Ask Anything You Want about TRT Thread........

[Nomoobs]

Been taking 200 mg a week split in 2 doses test cyp for 4 months. Dr added Oxandralone 4 weeks ago 20mg per day for 8 weeks total. Been taking .25 anastrozole 3 times per week. Guessing it wasnt enough as my left pec is getting slightly sore and nipple. Hopefully I caught it in time. Before adding anastrazole when I was just on test cyp 200mg a week for 5 weeks my test was at 1100 2 days after injection and Estrodial was at 70 so I started anastrazole at .25 twice a week. I am assuming this was not enough.

Dr told me to raise anastrozole to .50 3 times a week after I called him yesterday and told him my symptoms. Thoughts??? Scared about getting Gyno. Wondering if since im still dialing in my E has been high for a while and Im holding water. I feel bloated still. Dr said try upping the anastrazole and if it doesnt improve in a week he will go from there. Any thoughts or advice?

 

[BD7]

you could still do your 2x a week schedule. but i honestly think some guys do better on just once per week.

Once a week or E5d for "most guys".. I understand everyone is different.

I guess if I stayed on the 2x per week I would take my HCG and T at the same time, for convenience. I don't buy too much into timing because levels will build then stabilize. Even your adex will build up.

In your opinion would 60mg T (210mg/ml) and 500IU HCG on the same day give that T "spike" we are sometimes looking for which causes some guys to do better on the E5d or E7d schedule?

you could try taking your adex the days after your T and HCG shot, in the end though it all comes down to playing with it and finding the best schedule for you. Ive seen some guys take there Aromatase inhibitor (AI) the day before, day of and even 3 days after. The problem with generalizing a schedule is although these half-lives can be used as a guide, they are still based on averages. The same kind of averages that they use on lab tests to tell you where you should be.......... so in the end, these numbers are only to guide you.

How long do you go with one particular dose change before making another dose adjustment? I guess another way of asking is how long in your opinion does it take to "stabilize" before you know it's not working.. I'm talking about Adex here.

when i do 150mg a week and 1k IU HCG, 2x HCG and 1 T shot. I fall into 7-800 range and E around 40. Thats where I feel good but that does not mean you can replicate those numbers with that schedule, it could be completely different.

No AI? I came in at 728 T on 126mg Test C and 1k HCG with E2 at 52 with no Aromatase inhibitor (AI). I always tested low E2 (last time 16) but when you have low T (400 before TRT), low E2 is sometimes the norm. How much Adex do you recommend I go with with 728T and 52 E2 on 126mg/week Test C and now 250IU HCG EOD? I'm thinking I'll go back to 500 IU HCG E3.5d with the T pin now that I"ve read your thought and depending on how you answer the "spike" question.

The way your spittin' this stuff out I can see you've been around the block a few times! Thanks for your time and knowledge.

 

[BD7]

Any idea if HGH would heal any type of tendon\ligament issue in the shoulder??

let say if you had a bad rotator cuff or labrium, would taking HGH actually heal it instead of going through surgery???

I know you were asking Det Oak but let me just add my .02. You question is way to general for anyone to know if HGH would help or not. I have a lot of experience treating shoulder injuries and post surgical shoulders. A "bad rotator cuff" could be anything from tendonitis to a major tear and so on.. A labrum injury could mean a few different types of labrum tears and so on. I'd say if you had some disposable income or insurance get a proper diagnosis by someone who treats alot of shoulders which could include a MRI or CT-Arthrogram first.. It would cost less than your first HGH kit and you'd know for sure what your up against.

The only hardcore proof I've seen that shows it works is when they do high dose spot injections with GH, it cuts healing time.

I've seen this also but have limited experience with it. I've seen HGH cut down on post surgical healing time and on healing of muscle strains/tears etc. Labrum, meniscus however I've not seen it heal.. not saying it wouldn't help but torn cartilage is torn cartilage.

 

[THE-DET-OAK]

Feel free to put your input fellas, It is great to have multiple opinions. I will be back later BD to answer what I can.

 

[RedLang]

Hey Det. First off, iv learnt a lot of information off your posts and your contribution to this forum, thank you.

Have you had experience with T injectables causing symptoms and /or lowering Progenitor hormones such as any in the mineralocorticoid (aldosterone, progesterone) and glucocorticoid (cortisol, pregnonelone) or DHEA?

 

[THE-DET-OAK]

Been taking 200 mg a week split in 2 doses test cyp for 4 months. Dr added Oxandralone 4 weeks ago 20mg per day for 8 weeks total. Been taking .25 anastrozole 3 times per week. Guessing it wasnt enough as my left pec is getting slightly sore and nipple. Hopefully I caught it in time. Before adding anastrazole when I was just on test cyp 200mg a week for 5 weeks my test was at 1100 2 days after injection and Estrodial was at 70 so I started anastrazole at .25 twice a week. I am assuming this was not enough.

Dr told me to raise anastrozole to .50 3 times a week after I called him yesterday and told him my symptoms. Thoughts??? Scared about getting Gyno. Wondering if since im still dialing in my E has been high for a while and Im holding water. I feel bloated still. Dr said try upping the anastrazole and if it doesnt improve in a week he will go from there. Any thoughts or advice?

I agree with your Dr.

I think that is the proper course of action and if that doesn't resolve it then it is time to reduce T injection or see if maybe a small dose of Nolva will help combat it. I personally don't like Nolva as it lowers IGF-1

Make sure your liver is working well because it is responsible for clearing those hormones once they become toxins.

Hope this helps and come back after about 10 days and let us know if things have improved.

 

[THE-DET-OAK]

Once a week or E5d for "most guys".. I understand everyone is different.


In your opinion would 60mg T (210mg/ml) and 500IU HCG on the same day give that T "spike" we are sometimes looking for which causes some guys to do better on the E5d or E7d schedule?

Honestly I personally think injecting that amount at one time is of little use

How long do you go with one particular dose change before making another dose adjustment? I guess another way of asking is how long in your opinion does it take to "stabilize" before you know it's not working.. I'm talking about Adex here.

I would say 2 half lives are plenty enough to for a titration to stabilize

No AI? I came in at 728 T on 126mg Test C and 1k HCG with E2 at 52 with no Aromatase inhibitor (AI). I always tested low E2 (last time 16) but when you have low T (400 before TRT), low E2 is sometimes the norm. How much Adex do you recommend I go with with 728T and 52 E2 on 126mg/week Test C and now 250IU HCG EOD? I'm thinking I'll go back to 500 IU HCG E3.5d with the T pin now that I"ve read your thought and depending on how you answer the "spike" question.

yes no Aromatase inhibitor (AI), although are results on paper are similar, our physical results could have been different because of the different dosing schedule. I think anything less than 500IU of HCG at one time is a waste of time and money. have you tried your protocol without HCG yet?

The way your spittin' this stuff out I can see you've been around the block a few times! Thanks for your time and knowledge.

answers in bold

 

[THE-DET-OAK]

Hey Det. First off, iv learnt a lot of information off your posts and your contribution to this forum, thank you.

Have you had experience with T injectables causing symptoms and /or lowering Progenitor hormones such as any in the mineralocorticoid (aldosterone, progesterone) and glucocorticoid (cortisol, pregnonelone) or DHEA?

Well testosterone in itself should lower cortisol, it is very common for that to happen.

Now my explanation for the disruption on other hormones is that since you are suppressing the hypothalamus, via the negative feedback loop, these hormones also get suppressed at the factory. Some believe this is because of the stolen raw material when one gets out of whack per say.

One common theme I see on testosterone is that TSH will become suppressed over time. Chrisler says that using HCG can motivate these hormones to be made via the P450 side-chain enzyme.

This is only if there is enough raw material to make those hormones.

For those that have these problems sometimes a DHEA/Pregnenolone transdermal can help.

Chrisler says that using HCG will help balance out these metabolic pathways, but now we are getting into things that have very limited data on them.

So to answer, yes I see these other hormones out of whack often with men on testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) (for long periods) and supplementation is def needed.

 

[RedLang]

Thanks DET. Very thorough response as always.

 

[BD7]

In your opinion would 60mg T (210mg/ml) and 500IU HCG on the same day give that T "spike" we are sometimes looking for which causes some guys to do better on the E5d or E7d schedule?

Honestly I personally think injecting that amount at one time is of little use

I'm guessing your talking about the T right? injecting 60mg E3.5D is of little use? Even if my numbers came in @ 728 in the trough? So if your referring to 60mg T not being enough regardless of lab results.. (and I think I understand why you think that).. then would the same weekly amount of T E5D days be sufficient or @ 125-130mg/wk, Should just give 126mg T E7D a shot or the other option would be to increase T to say 150mg/week and still pin E3.5D, pin HCG 500iu at same time and adjust Aromatase inhibitor (AI) as needed dosing day after T/HCG pin?

No AI? I came in at 728 T on 126mg test C and 1k HCG with E2 at 52 with no Aromatase inhibitor (AI). I always tested low E2 (last time 16) but when you have low T (400 before TRT), low E2 is sometimes the norm. How much Adex do you recommend I go with with 728T and 52 E2 on 126mg/week test C and now 250IU HCG EOD? I'm thinking I'll go back to 500 IU HCG E3.5d with the T pin now that I"ve read your thought and depending on how you answer the "spike" question.

yes no Aromatase inhibitor (AI), although are results on paper are similar, our physical results could have been different because of the different dosing schedule. I think anything less than 500IU of HCG at one time is a waste of time and money. have you tried your protocol without HCG yet?
answers in bold

No I just started my protocol on June 1st of this year.. so I'm in week 7 or so.. I want to reserve the ability to have kids (maybe sooner than later) so I figured I might as well keep the boys as functional as possible. Shrinkage doesn't appear to me either.

 

[Nomoobs]

So I started upping my anastrazole to .50 from .25 e3d because pain in left pec.Immediately my joints are popping and cracking. I'm so frustrated. Feels like the pain in my pec is slowly going away but now my freaking joints hurt. I'm just bummed because I was feeling really good. I skipped my workout today. Is there other AIs that don't do this?

 

[zgx]

Unless I'm mistaken the cracking and popping are side effects of low E which is what any Aromatase inhibitor (AI) is going produce. I've read that some users in this forum supplement with fish oil, perhaps worth a shot unless you're already taking it.

 

[Nomoobs]

Haha yea I take in alot of fish oil. I eat primarily Paleo too.

 

[THE-DET-OAK]

I'm guessing your talking about the T right? injecting 60mg E3.5D is of little use? Even if my numbers came in @ 728 in the trough? So if your referring to 60mg T not being enough regardless of lab results.. (and I think I understand why you think that).. then would the same weekly amount of T E5D days be sufficient or @ 125-130mg/wk, Should just give 126mg T E7D a shot or the other option would be to increase T to say 150mg/week and still pin E3.5D, pin HCG 500iu at same time and adjust Aromatase inhibitor (AI) as needed dosing day after T/HCG pin?

Here is the issue, your trough needs to come in higher cause you are comparing it to troughs that are based off of E7D injections. Most people will tell you they feel good when they come in @ 8-900, on a 7 day schedule mind you, so trying to compare a 3 day schedule to that is just not possible. your trough maybe 728 but your peak is not far from that, cause your levels are not rising and falling. I know people say you do not get use to your testosterone but I think it can happen. Studies on GH have shown us that consistent exposure to high levels of GH in the blood leave us less sensitive to it.

Our bodies do not keep very stable levels naturally, testosterone is secreted in a pulsitile fashion. Our T goes way up, and then falls almost down to zero. With GH this keeps us sensitive to it, why wouldn't testosterone be the same? So here were are trying to mimic our bodies natural secretion with an archaic IM injection and bottom-line it is just not possible, so we have to think outside the box and stop trying to mimic it. what we want is a curve that goes way up and falls way down, contrary to poplar belief. Now if we could do IV injections of testosterone we could get this curve to happen in one day, but since we are dealing with a medication that has a 7 day half life, we should do it on a 7 day curve.

No I just started my protocol on June 1st of this year.. so I'm in week 7 or so.. I want to reserve the ability to have kids (maybe sooner than later) so I figured I might as well keep the boys as functional as possible. Shrinkage doesn't appear to me either.

I wouldn't worry too much about not being able to have kids even when on testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) without testosterone. I know guys that abused AAS for 10 years and then did a nice blast of HCG while on testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) and got pre go immediately. Another point to note is HCG only works half way when testosterone levels are high, it will stimulate the testes but not the pituitary, it is not until testosterone falls to very low levels that HCG will prime the pituitary. So what I mean is its not that important to keep them going while on in regards to fertility, it is a nice option in theory but history shows that using HCG after discontinuing testosterone yields a much better result.

Hope this helps

 

[THE-DET-OAK]

So I started upping my anastrazole to .50 from .25 e3d because pain in left pec.Immediately my joints are popping and cracking. I'm so frustrated. Feels like the pain in my pec is slowly going away but now my freaking joints hurt. I'm just bummed because I was feeling really good. I skipped my workout today. Is there other AIs that don't do this?

Estrogen is responsible for joint health, so yes it is common for your joints to hurt while on TRT. With that being said it is also possible for adex to hurt your joints even with your E in range, its been so long I don't remember the exact science behind it.

It would be worth a try to give a different kind of Aromatase inhibitor (AI) a shot.

Also 9x out of 10 I see guys say they have gyno, don't actually have gyno, they simply feel a fat cluster that they were not looking for before because they were not injecting T

Hope this helps

 

[Gr8Wall]

Been on testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) for about 2 weeks now and have had some poblems. Ive had about 2 days that i actually felt better but the rest os feeling like garbage. Doc prescribed me 200mg test cyp per week but iver been keeping it arounbd 150mg per week one shot per week. I messed up my hormone levels years ago doing some stupid cycling and gave myself gyno in the process. I had gyno removed this past janruary and am of course paranoid of it coming back. Paranoid to the point that the second day on testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) i took 3.125 mg arimidex and my joints were killing me the next day so i backed off for a few days. I noticed some water retention and had blood pressure go up so i took a dosage of aromasin 3.125 mg and felt good the next day. I started to believe i was getting sore and itchy nips so i took another dosage of 3.125 mg the following day as well and then the next. My problem is i cant tell at this point if my estrogen is actually to high or two low but i have a tiny bit of water retention and my blood pressure is going up again and i feel like garbage.

I think i may have problems with AI's as i tried the letro protocol a couple years ago to try to reverse gyno and my blood pressure got dangerously high.

Im just starting to believe this testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) is more trouble than worth and maybe i should just live with 300 test levels as i cant take this blood pressure feeling in my head anymore. Im not due back at docs till august 9th for bloodwork. He did not prescribe the aromasin as he told me he would but wanted to wait the first month to see where levels were but iu got scared i would develop gyno and ordered liquid aromasin from RS.com which by all reviews is a good accurately dosed product. I went the aromasin route as ive read a great deal about how arimidex destroys lipid profiles and want to be healthy long term.

I just dont understand, can lowering my E2 too low with aromasin cause high blood pressure? Or is my dosage or aromasin so small that the high blood pressure due to very high E2? i did not take 3.125 mg aromasin yesterday as my joints have been killing me and all of a sudden my blood pressure is elevating (currently at 135/73) and i can feel that in my head.

I want to go on record and say Ai's may help prevent gyno but they suck. They may lower estrogen but it seems they cause a world of other problems. I feel like garbage at this point and am thinking it may be time to quit TRT.

Doc will probably prescribe me arimidex but i dont want to take it rest of my life and screw up my lipids all to hell but at same time this high blood pressure will ultimately get worse and kill me in end too. Its like a losing game all the way around. What the heck is going on and what the heck should i do? Can estrogen too low cause elevated blood pressure?

I will say before testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) i ran test booster cycles of Triazole and Erase and i got same feeling of achy joints as im guessing it sent my estrogen too low bu i never got the high blood pressure which confuses the hell out of me as i would have thought as potent as erase is that it would have elevated my blood pressure just like aromasin apparently has.

Im just lost and aggravated at this point. Any advice is appreciated. Thank you.

 

[THE-DET-OAK]

Please keep in mind I am not a doctor and you should consult your physician before changing or engaging in any therapeutic program.


Sorry about the frustration bro but don't give, living with 300 test levels is not a good idea, I would presume it is actually more dangerous than the blood pressure spike.

Your blood pressure should not go up if you keep levels in eugonadal ( natural ) range. So here are a few things you can try before giving up.

Don't be afraid of the creams. Although there is a small worry about estrogen conversion this will keep your levels from ever shooting up too high. Now this may not be as good of a feeling as injections, but it will be a heck of a lot better than 300ng/dl natty levels.

since you are on injectables already lets see if we can work out something though before we switch to creams. Now, most of the time when your blood pressure gets really high that is because of high estrogen, but not always. You should get your doctor to give you blood pressure meds to go with your testosterone replacement therapy (TRT), some guys are just super prone to it when injecting T, nothing those meds won't help you with though.

Also you may already know this but you have to keep bloat down and this could easily be caused by not taking in enough water or not exercising enough (cardio).

What I would do is drop my dose to 100mg a week for a bit, and see if that alleviates it, then once you stabilize blood pressure while on therapy see if you can slowly titrate up if need be.

For the AI's causing joint pain it is very possible for them to do that even though E is not suppressed, this can be very common with exemestane.

For the lipids I wouldn't buy into to that to much cause let me tell you where that info came from. AI's have been tested on women in hopes to reduce there cancer cells by eliminating estrogen. They had to give women 10mg ED of adex to achieve that, which is about a 10x the dose we would take in a week let alone every day. i do not see them affecting lipids at the small dose we take them at, after all leaving your testosterone at 300 is much worse for your lipids then adex even at 10mg ED.

So with your 100 mg of testosterone try taking about .5-1mg a week only of adex. splitting it up or taking it all on the day of your shot. I would stay away from Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) for now and keep your protocol as simple as possible and work it up very slowly.

If this does not work then your next move would be to try creams, they can be very useful to those that don't agree with injections.

I think it is possible to get you going, I would just get the blood pressure meds from my doc and at least have the ones on hand you can take at will, when blood pressure goes up.
:
Hope this helps and feel free to post more now that we have a discussion going on this

 

[Mr P]

nice thread interesting posts, I would love to start hrts soon, a month ago I had thick blood "hemoglobin was at 18.4 so I donated blood, a month later hemoglobin is in good range 17.3 I would like to start Hormone Replacement Therapy (HRT) now

 

[THE-DET-OAK]

nice thread interesting posts, I would love to start hrts soon, a month ago I had thick blood "hemoglobin was at 18.4 so I donated blood, a month later hemoglobin is in good range 17.3 I would like to start Hormone Replacement Therapy (HRT) now

Doing a double RBC with Red Cross instead of a whole blood donation will drop that even further Mr. P

On top of that I think they use those for the cancer patients, so win win, an easy way to give back to the community

Lets get you started, I would like to personally give you your free phone consultation

 

[THE-DET-OAK]

nice thread interesting posts, I would love to start hrts soon, a month ago I had thick blood "hemoglobin was at 18.4 so I donated blood, a month later hemoglobin is in good range 17.3 I would like to start Hormone Replacement Therapy (HRT) now

also while we are on the subject of Hemo lets not forget this

For example, testosterone can increase the hematocrit, the percentage of red blood cells in the bloodstream. If the hematocrit goes up too high, we worry about the blood becoming too viscous or thick, possibly predisposing someone to stroke or clotting events. Although, frankly, in a review that I wrote in the New England Journal of Medicine* where we reviewed as much of this as we could, we found no cases of stroke or severe clotting related to testosterone therapy. Nevertheless, the risk exists, so we want to be careful about giving testosterone to men who already have a high hematocrit, such as those with chronic obstructive pulmonary disease, or those who have a red-blood-cell disorder.

A Harvard expert shares his thoughts on testosterone-replacement therapy - Harvard Health Publications

and this for the gel topic

Men who start using the gels have to come back in to have their testosterone levels measured again to make sure theyre absorbing the right amount. Our target is the mid to upper range of normal, which usually means around 500 to 600 ng/dl. The concentration of testosterone in the blood actually goes up quite quickly, within a few doses. I usually measure it after two weeks, though symptoms may not change for a month or two.