valid points in my book. but if you can see it from "our" perspective, it isn't always about what YOU say, as what the hype around the products you stand behind say.
the general perception i that pro hormones and "natural steroids" and such are MASSIVELY overhyped. thus, anyone who recommends their use is looked at as part of that hype, regardless of whether you yourself make any claims that sound reasonable or not.
Fair enough, surely the category isn't always what it is cracked up to be. Like I said though, I do truly consider these products different, which is why I welcome those who are skeptical to at least follow the progress of those who do run it.
i look at your original statement, and my first thought was, sounds great... but i'm sure that it is super expensive, and i wonder what the actual science is behind the "thermogenic effects" and the claim of the equivalent of 100mg/week of test.
Thermogenic Effect: "ramps up sn-glycerol 3-phosphate dehydrogenase (GPDH) and cytosolic malic enzyme to increase thermogenesis. (9)" (from write up).
The equivalence is expressed in the write up as well, and significantly more lengthy. I would give it a quick read if you are genuinely interested.
personally didn't have enough interest on the topic to go research the actual primordial performance site and see what it says there. but so much of that stuff (generalization) reads like those muscle mag ads for the latest n.o. product. some muscle ridden (powered by steroids) genetic freak talking about how THAT is what gets him the edge.
Any supplement company is going to have marketing. Would you not drink a pepsi because all of the commercials try to portray it as something that will make you happy and fill you with refreshment? Face it, if anybody wants to sell something, it will involve marketing. The difference is our claims are able to be backed up, and are not subjective.
i find them very hard to read because i'm constantly rolling my eyes and losing my place on the page. by about the third time i've lost the motivation to find it again and i flip to the next page. and read it all again.
just sayin...
Then just go to the references page, take a look at the list of studies, and read those. No marketing in a study.
Unless the logs are by someone with a lot of cycle experience I personally won't be affected one way or another.
The offer was made, and has been confirmed, we wouldn't mind a vet giving them a run.
I have no doubt that you guys have good stuff for what it is but unless it costs the same and does the same as real gear I could care less... And if these logs come from guys who have never done a real cycle it means nothing to anyone who has...Get what I'm saying
You are looking at it wrong. Comparing everything to AAS implies that nothing else is worthwhile, even though there are tried and true natural sports supplements that have been accepted to be of benefit (think Creatine). Now surely your follow up argument will be "well you are comparing this one to injectable testosterone, which is why the price comparison is valid." We are also offering a legal, over the counter, pin free supplement. Listen, AAS is great. Not only great, its amazing for our sport/community. However there are many that are unwilling to take the risks of legality (some hold careers that could be finished with one conviction), or risk the quality of injecting an oil that came in a package from overseas into their muscles through self administration. To some, these benefits are worth the cost.
And why can't you freaking guys post in the ph forum?
Again, this has been addressed. We are looking a bio-equivalence of testosterone here which opens the interest in this product to a larger crowd than can be found in just the PH forum. We have numerous Hormone Replacement Therapy (HRT) guys who have shown interest in running products such as AndroHard as a supplement to their normal Hormone Replacement Therapy (HRT) routine. Why can't the same be applied to AndroLean?
Now lets just talk about bieber...
Can we attempt to keep this mature?
I especially enjoy the "side effects" section. It's that kind of thing that pisses people off. Just list the fucking side effects. Don't turn it into a product pimping section.
I just took a look at the Side effects section? None of it sounds like a benefit to me, so I am unsure what you are referring to here? Feel free to bring my attention to what you are talking about, and I will address it.
To the PP reps - maybe you can help me out. I may be blind, but I don't see any references about the long term study you did on your compounds. It'd be nice to see since it's "safe for long term use." I'd greatly appreciate a link.
Are any of the base hormones in these products anything that hasn't been on the market already?
This is my problem too. I don't care if a 40yr dude with a beer gut who's been working out for 8 months uses your product and claims it's awesome. How is that impressive? I'd love to see a dude who's been using real AAS for a few years weigh in on it. Badass dude with a rugged beard (*cough RJ cough*) who could part the sea like Moses with his lat spread.
This has been addressed.
Also, the "consultation" makes your company look ridiculous. If the product is so safe and effective, why would there ever be a need for this?
Glub what is your experience with steroids? How did you learn about them? Did you have a "buddy" introduce you? Did you read up online? What if to some people they are interested but don't have any person to guide them, nor the time to spend hours upon hours scouring the internet and trying to distinguish the broscience from the legit information. To some people having the information provided to them is worth the cost of a consultation.
hahaha I totally forgot about the consult' hahaha
FYI JB Pharm will not offer consults
See above response.
seriously we're stepping into the forefront of steroid technology with this one. i mean, seriously, how many steroid labs can YOU name that have an ssc at their disposal.
blood doping? we are into PLASMA doping. you think you got some advanced shizznizzle.... think again.
constantly thinking of ways to make YOU huge. that's what we're about. plain and simple. the most crucial product in our line, however, is the brainwasher. it actually brainwashes you to understand proper dieting and training techniques. no more "my shit is in check" cause now we check your shit and straighten it out FOR YOU if it is bent out of shape.
Again, lets sport some maturity, it does alot for character.
Jus-Tren will in fact make you hunger for only the right portions at the right times.
Side effects include eating humans and trees
...
we will, however, offer an online questionnaire that helps us determine just what your desired level of awesomeness is so we can help tailor the proper dosage plan for your needs.
this isn't about safe and effective for us.... STRICTLY about how much bieber you want inside you.
hahahahahahaa
actually, bieber himself can only offer 2.5 inches
yeah but it's like the difference between prop and enanthate.
prop is more major intrusion. gets more in you at once, but harder to maintain optimum comfort levels.
bieber acts like a long ester. smaller dosage, but with frequent dosing can provide more stable penetration levels and an overall elevated general comfort level.
Again, all I can ask for is a civil discussion. If we are expected to respond to questions/concerns, we can really do without this sort of side banter.
Sounds like the boys covered all my concerns and a couple extra. Let's get some guys who have experience with AAS, and BB, and who realizes PH's are gay. I'm sure Glub can post a pic of the type of gay I'm speaking of. And have those people run a log. We need someone who is know around here and will give a honest(gay) review, so we have a real comparison because EZ and Ted's statements of JB sound about the same as what all the supplement companies state about their products. Look at things like creatine, it works pretty well and I'll use it occassionaly but I can easily go without it and not think twice about it, and I think of that as one of the best supplements around because it will help increase strength, but when it comes time to put in work and get jacked, I don't say I better get some creatine and I might sound a little gay if I said I better get my andro hard (JK JK). Point is, I'd like to see some people who are credible log the products. All of them.
Are we 12? I haven't seen someone struggle so hard to go a couple sentences without using the word "gay" since I was in first grade.
The log was offered to a vet.
As a word of advice, it is often said that those who continually refer to things as gay and show homophobic tendencies are often hiding inner emotions. I don't mean to judge, but might be something to consider.
Hahahahahahaha you know it
I sat here trying to top this for 5 mins... It can't be beat
OK, so although i am cycling, why not give me some of the shit and I'll log it for the boys. if its supposed to help cut, shouldn't matter if i get an extra 100mg of test equivalent right?
Send a PM to Ryansm if he hasn't already sent you one.
^^^^ That's what I'm talking about. This is definately the one log I would trust.
Ok PP guys you now have a Vet willing to run and log the product, so no more only if he does it this way bullshit.
Put your money and all this fucking big talk and claims you have been making to a real life trial by fire and let RJ test it.
I am willing to bet it will never happen.
I gave the qualifications for the log. If we receive pre bloodwork, we will be able to get something going. I am not sure if it will be accepted with him currently on cycle, but we will get that straightened out. Funny how you guys will claim that it is unfair to judge a hormonal product on someone who is ill prepared (I agree), but it would be a fair assessment if they are currently cycling.
OK, i just read the write up on your site for this stuff. i have a few questions.
the supposed 91mg/test enan equivalent anything that would effect the HPTA? If not, what are these claims based off of. i don't see how you can equate something to what you woudl get from injecting exogenous test, without effecting the HPTA.
No one doubted a disturbance of HPTA function. It is a hormonal product.
Also, you mentioned bloodwork needed. As my BW test levels will already be in the 3-4000 range as I am cycling, and since this is touted as a thermo, does it really matter if i get BW or not? i would mainly be logging this for its 'cutting' effects not its ability to give me a measley 91mg of test.
We can look into this for you, but honestly, as I stated above, this would in no way give a fair assessment of the product. Half of the benefit to the product is the low dosed test to work in a synergistic manner with the thermogenic properties.
i'm not a vet, but i'd be down to try it out once i come off my post cycle therapy (pct) and my bloodwork balances back out.
i'm curious about the HPTA effects as well, like RJ. my pre-cycle natty test was already beyond that, so if it does affect HPTA then i would essentially be LOWERING my test, assuming i can recover it fully or at least nearly back to what it was baseline.
Again, what benefit would bloodwork from someone currently coming off cycle be? There is a mutual benefit to logging opportunities.
lol brave man RJ. Be sure to snag that consultation too. Maybe record it so we can all giggle at it together?
Addressed the consultation reasoning earlier.
What would I like from PP reps? Either prove that your products are all oral testosterone (none of them are) or KEEP THE PIMPING IN THE PRO HORMONE SECTION WHERE IT BELONGS.
We are currently working on testing that will prove our bio-equivalence claims. THANKS FOR THE CAPS LOCK.
Oh and I'm still waiting for any evidence whatsoever that PP spent any time and energy to even attempt a long term study of their compounds. Specifically AndroMass which is claimed as a RIDICULOUSLY expensive Hormone Replacement Therapy (HRT) product.
Addressed this earlier. Andromass is not marketed as an Hormone Replacement Therapy (HRT) product, it specifically states that the official recommendation from Primordial is to take the product for no longer than 6 weeks.
I'm also interested in seeing the actual raw research data in assessing the testosterone equivalency.....especially since the effects of DHEA are questionable in other literature and so is androstenedione. I'm sure your company has it readily available in an excel or .sas file since they undoubtedly used SAS to run the statistical analysis.
Eric provided this above.
What can I say? I'm a statistician. I love playing with numbers for fun. It'll give me a little side project to test out my new lenovo T/W420 once they come out later this month.
Glad we are keeping you entertained.
well, on average, using myself as an average testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) client, 100mg of exo test per week keeps me in the 6-750 range.
I'm just not getting the ability to correlate the claims being made without a direct effect on the HPTA.
Stated above, there would be an effect on HPTA.
yeah. i was up over 1k natty pre-cycle. so i wouldn't want to take something that shut down hpta and only left with me less than i started with anyway. of course we'll see if i can recover back to baseline
Any hormonal product will have an effect on HPTA.
i think between me you and Glub we have asked enough for now.
i don't mind trying this now as i think it would be strictly as an aide in BF loss. But an $80 bottle of thermogenics better get me to 8% with a decent diet. Shit i can buy 2000 Clen tabs for that.
Forget about the test equivalence (which i still say is bullshit), for that money, i better have a six pack by day 4.
The general argument against PHs is they are sold as magic pills, and your last claim here specifically asks for a extraordinary result. As for the clen question, again, you are looking at questionable legal status, a host of potential heart issues (I am not hating, I have clen as well, just being a realist). There are benefits to not using clen for fat loss.
Sweet. So you're saying there's gonna be a lot of topless pics involved?
Be sure to get creative.
Damn looks like the PP guys don't have a response to your questions.
Taking bets on what their response will be.
My guess more meaningless bullshit.
Sorry, we do have other forums to attend to, sleep to be had, gyms to lift weights in, family to care for, jobs to work, etc..
