while on AAS+GH is a good idea. Now, if its only GH+T3, thats a different story. I would not run T3 while only on GH. I would run 7-Keto DHEA instead of the T3. Maybe even an ECA stack to increase peripheral T4-T3 conversion.
GH also gives you a mild case of insulin resistance(As do some AAS), therefore adding R-ALA is definately a good idea as well.
Fonz
"Great minds talk about ideas, average minds talk about facts, and weak minds talk about people"
---- Fonz 6/2002
Posts: 1770 | From: Mojave Desert, Nevada | Registered: 02-17-2001
Ulter
Professional Moderator.
posted 10-28-2003 05:49 PM
I really don't know of anyone using GH and T3 alone, that I can think of. It's good to know there is a reason not to do it, and why though.
I would never suggest to anyone to use T3, GH or no GH, without AS.
Posts: 10492 | From: Orlando Florida | Registered: 11-09-2000
the truth
In ferro veritas
posted 10-28-2003 08:20 PM
Am I reading the summation of the results of the first study wtong, or did the total fat loss from T-3 alone blow away the combinations T-3/GH and T-3/var?
Posts: 289 | Registered: 02-13-2001
Fonz
Nuclear Wizard
posted 10-28-2003 08:33 PM
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by the truth:
Am I reading the summation of the results of the first study wtong, or did the total fat loss from T-3 alone blow away the combinations T-3/GH and T-3/var?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Not fat loss but WEIGHT loss.
You can bet a chunk of that is muscle tissue.
Placebo(Unitrogen) = 32
T3(Unitrogen) = 37
5/32 = 15.6% increase in nitrogen loss.
523gm/day = 1.16lbs/day(I do not believe this)
They must have been quite fat, or they didn't eat even a carrot.
So, 12 days at 150mcgs T3/day = 1.16(12) = 13.92lbs weight loss.
I have never seen anybody lose that much weight with T3 before(150mcgs/day is not really THAT much).
Fonz
"Great minds talk about ideas, average minds talk about facts, and weak minds talk about people"
---- Fonz 6/2002
Posts: 1770 | From: Mojave Desert, Nevada | Registered: 02-17-2001
RefuseToLose
AF Member
posted 10-28-2003 11:01 PM
150mcg without gear is a lot of T3 though....I think if they had a study with a little more hGH and maybe 12.5mcg or 25mcg or maybe even 50mcg of T3 per day the results would be much more favorable.
____________________________
I will die before I lose.
Posts: 98 | From: Charlotte, NC USA | Registered: 08-16-2002
the truth
In ferro veritas
posted 10-29-2003 06:56 PM
Even taking the lean tissue loss into account, the difference in fat loss would be much greater in the T-3 only group according to those figures.
I don't think that weight loss of a pound a day is unheard of.
It's interesting that there was no group using T-3 and a very androgenic AAS.
__________________
Trevdog@ziplip.com
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
11-03-2003 08:17 AM
Nandi12
Title: Administrator
Member:#2
Registered: Aug 2002
Location:
Status: Offline
Points: 11,461
Posts: 3191 [5.79 per day]
Send Nandi12 a PM
Go to Top of Page
Go to Bottom of Page
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One thing Nandi fails to mention. Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) lowers T3
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is essentially another bodybuilding myth. Please ask the person who made the statement about tren lowering BIOAVAILABLE T3 to produce the research. I have read the studies, of which there are a grand total of two on tren in animals, and only total T4 was examined. This is not the same as free T4. Anabolic steroids lower thyroid binding globulin, which lowers total thyroid hormone levels. However, the body compensates by increasing thyroid hormone production, keeping free T3/T4, ie the bioavailable fraction, normal.
I have done a meta-analysis of all published studies on the effects of androgens/AAS on thyroid function. It will be out not this month in Mind & Muscle but in the subsequent issue. Here is a passage from the study:
"Can we make any sense out of the seeming hodgepodge of conflicting data? The only parameters that are consistent from study to study, where they were measured, are depressed total T3 and T4, and TBG. As we have discussed, androgens typically lower TBG, along with total T4 and T3 since the latter are a function of TBG levels...In conclusion then Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) seem to have little if any effect on thyroid function per se.
"The reports by Deyssig & Weissel, and Daly et al suggest the possibility of a direct action of Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) on the thyroid or pituitary, but their results are inconsistent: The former researchers detected elevated stimulated TSH while the latter saw an increase in basal TSH. Free T4 was unchanged in former group, while it was elevated in the latter. The only consistently reported effect is a depression in total T4, total T3 and TBG. If there is a direct effect of Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) on the thyroid, pituitary, or hypothalamus the studies conducted so far shed little light on the mechanism due to their inconsistent results. And as stressed by Deyssig & Weissel any direct effect of anabolic steroids on the thyroid would likely be of no clinical significance due to its small magnitude."
In the total medline database there are eight studies where the effects of androgens/AAS on free thyroid levels were examined. Only one of those studies showed a small clinically insignificant drop in free thyroid hormones. Two actually showed an increase in free thyroid hormones, again clinically insignificant. The remainder showed no effect.
I think adding T3 to a steroid cutting cycle is an excellent idea. I have stressed that point many times, and I always do it. What I think is a bad idea, unless all one is concerned about is weight loss and not preservation of lean body mass is to combine T3 with GH. Unlike with steroids, GH does just not have the anabolic power to offset the catabolic effects of T3.
__________________
nandi12@cyber-rights.net
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
11-03-2003 09:00 AM
big_byrd52
Title: Junior Member
Member:#1787
Registered: Mar 2003
Location:
Status: Offline
Points: 56
Posts: 18 [0.05 per day]
Send big_byrd52 a PM
Go to Top of Page
Go to Bottom of Page OK, so we know not to use t3 with GH only, but should it be used when taking Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) and GH?
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
12-20-2003 02:36 PM
Big Cat
Title: Super Moderator
Member:#666
Registered: Sep 2002
Location: Belgium
Status: Offline
Points: 2,314
Posts: 668 [1.30 per day]
Contributor
Send Big Cat a PM
Go to Top of Page
Go to Bottom of Page
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Nandi12
This is essentially another bodybuilding myth. Please ask the person who made the statement about tren lowering BIOAVAILABLE T3 to produce the research.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Look at who made the statement ...
__________________
Good things come to those who weight.
The Big Cat is a researcher and theoretiscist. His advice must never be taken in the stead of proper advice from a medical professional, it is entirely intended for research purposes.
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
12-21-2003 10:08 AM
JohnnyB
Title: Senior Member
Member:#939
Registered: Oct 2002
Location:
Status: Offline
Points: 1,074
Posts: 413 [0.89 per day]
Send JohnnyB a PM
Go to Top of Page
Go to Bottom of Page
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by big_byrd52
OK, so we know not to use t3 with GH only, but should it be used when taking Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) and GH?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You answered your own question Bro
JohnnyB
__________________
SteroidSupport
Steroidology Drug Profiles
Anabolic-Planet
AnabolicReview
JohnnyB1@Cyber-Right.Net
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
12-21-2003 10:56 AM
big_byrd52
Title: Junior Member
Member:#1787
Registered: Mar 2003
Location:
Status: Offline
Points: 56
Posts: 18 [0.05 per day]
Send big_byrd52 a PM
Go to Top of Page
Go to Bottom of Page Hey JB, so thats a yes with Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) and Gh? thats what i thought but want to be sure.
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
12-21-2003 02:34 PM
JohnnyB
Title: Senior Member
Member:#939
Registered: Oct 2002
Location:
Status: Offline
Points: 1,074
Posts: 413 [0.89 per day]
Send JohnnyB a PM
Go to Top of Page
Go to Bottom of Page Yes it is Bro, t3 and hgh not a good idea, adding Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) wouldn't make a difference. But it doesn't hurt to ask that's for sure
JohnnyB
__________________
SteroidSupport
Steroidology Drug Profiles
Anabolic-Planet
AnabolicReview
JohnnyB1@Cyber-Right.Net
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
12-21-2003 03:18 PM
big_byrd52
Title: Junior Member
Member:#1787
Registered: Mar 2003
Location:
Status: Offline
Points: 56
Posts: 18 [0.05 per day]
Send big_byrd52 a PM
Go to Top of Page
Go to Bottom of Page JB, i am saying it IS a good idea, u are saying NO. the reason i am thinking that it is good is because the tests show that the N excretion is lowered with the anavar+t3. then Nandi made this statement:
I think adding T3 to a steroid cutting cycle is an excellent idea. I have stressed that point many times, and I always do it. What I think is a bad idea, unless all one is concerned about is weight loss and not preservation of lean body mass is to combine T3 with GH. Unlike with steroids, GH does just not have the anabolic power to offset the catabolic effects of T3.
Wont using the Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) along with the GH/t3 offset catabolism and allow for optimum fat loss?
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
12-22-2003 12:23 AM
JohnnyB
Title: Senior Member
Member:#939
Registered: Oct 2002
Location:
Status: Offline
Points: 1,074
Posts: 413 [0.89 per day]
Send JohnnyB a PM
Go to Top of Page
Go to Bottom of Page
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by big_byrd52
Nandi made this statement:
I think adding T3 to a steroid cutting cycle is an excellent idea. I have stressed that point many times, and I always do it. What I think is a bad idea, unless all one is concerned about is weight loss and not preservation of lean body mass is to combine T3 with GH. Unlike with steroids, GH does just not have the anabolic power to offset the catabolic effects of T3.
Wont using the Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) along with the GH/t3 offset catabolism and allow for optimum fat loss?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bro it the igf-1 binding protein that your trying to avoid with the t3/hgh combo. That's way you use hgh to get your igf-1 up, with t3 putting out a igf-1 binding protein it's counter productive. What Nandi's trying to say is instead of t3/hgh use AAS, because all you'll get is weight loss and no muscle preservation with t3/hgh just weight loss
JohnnyB
__________________
SteroidSupport
Steroidology Drug Profiles
Anabolic-Planet
AnabolicReview
JohnnyB1@Cyber-Right.Net
Last edited by JohnnyB on 12-22-2003 at 03:27 AM
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
12-22-2003 03:23 AM
big_byrd52
Title: Junior Member
Member:#1787
Registered: Mar 2003
Location:
Status: Offline
Points: 56
Posts: 18 [0.05 per day]
Send big_byrd52 a PM
Go to Top of Page
Go to Bottom of Page ok i get it now, thanks for clearing that up for me.
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
12-22-2003 01:35 PM
saint808
Title: Super Moderator
Member:#102
Registered: Aug 2002
Location:
Status: Offline
Points: 9,340
Posts: 2162 [3.98 per day]
Send saint808 a PM
Go to Top of Page
Go to Bottom of Page on paper yes... with real life experience... not so sure.
__________________
Disclaimer:
saint808 is presenting fictitious opinions and does in no way, shape or form encourage, use nor condone the use of any illegal substances or the use of legal substances in an illegal manner. The information discussed is strictly for entertainment purposes only and shall not take the place of qualified medical advice.
primary e-mail: thesaint808@cyber-rights.net
secondary e-mail: saint808@ziplip.com
To quote Oscar Wilde, "They say we destroy the things we love, but really the things we love destroy us."
It's strange, how laughter looks like crying, with no sound and rain drops taste like tears, without the pain.
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
12-22-2003 02:41 PM
JohnnyB
Title: Senior Member
Member:#939
Registered: Oct 2002
Location:
Status: Offline
Points: 1,074
Posts: 413 [0.89 per day]
Send JohnnyB a PM
Go to Top of Page
Go to Bottom of Page
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by saint808
on paper yes... with real life experience... not so sure.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On which one the t3/hgh or the addition of Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) to it?
JohnnyB
__________________
SteroidSupport
Steroidology Drug Profiles
Anabolic-Planet
AnabolicReview
JohnnyB1@Cyber-Right.Net
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
12-23-2003 05:56 AM
saint808
Title: Super Moderator
Member:#102
Registered: Aug 2002
Location:
Status: Offline
Points: 9,340
Posts: 2162 [3.98 per day]
Send saint808 a PM
Go to Top of Page
Go to Bottom of Page t3/hgh... i think with the right combination of Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) that it would yield good results.
__________________
Disclaimer:
saint808 is presenting fictitious opinions and does in no way, shape or form encourage, use nor condone the use of any illegal substances or the use of legal substances in an illegal manner. The information discussed is strictly for entertainment purposes only and shall not take the place of qualified medical advice.
primary e-mail: thesaint808@cyber-rights.net
secondary e-mail: saint808@ziplip.com
To quote Oscar Wilde, "They say we destroy the things we love, but really the things we love destroy us."
It's strange, how laughter looks like crying, with no sound and rain drops taste like tears, without the pain.
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
12-23-2003 06:28 AM
big_byrd52
Title: Junior Member
Member:#1787
Registered: Mar 2003
Location:
Status: Offline
Points: 56
Posts: 18 [0.05 per day]
Send big_byrd52 a PM
Go to Top of Page
Go to Bottom of Page to what extent does the t3 bind up BP3? is the difference very significant or just a little. i would think the diff is negligable, and by adding it to the mix would help keep or get u lean.
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
12-23-2003 11:54 AM
JohnnyB
Title: Senior Member
Member:#939
Registered: Oct 2002
Location:
Status: Offline
Points: 1,074
Posts: 413 [0.89 per day]
Send JohnnyB a PM
Go to Top of Page
Go to Bottom of Page I think the only problem with t3/hgh is the igf-1 binding protein. So if your looking to loss weight it'd work it just an expensive fat burner(hgh) from what I understand. If you using the combo for mass gains with the igf-1 binding protein you might not get much out of it.
But like you said that's on paper it may pan out different in the real world. I don't have the kind of money it takes to do an experiment though, so I have to go with what's on paper for now.
JohnnyB
Here is the link to one of the follow up threads I started on the topic, which includes quotes of some of the studies and thoughts Nandi posted on the subject.
http://www.cuttingedgemuscle.com/Forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7881&highlight=Growth+and+Nandi
Here is the thread copied and pasted:
CONTEST ENTRY - Should T3 be added to a cycle of GH and androgens?
Title of the post:
Maybe we shouldn't run T3 with GH
Nandi's apparent opinion on this runs counter to what most people advice. I wanted to get some more input on the subject and see if it could be fleshed out.
I posted this on 10-28-2003 at http://anabolicfitness.infopop.net/...73&m=2073043357
Thoughts on this?
Here is one of Nandi12's posts on the subject.
"There is another study I like a lot; it took me a minute to dig the xerox copy out of my files. They looked at combinations of T3, T3 plus GH, and T3 plus anavar on weight loss and nitrogen retention in several subjects. As an illustrative example, in their patient #4, for 12 days with a washout period between treatments, they gave either T3 (150 mcg/day); T3 plus GH (5 mg/day = 15 IU/day) or T3 plus anavar (10 mg/day)
The weight loss in gm/day was as follows:
T3: 513 gm/day; T3+GH: 107gm/day; T3+anavar: 100gm/day
The nitrogen excretion in gm/3days was:
T3: 37; T3+GH: 32; T3+anavar: 26; placebo: 32
So just like in the other study on combining T3 and GH, you can see that here the nitrogen excretion of the T3+GH was exactly the same as placebo. In other words, the T3 cancelled all anabolic benefit of the GH. Giving T3 and anavar @ 10mg/day gives almost the same weight loss as GH+T3, but preserves much more lean body mass.
It makes no sense to combime GH and T3. Combining T3 with a low dose of Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) is a much wiser strategy for losing weight and preserving muscle
J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1971 Aug;33(2):293-300
Effects of triiodothyronine, growth hormone and anabolic steroids on nitrogen excretion and oxygen consumption of obese patients.
Bray GA, Raben MS, Londono J, Gallagher TF Jr."
Here is another one of his posts from the same thread, at http://www.cuttingedgemuscle.com/Fo...ighlight=growth
There are a couple of things about the second study I find interesting. One is how much weight these obese patients were losing on the T3: over a pound a day.
The other thing is how the GH interfered with the weight loss. That is a feature of a number of other studies where large doses of GH were used; in this one 15 IU/day. Insulin resistance becomes an important factor hindering weight loss at those large GH doses. Normally the insulin like effect of IGF-1 helps by lowering the endogenous output of insulin to some degree. IGF-1 as the name implies has an insulin like effect on glucose metabolism, but without interfereing with lipolysis like insulin. So in the presence of elevated IGF-1, the body secretes less insulin, improving fat loss. The problem here I suspect is that by impairing bioavailability of IGF-1, as T3 has been shown to do, the T3 negated the fat burning effect of GH.
Water retention caused by GH is a big factor as well. This is an old study (1970) so when measuring weight loss during GH administration, they did not have access to the sophisticated equipment available today to accurately measure changes in muscle and fat mass. They probably just weighed the subjects and because of the GH induced water retention it looks like they were not losing as much fat as they possibly were.
Here is another one of Nandi12's posts on the subject.
T3 and GH use are incompatible. T3 elevates levels of IGF binding protein to the point that they render IGF-1 unbioavailable.
J Hepatol 1996 Mar;24(3):313-9
Effects of long-term growth hormone (GH) and triiodothyronine (T3) administration on functional hepatic nitrogen clearance in normal man.
Wolthers T, Grofte T, Moller N, Vilstrup H, Jorgensen JO.
Department of Medicine M (Endocrinology and Diabetes), Aarhus University Hospital, Denmark.
BACKGROUND/AIMS: A decline in urea excretion is seen following long-term growth hormone administration, reflecting overall protein anabolism. Conversely, hyperthyroidism is characterized by increased urea synthesis and negative nitrogen metabolism. These seemingly opposite effects are presumed to reflect different actions on peripheral protein metabolism. The extent to which these hormonal systems have different direct effects on hepatic urea genesis has not been fully characterized. METHODS: We measured urea nitrogen synthesis rates and blood alanine levels concomitantly before, during, and after a 4-h constant intravenous infusion of alanine (2 mmol.kg bw-1.h-1). Urea nitrogen synthesis rate was estimated hourly as urinary excretion corrected for gut hydrolysis and accumulation in body water. The slope of the linear relationship between urea nitrogen synthesis rate and alanine concentration represents the liver function as to conversion of amino-N, and is denoted the functional hepatic nitrogen clearance. Eight normal male subjects (age 21-27 years; body mass index 22.4-27.0 kg/m2) were randomly studied four times: 1) after 10 days of subcutaneous saline injections, 2) after 10 days of subcutaneous growth hormone injections (0.1 IU/kg per day), 3) after 10 days of triiodothyronine administration (40 micrograms on even dates, 20 micrograms on uneven dates) and 4) after 10 days given 2)+3). All injections were given at 20 00 h. RESULTS: Growth hormone decreased functional hepatic nitrogen clearance (l/h) by 30% (from 33.8 +/- 3.2 l/h (control) to 23.8 +/- 1.5 l/h (10 days growth hormone) (mean +/- SE) (ANOVA; p < 0.01)). Triiodothyronine did not change functional hepatic nitrogen clearance [36.7 +/- 3.2 l/h), but triiodothyronine given together with growth hormone abolished the effect of growth hormone functional hepatic nitrogen clearance [38.8 +/- 4.8 l/h). CONCLUSIONS: The results show that long-term growth hormone administration acts on liver by decreasing functional hepatic nitrogen clearance, thereby retaining amino-N in the body. Triiodothyronine has no effect on functional hepatic nitrogen clearance, but given together with growth hormone, it abolishes the effect of growth hormone on functional hepatic nitrogen clearance. A possible mechanism is the known effect of thyroid hormones in reducing the bioavailability of insulin-like growth factor-I. Thus, the effects of growth hormone and triiodothyronine on amino-N homeostasis are interdependent and to some extent exerted via interplay in their regulation of liver function as to amino-N conversion.
T3 blocks IGF-1 in the liver. Read Nandi's article on t3 that will explain it better then I ever could.
http://www.steroidology.com/forum/s...highlight=nandi
Posts: 379 | Registered: 02-06-2001
Fonz
Nuclear Wizard
posted 10-28-2003 04:24 PM
One thing Nandi fails to mention.
AAS lower T3 levels(Specially Fina) thats how the exert most of their anti-catabolic effects.
Adding T3 at a low dosage will simply bring your T3 levels back up to normal. Nothing more.
We are not talking about supra-physiological dosing, just optimization.
Adding a low dosage of T3 while on AAS+GH is a good idea. Now, if its only GH+T3, thats a different story. I would not run T3 while only on GH. I would run 7-Keto DHEA instead of the T3. Maybe even an ECA stack to increase peripheral T4-T3 conversion.
GH also gives you a mild case of insulin resistance(As do some AAS), therefore adding R-ALA is definately a good idea as well.
Fonz
"Great minds talk about ideas, average minds talk about facts, and weak minds talk about people"
---- Fonz 6/2002
Posts: 1770 | From: Mojave Desert, Nevada | Registered: 02-17-2001
Ulter
Professional Moderator.
posted 10-28-2003 05:49 PM
I really don't know of anyone using GH and T3 alone, that I can think of. It's good to know there is a reason not to do it, and why though.
I would never suggest to anyone to use T3, GH or no GH, without AS.
Posts: 10492 | From: Orlando Florida | Registered: 11-09-2000
the truth
In ferro veritas
posted 10-28-2003 08:20 PM
Am I reading the summation of the results of the first study wtong, or did the total fat loss from T-3 alone blow away the combinations T-3/GH and T-3/var?
Posts: 289 | Registered: 02-13-2001
Fonz
Nuclear Wizard
posted 10-28-2003 08:33 PM
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by the truth:
Am I reading the summation of the results of the first study wtong, or did the total fat loss from T-3 alone blow away the combinations T-3/GH and T-3/var?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Not fat loss but WEIGHT loss.
You can bet a chunk of that is muscle tissue.
Placebo(Unitrogen) = 32
T3(Unitrogen) = 37
5/32 = 15.6% increase in nitrogen loss.
523gm/day = 1.16lbs/day(I do not believe this)
They must have been quite fat, or they didn't eat even a carrot.
So, 12 days at 150mcgs T3/day = 1.16(12) = 13.92lbs weight loss.
I have never seen anybody lose that much weight with T3 before(150mcgs/day is not really THAT much).
Fonz
"Great minds talk about ideas, average minds talk about facts, and weak minds talk about people"
---- Fonz 6/2002
Posts: 1770 | From: Mojave Desert, Nevada | Registered: 02-17-2001
RefuseToLose
AF Member
posted 10-28-2003 11:01 PM
150mcg without gear is a lot of T3 though....I think if they had a study with a little more hGH and maybe 12.5mcg or 25mcg or maybe even 50mcg of T3 per day the results would be much more favorable.
____________________________
I will die before I lose.
Posts: 98 | From: Charlotte, NC USA | Registered: 08-16-2002
the truth
In ferro veritas
posted 10-29-2003 06:56 PM
Even taking the lean tissue loss into account, the difference in fat loss would be much greater in the T-3 only group according to those figures.
I don't think that weight loss of a pound a day is unheard of.
It's interesting that there was no group using T-3 and a very androgenic AAS.
__________________
Trevdog@ziplip.com
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
11-03-2003 08:17 AM
Nandi12
Title: Administrator
Member:#2
Registered: Aug 2002
Location:
Status: Offline
Points: 11,461
Posts: 3191 [5.79 per day]
Send Nandi12 a PM
Go to Top of Page
Go to Bottom of Page
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One thing Nandi fails to mention. Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) lowers T3
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is essentially another bodybuilding myth. Please ask the person who made the statement about tren lowering BIOAVAILABLE T3 to produce the research. I have read the studies, of which there are a grand total of two on tren in animals, and only total T4 was examined. This is not the same as free T4. Anabolic steroids lower thyroid binding globulin, which lowers total thyroid hormone levels. However, the body compensates by increasing thyroid hormone production, keeping free T3/T4, ie the bioavailable fraction, normal.
I have done a meta-analysis of all published studies on the effects of androgens/AAS on thyroid function. It will be out not this month in Mind & Muscle but in the subsequent issue. Here is a passage from the study:
"Can we make any sense out of the seeming hodgepodge of conflicting data? The only parameters that are consistent from study to study, where they were measured, are depressed total T3 and T4, and TBG. As we have discussed, androgens typically lower TBG, along with total T4 and T3 since the latter are a function of TBG levels...In conclusion then Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) seem to have little if any effect on thyroid function per se.
"The reports by Deyssig & Weissel, and Daly et al suggest the possibility of a direct action of Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) on the thyroid or pituitary, but their results are inconsistent: The former researchers detected elevated stimulated TSH while the latter saw an increase in basal TSH. Free T4 was unchanged in former group, while it was elevated in the latter. The only consistently reported effect is a depression in total T4, total T3 and TBG. If there is a direct effect of Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) on the thyroid, pituitary, or hypothalamus the studies conducted so far shed little light on the mechanism due to their inconsistent results. And as stressed by Deyssig & Weissel any direct effect of anabolic steroids on the thyroid would likely be of no clinical significance due to its small magnitude."
In the total medline database there are eight studies where the effects of androgens/AAS on free thyroid levels were examined. Only one of those studies showed a small clinically insignificant drop in free thyroid hormones. Two actually showed an increase in free thyroid hormones, again clinically insignificant. The remainder showed no effect.
I think adding T3 to a steroid cutting cycle is an excellent idea. I have stressed that point many times, and I always do it. What I think is a bad idea, unless all one is concerned about is weight loss and not preservation of lean body mass is to combine T3 with GH. Unlike with steroids, GH does just not have the anabolic power to offset the catabolic effects of T3.
__________________
nandi12@cyber-rights.net
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
11-03-2003 09:00 AM
big_byrd52
Title: Junior Member
Member:#1787
Registered: Mar 2003
Location:
Status: Offline
Points: 56
Posts: 18 [0.05 per day]
Send big_byrd52 a PM
Go to Top of Page
Go to Bottom of Page OK, so we know not to use t3 with GH only, but should it be used when taking Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) and GH?
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
12-20-2003 02:36 PM
Big Cat
Title: Super Moderator
Member:#666
Registered: Sep 2002
Location: Belgium
Status: Offline
Points: 2,314
Posts: 668 [1.30 per day]
Contributor
Send Big Cat a PM
Go to Top of Page
Go to Bottom of Page
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Nandi12
This is essentially another bodybuilding myth. Please ask the person who made the statement about tren lowering BIOAVAILABLE T3 to produce the research.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Look at who made the statement ...
__________________
Good things come to those who weight.
The Big Cat is a researcher and theoretiscist. His advice must never be taken in the stead of proper advice from a medical professional, it is entirely intended for research purposes.
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
12-21-2003 10:08 AM
JohnnyB
Title: Senior Member
Member:#939
Registered: Oct 2002
Location:
Status: Offline
Points: 1,074
Posts: 413 [0.89 per day]
Send JohnnyB a PM
Go to Top of Page
Go to Bottom of Page
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by big_byrd52
OK, so we know not to use t3 with GH only, but should it be used when taking Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) and GH?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You answered your own question Bro
JohnnyB
__________________
SteroidSupport
Steroidology Drug Profiles
Anabolic-Planet
AnabolicReview
JohnnyB1@Cyber-Right.Net
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
12-21-2003 10:56 AM
big_byrd52
Title: Junior Member
Member:#1787
Registered: Mar 2003
Location:
Status: Offline
Points: 56
Posts: 18 [0.05 per day]
Send big_byrd52 a PM
Go to Top of Page
Go to Bottom of Page Hey JB, so thats a yes with Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) and Gh? thats what i thought but want to be sure.
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
12-21-2003 02:34 PM
JohnnyB
Title: Senior Member
Member:#939
Registered: Oct 2002
Location:
Status: Offline
Points: 1,074
Posts: 413 [0.89 per day]
Send JohnnyB a PM
Go to Top of Page
Go to Bottom of Page Yes it is Bro, t3 and hgh not a good idea, adding Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) wouldn't make a difference. But it doesn't hurt to ask that's for sure
JohnnyB
__________________
SteroidSupport
Steroidology Drug Profiles
Anabolic-Planet
AnabolicReview
JohnnyB1@Cyber-Right.Net
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
12-21-2003 03:18 PM
big_byrd52
Title: Junior Member
Member:#1787
Registered: Mar 2003
Location:
Status: Offline
Points: 56
Posts: 18 [0.05 per day]
Send big_byrd52 a PM
Go to Top of Page
Go to Bottom of Page JB, i am saying it IS a good idea, u are saying NO. the reason i am thinking that it is good is because the tests show that the N excretion is lowered with the anavar+t3. then Nandi made this statement:
I think adding T3 to a steroid cutting cycle is an excellent idea. I have stressed that point many times, and I always do it. What I think is a bad idea, unless all one is concerned about is weight loss and not preservation of lean body mass is to combine T3 with GH. Unlike with steroids, GH does just not have the anabolic power to offset the catabolic effects of T3.
Wont using the Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) along with the GH/t3 offset catabolism and allow for optimum fat loss?
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
12-22-2003 12:23 AM
JohnnyB
Title: Senior Member
Member:#939
Registered: Oct 2002
Location:
Status: Offline
Points: 1,074
Posts: 413 [0.89 per day]
Send JohnnyB a PM
Go to Top of Page
Go to Bottom of Page
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by big_byrd52
Nandi made this statement:
I think adding T3 to a steroid cutting cycle is an excellent idea. I have stressed that point many times, and I always do it. What I think is a bad idea, unless all one is concerned about is weight loss and not preservation of lean body mass is to combine T3 with GH. Unlike with steroids, GH does just not have the anabolic power to offset the catabolic effects of T3.
Wont using the Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) along with the GH/t3 offset catabolism and allow for optimum fat loss?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bro it the igf-1 binding protein that your trying to avoid with the t3/hgh combo. That's way you use hgh to get your igf-1 up, with t3 putting out a igf-1 binding protein it's counter productive. What Nandi's trying to say is instead of t3/hgh use AAS, because all you'll get is weight loss and no muscle preservation with t3/hgh just weight loss
JohnnyB
__________________
SteroidSupport
Steroidology Drug Profiles
Anabolic-Planet
AnabolicReview
JohnnyB1@Cyber-Right.Net
Last edited by JohnnyB on 12-22-2003 at 03:27 AM
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
12-22-2003 03:23 AM
big_byrd52
Title: Junior Member
Member:#1787
Registered: Mar 2003
Location:
Status: Offline
Points: 56
Posts: 18 [0.05 per day]
Send big_byrd52 a PM
Go to Top of Page
Go to Bottom of Page ok i get it now, thanks for clearing that up for me.
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
12-22-2003 01:35 PM
saint808
Title: Super Moderator
Member:#102
Registered: Aug 2002
Location:
Status: Offline
Points: 9,340
Posts: 2162 [3.98 per day]
Send saint808 a PM
Go to Top of Page
Go to Bottom of Page on paper yes... with real life experience... not so sure.
__________________
Disclaimer:
saint808 is presenting fictitious opinions and does in no way, shape or form encourage, use nor condone the use of any illegal substances or the use of legal substances in an illegal manner. The information discussed is strictly for entertainment purposes only and shall not take the place of qualified medical advice.
primary e-mail: thesaint808@cyber-rights.net
secondary e-mail: saint808@ziplip.com
To quote Oscar Wilde, "They say we destroy the things we love, but really the things we love destroy us."
It's strange, how laughter looks like crying, with no sound and rain drops taste like tears, without the pain.
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
12-22-2003 02:41 PM
JohnnyB
Title: Senior Member
Member:#939
Registered: Oct 2002
Location:
Status: Offline
Points: 1,074
Posts: 413 [0.89 per day]
Send JohnnyB a PM
Go to Top of Page
Go to Bottom of Page
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by saint808
on paper yes... with real life experience... not so sure.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On which one the t3/hgh or the addition of Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) to it?
JohnnyB
__________________
SteroidSupport
Steroidology Drug Profiles
Anabolic-Planet
AnabolicReview
JohnnyB1@Cyber-Right.Net
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
12-23-2003 05:56 AM
saint808
Title: Super Moderator
Member:#102
Registered: Aug 2002
Location:
Status: Offline
Points: 9,340
Posts: 2162 [3.98 per day]
Send saint808 a PM
Go to Top of Page
Go to Bottom of Page t3/hgh... i think with the right combination of Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) that it would yield good results.
__________________
Disclaimer:
saint808 is presenting fictitious opinions and does in no way, shape or form encourage, use nor condone the use of any illegal substances or the use of legal substances in an illegal manner. The information discussed is strictly for entertainment purposes only and shall not take the place of qualified medical advice.
primary e-mail: thesaint808@cyber-rights.net
secondary e-mail: saint808@ziplip.com
To quote Oscar Wilde, "They say we destroy the things we love, but really the things we love destroy us."
It's strange, how laughter looks like crying, with no sound and rain drops taste like tears, without the pain.
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
12-23-2003 06:28 AM
big_byrd52
Title: Junior Member
Member:#1787
Registered: Mar 2003
Location:
Status: Offline
Points: 56
Posts: 18 [0.05 per day]
Send big_byrd52 a PM
Go to Top of Page
Go to Bottom of Page to what extent does the t3 bind up BP3? is the difference very significant or just a little. i would think the diff is negligable, and by adding it to the mix would help keep or get u lean.
Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged
12-23-2003 11:54 AM
JohnnyB
Title: Senior Member
Member:#939
Registered: Oct 2002
Location:
Status: Offline
Points: 1,074
Posts: 413 [0.89 per day]
Send JohnnyB a PM
Go to Top of Page
Go to Bottom of Page I think the only problem with t3/hgh is the igf-1 binding protein. So if your looking to loss weight it'd work it just an expensive fat burner(hgh) from what I understand. If you using the combo for mass gains with the igf-1 binding protein you might not get much out of it.
But like you said that's on paper it may pan out different in the real world. I don't have the kind of money it takes to do an experiment though, so I have to go with what's on paper for now.
JohnnyB
Drveejay11
I am banned!
TREV: thanks, I missed this!!!!
Yes to T3/HGH for fat burning. If your natural testos levels are low, then adding low-dose Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) will aid to prevent muscle loss. Most obese people have low, natural testos and hgh anyway. Most athletes have normal or high Testos levels, so they could go either way.
I concluded from all that ; yes to T3/GH with NO exogenous Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) = more fat loss as well as muscle =ing just more total combined weight loss.
DRJMW, you are saying average or above average endogenous testotosterone would offset catabolism of muscle tissue with the t3/gh because it doesn't take very much exogenous anabolic horomone administration. i.e 200mg testo/wk = that of an above average male =/being efficient?
Regardless of your answer blearing that up; isn't igf-1 from gh administration still negated?
DRJMW, you are saying average or above average endogenous testotosterone would offset catabolism of muscle tissue with the t3/gh because it doesn't take very much exogenous anabolic horomone administration. i.e 200mg testo/wk = that of an above average male =/being efficient?
Regardless of your answer blearing that up; isn't igf-1 from gh administration still negated?
Similar threads
- Sticky
