Half Truth

[Zeek]

I've had sources that I have now been using for over 8 years and while they have provided me with quality and we have a good relationship I don't trust them or their own testing. The only testing that has any merit is that done by end users.

As for the IGF testing it can be extremely accurate if the same protocols are adhered to. What I mean by this is people eating similar foods 1 hour before the actiual test or everyone fasting. Myself and 3 friend tested on the same batch of a particular brand for IGF levels and we did the exact same protocol. Would ya believe that our results were all within 30 pts of each other? 4 different guys on the same GH batch.

There is a reason medical professionals do use the IGF test instead of the serum test to judge if the HGH they are giving you is effective and if dosages need to be adjusted.

In the interest of the community since the masses are indeed electing to use the other method I will go along with that for now

 

[ForeverYoung]

You are absolutely right Zeek, and medical professionals are monitoring things like diet, people's chemical make-up, etc. There are also plenty of things that are accepted in the medical field for reasons other than them being totally accurate. I've seen some pretty wide variation from some pretty simple changes.

We always use both numbers, not only one or the other. And we monitor the variables closely to decrease the variance, but it still exists.

Your relationship with your sources is your business. I always have and always will conduct my own testing and testing on those that come to me for help with it. But until I'm given a reason to, I will continue to assume until test day that they aren't suddenly letting me down.

And I do not trust many end users tests either. And I am especially wary of anything done by reps, because whether they feel like they do or not, a rep has an agenda. That agenda is to represent and further the exposure and potential business growth of a particular source. Even if it doesn't make them do anything shady, the agenda is there. And the idea that a source definitely doesn't send them anything different than anyone else is also not something I feel comfortable trusting just because a rep says so.

I tend to pretty much ignore any source that has "reps" all over boards as a general rule. I haven't found many like that who can actually compare to any of the better sources I've used over the years.

 

[Mike Arnold]

CrazyM and Mike both have very valid points.

A lot of people have reported excellent results from bunk, but eventually I think they start to realize something is not right.

MIKE A, what's up with the factories at this point? Without being to much out in the open, there can only be a certain number, and all off it has to be coming from these couple, I'm just wondering why they can't seem to remain consistent?

Most every "brand name product I've seen recently was mostly 100% bunk. The generics on the other hand have been testing well. I will give you credit for standing up for your guy and what you believe in, but that goes for CrazyM also.

There is just a lot of skepticism right now and rightfully so.

Oh yeah, man...things are real bad in the GH market right now...the worst.

I don't know why these manufacturers won't consistently produce GH. WE know it is within their capacity do so. They have the equipment, the educated/trained staff, and the facility. There is ZERO excuse for why they can't get their shit together. The fact is, the Chinese know they have they have us all by the balls...because China is pretty much all that is left when it comes to the GH market.

I sometimes feel like these fuckers are sitting back laughing when they put out a bad batch, almost like they flip a coin to decide whether or not the batch they're about to make will be either great (in order to keep people's hope alive)...or fake (in order to increase their profit)...or anywhere inbetween (in order to decieve the masses by giving them just enough results to fool them).

Well, even though this shit kills us, we will still tell you what we have when we have it. We are tired of the guessing and we already know people need to know what they're getting. This is why we test every batch. So, even if they try to fuck us, we will know about it...and so will you. It is iimportant to us that people know what they're getting. We don't want there to be any questions...we don't want people saying "Is this kit of GH I'm about to buy fake or real". If other companies are OK letting their customers wonder that (I am not saying they are) then they can do things that way, but we want everyone who considers buying from us to know exactly what they're getting when they buy a kit...whether it has a point reading in the 30's, the teens, or the 20's. If people know this information, they will trust us...because they will know that are only concern is not just about making money. It would've been EASY to fake these test results, put a reading of 34 on there, and post it up. You know, the large majority of the people who would've bought it would 've had no idea and would've happily used it, saying how good their results were...because aftr all, it does contain legit GH. But...we decided to do things this way for a reason...because when the smoke clears, we want people to trust us...not leave them wondering.

 

[Mike Arnold]

interesting..mike in the other thread u said the march batch wad bad
No...I said the December batch of GH was fake. Results have been posted on every batch the last 3 months, including this month. I never said this batch was fake...we just recieved the test results for thisd batch a couple days ago now.


.. does this go for test too ? when i said that my gear seemed underdosed? there is so many ppl out there complaining about the same thing, do you kno how many guys have pm me askin about pinnacle? cause they not feelin z test at all alot
No...we are not aware of any test batches being bad, BUT we have heard some guys complaining in just the last few weeks, so if it is, it almost assuredly came from a single batch. New stuff has come in since then, which we are having guys test specifically because of these complains.

We also said, and this is important, that ANYONE who gets lab works showing their test is not legit, we will gladly fix the problem for you. Also remember that for every 1 guy who recently complained about this last batch of Test, we have 7 guys saying they're getting great results. It is easily possible for a partial batch to be bad. However, whenever we hear a bunch of guys all saying the same thing....we listen. Again...this is why we said that anyone who gets bloodwork showing their levels are bad, they will be taken care of.
We want everyone to be happy.

Now, I am not saying the a portion of the batch was bad, but it is possibler. We strive to make sure EVERYONE is happy with EVERY order. This is why Uncle goes out of his way to make all things right. There is not a single UGL which lab tests every single items they get, let alone lab tests every single item multiple times, in order to ensure that every single part of the batch is good. Uncle does better than most and while problems can arise, it is rare we have had issues with our Test. Typically, Test is not an item to "worry" about, especially in comparison to something like GH. If you feel you have recieved a bad vial(s) of Test, please get a simple test and we will immediately correct any issues which are nmade apparent.



, and on another thread u argued that the hgh was legit
I am not sure what you're talking about. I have only ever said exactly what it was...I posted the lab results the first time I commented on it. I and the others we always straight forward regarding this batch of GH. We posted the lab results before makinga single comment on it, so I am a bit confused.

but it is still underdosed the truth is the shit isnt even that cheap and you should get what u pay for,one reason why i dont mess wit hgh yet,is because most shit out there is bunk or underdosed im just sittin waitin on something good to come.
Welcome to the world of GH. All of us want pharm-grade GH for Chinese grade prices on a consistent basis...good luck. It has never happened and will never happen, regardless of what you or I or anyone else thinks about it. Sure, you may see a batch here and there that is comparable to pharm-grade in potency, but be rest assured, it will not last long and as soon as a bunch of people start buying that brand, it will soon be under-dosed or fake. This is the pattern. Nothing lasts forever...it is only good long enough to suck people in. Getting pharm-grade GH at Chinese grade prices consistently is a dream which will never materialize. Should we expect to get pharm-grade potency at Chinese grade prices? We might have the right to expect it, but we should never "expect" it in reality, because as long as China is running the shop, that shit is joke.

Quit frankly, I can completely understand your frustratuion, BUT...we do NOT deserve to be attcked for telling you the truth. If you want to attack someone, go attack every single other brand of GH people bought on this site which was bunk. Go attack every seller that never provided legitimate test results BEFORE sale. Go attack every seller than never gave their customers a refund/exchange when their stuff was shown to be bunk. Go attack every seller who continued to sell their GH when they knew it was bunk. Go attack all them...NOT us. You might not be happy that the batch o GH we got isn't meeting your expectations, but it isn't hurting you when we've provided you with all the relevant information you need to make your own decisions. It seems to me that the more we try to do the right thing (not every decision a UGL makes has selfish interests..sometimes people DO just want to do the right thing)...the more shitty posts we see. I don't know...maybe we're doing this shit wrong...maybe we shouldn't post results at all, but rather just say how good our GH is and then let everyone buy it regardless of whether it is good or fake. Sometimes being straightforward seems to garner more critcism than praise.

Sorry our GH didn't test great this time...maybe it will next time just like our last batch did.

..

 

[Mike Arnold]

good point heavy, but z is representing the product it doesnt matter where its shipped from and if you got a problem or concern with the product u gotta deal w z not some random person from china.

But the point is that YOU don't have any problems with Z or the manufacturer. Why? Because you were provided with full disclosure before being given the chance to purchase and therefore, any decisions you make would be done willfully and with a complete understanding of all relevant facts.

 

[ForeverYoung]

Mike Arnold we appreciate you guys being up front about it. To me, this post was more just crazy mike lamenting the current state of GH in general. Not saying you guys were lying about anything or saying it was amazing. But like you said, it often doesn't last. The results I've seen over the years from straight generics have been 15-25. That is obviously a pretty sizable swing.

Here is how I usually look at it folks. I look at the price I am paying, I look at my levels from batches, and I adjust my dosage or my math when reconstituting, to match that. My main guys have consistently delivered generics that are in the 20-25 range, year in and year out. So I think of it like this. I am paying for 100iu..... but it's a bit dirty, to clean it up if I reconstituted it at 80iu I'd be up around 30. If I recalculate that price then I may be completely satisfied, because I am paying 120% of what their price says for the actual amount, but I know what I am putting in my system, and that 120% is still only a fraction of what I'd pay for legit pharmaceutical stuff.

I am okay with that. It is not an ideal situation because there is guessing, there is testing required and all of that other stuff. But I tell you what... considering what I pay per iu.... it is nothing close to a bad situation either.

 

[Mike Arnold]

I could give a huge break and a possible 25 could come from sub Q and not waiting 3 hrs

But even 25 is not acceptable.

Once we as a community give in to anything less than correctly dosed GH we set a standard that will only be chipped away until it's all bad and will never bounce back.

Now is NOT the time to give in guys, hold tight and demand this is corrected!

What?

See bold above: I agree with a lot of what you've said up until this point, Mike, BUT I have to completely disagree with you on the part where you say even a reading of 25 is unacceptable, even though that is very close to meeting pharm-grade potency standards.

In essence, what you're actually saying here is that unless Chinese-grade GH fully & consistently meets U.S pharm-grade potency standards, it is not good enough.

You DO realize that Chinese-grade GH has NEVER consistently met U.S pharm-grade potency standards, right? When I say never...I mean NEVER!

By you telling these guys to "hold tight" on purchasing GH until China starts consitently producing GH at phram-grade potency...they will be waiting FORVEVER! On top of that, you're telling them to not only expect pharm-grade potency consistently, but you're telling them to expect it at Chinese prices! I just don't understand how you could be telling these guys to refuse GH which is near-pharm grade potency when China has NEVER consistently produced GH at that reading.

Also, it doesn't make sense for you to tell these guys not to buy chinese GH at a reading of 25 because "it will cause them to lower their standards even more". How is that possible when their standard has NEVER even been that high? You do you realize that the standard has NEVER been that high, right? It just sounds fucked to hear you telling these guys not to buy GH if China doesn't consistently give Pharm-grade potency at Chinese-grade prices.

Many, many, many, many, many guys have bought GH which would've given readings around 25 and have been very happy. Fuck, I would be happy...I HAVE been happy! See, I do NOT EXPECT Chinese dirt-cheap GH to ALWAYS be as potent as U.S pharm-grade GH...and neither should all these other guys. I mean, come on, bro. I know you are not ignorant on this subject, but your proposal that any Chinese GH which does not perfectly match U.S pharm-grade potency standards is not worth buying...that is a bit out there, in my opinion, especially when it costs so much less than U.S Pharm-grade stuff.


The more I repeat myself, the crazier it sounds. Let me re-phrase what you expect everyon to wait for:

1.) All Chinese-grade GH should meet U.S pharm-grade potency standards or it is unacceptable and should not be purchased. Being even 5 points off is a no-go.

2.) Chinese-grade GH should not only be consistently as potent as U.S Pharm-grade Gh, but it should be considerably cheaper, as well.

3.) No one here should buy any GH which is not at pharm-grade potency...even if it's only 5 points off. Everyone should hold out on purchasing all GH from China until China conforms to your strike pressure.


Did I cover it? While theee may have been some good-natured jesting in this post, this is very much what you're saying. I'll tell you what I would do. I would GLADLY buy Chinese grade GH if I knew it was consistenty testing just below pharm-grade potency...and I would be VERY happy. I agree with you that it would be great if it was consistently pharm-grade potency, but it just seems unrealistic to expect this from China when it has never even come close to happening. Maybe something will cause a masive change in the market in the future, which causes China to produce GH on par with American pharm-grade GH on a consistent basis, but I just don't see anything on the horizon which will make this happen, but I do hope for it...just like you.

 

[Mike Arnold]

Mike Arnold we appreciate you guys being up front about it. To me, this post was more just crazy mike lamenting the current state of GH in general. Not saying you guys were lying about anything or saying it was amazing. But like you said, it often doesn't last. The results I've seen over the years from straight generics have been 15-25. That is obviously a pretty sizable swing.

Here is how I usually look at it folks. I look at the price I am paying, I look at my levels from batches, and I adjust my dosage or my math when reconstituting, to match that. My main guys have consistently delivered generics that are in the 20-25 range, year in and year out. So I think of it like this. I am paying for 100iu..... but it's a bit dirty, to clean it up if I reconstituted it at 80iu I'd be up around 30. If I recalculate that price then I may be completely satisfied, because I am paying 120% of what their price says for the actual amount, but I know what I am putting in my system, and that 120% is still only a fraction of what I'd pay for legit pharmaceutical stuff.

I am okay with that. It is not an ideal situation because there is guessing, there is testing required and all of that other stuff. But I tell you what... considering what I pay per iu.... it is nothing close to a bad situation either.

Than you for putting things in perspective...and I would agree that a "range" of 15-25 is normal for generics (when they actually contains GH, as the amount of fakes is sizable).

Good overall post...common sense. I am glad we have someone here who doesn't "expect" chinese GH to be equal in potency to U.S pharm-grade GH on a consistent basis. That would be great, but unrealistic. I just don't understand how CrazyMike can advise everyone to "hold out" on buying all chinese-grade GH until it is consistently meeting pharm-grade potency standards. To him, even a reading of 25 is unacceptable and he is advsing that no one buy it at that reading, even though the price is way lower than what we would spend on U.S Pharm-grade GH. If Chinese GH was consistently as good as U.S Pharm-grade GH at a fraction of the price, no one would ever buy U.S Pharm-grade GH again, ya' know.

 

[Zeek]

I agree with you Mike except for one detail, several of the chinese generics are in fact scoring 35, 40+ and even 50+ on the serum tests. You can find those all posted on the other board. I'm sure you have a good working relationship with Osiris, just ask him to show you his test on the generics he recently tested.

Even though these chinese generics are scoring high IMO they are still not in the same league with USA pharm grade. If for no other reason than the purity of the product. What they are doing is making up for purity by tossing in extra mgs into their vials and that isn't a bad thing either! Lets just hope the impurities these generics contain don't end up harming any of us in the long run.

There is no need to even compare to pharm grade because the generics simply don't over all. Lets compare generic to generic and doing that there are still several putting out these high numbers, before that certain brands were putting out kick ass high IGF-1 numbers before the GH serum became popular over there.

In the end if our relative can put his HGH into the 35 range from 10iu injected I would switch over and buy from him instead of buying a brand from another board that may have scored 5-6 pts higher. I do place a certain degree of value in a sponsor that actually helps keep this place going and will support them if I am able to. i do require a certain quality level as a minimum though

 

[DaHurt]

I'm also confused, Mike A you say that 25 is very near US pharm grade standards? I thought pharm grade was 38-40 for QC regulation. That is a difference of 13-15 ng/ml which is not trivial at all...in fact it's a difference of close to 40%.

 

[Mike Arnold]

I agree with you Mike except for one detail, several of the chinese generics are in fact scoring 35, 40+ and even 50+ on the serum tests. You can find those all posted on the other board. I'm sure you have a good working relationship with Osiris, just ask him to show you his test on the generics he recently tested.
I know, but that is not normal...or anywhere close to the "average". It is cool when it happens, but it is never consistent and not the "norm".

Pharm-grade GH often tests in the 30's. The reason some of these generics test so high (which I am convinced are only produced at random solely to keep people's hope's up and buying GH) is because they're over-dosed...but that is far from the "average" for chinese generics. When Pharm-grade is consistently testing in the 30's, expecting all chinese generics to consistently equal that and then advising that no one buys any chinese generics until they consistently meet pharm-grade potency standards is...well, not quite right. That is all I was saying.

Even though these chinese generics are scoring high IMO they are still not in the same league with USA pharm grade. If for no other reason than the purity of the product.
Sure, purity is another issue alltogether, but I was only speaking in terms of potency, which I think I made clear. Personally, I would MUCH rather buy a GH product with Chinese purity levels, but which was equally potent to pharm-grade GH at a fraction of the price...and so would everyone else, which is why few people buy U.S Pharm-grade GH..

What they are doing is making up for purity by tossing in extra mgs into their vials and that isn't a bad thing either!
I agree...the high dose GH is awesome! However, I think there is more to it than that. I do NOT think they're trying to "make up" for less than perfect purity. Their much lower pricing already makes up for that. In fact, I don't think it has anything to do with being nice or ethics. I think it is exactly the oppsite. I think the ONLY reason we will see these very high dosed products is to keep the GH buying populace happy and give them hope that great GH is out there. But...if you notice, it never lasts for long. Which company has this high potency GH will change frequently...even sometimes going from great to complete BUNK in a matter of a month! This is no accident. It is not like the manufacturer is making great GH for a certain company and then 2 months later doesn't know how to make GH at all. This is no accident...no mistake...it is intentional. It is only designed to get people buying...a lot of people buying...and then once a bunch of people are "all in"...bam...it goes to bunk or under-dosed. Then a bit later another company has the "great" GH...and the pattern is repeated.

Lets just hope the impurities these generics contain don't end up harming any of us in the long run.
Excess residual insulin is probably the primary concer, but it's very rarely a seroius concern. I agree though, I hope nothing serious ever happens.

There is no need to even compare to pharm grade because the generics simply don't over all.
I was only comparing to Pharm-gradein terms of potency and I compared to pharm-grade for a reason...because pharm-grae IS the potency standard by which all other GH products are judged...and I was trying to show what is considered acceptable numbers for a generic.

Lets compare generic to generic and doing that there are still several putting out these high numbers, before that certain brands were putting out kick ass high IGF-1 numbers before the GH serum became popular over there.

In the end if our relative can put his HGH into the 35 range from 10iu injected I would switch over and buy from him instead of buying a brand from another board that may have scored 5-6 pts higher. I do place a certain degree of value in a sponsor that actually helps keep this place going and will support them if I am able to. i do require a certain quality level as a minimum though
I agree...certain standards need to be met. No doubt. If someone knew for certain aGH product was giving readings in the 40's and some of that same batch was left, they would be foolish to buy a product witha reading of 10 over 40. I hear ya'. I agree with you on loyalty, as well. I would NOT buy from someone other than Uncle only because the other guy's Gh was tad better. Small differences will not make a discernable difference, but significant differences will.

.....

 

[Mike Arnold]

I'm also confused, Mike A you say that 25 is very near US pharm grade standards? I thought pharm grade was 38-40 for QC regulation. That is a difference of 13-15 ng/ml which is not trivial at all...in fact it's a difference of close to 40%.

Anywhere in the 30's is considered a pharm-grade reading. It could be 40, but on average, it's in the 30's. Also, there is varaince in response from person to person. It is not always the same...not even close. 25 is not too far off from that.

 

[ForeverYoung]

Basically was saying what Mike Arnold says. Those kind of numbers cannot last, and will not last. You see outliers, but I would rather go with someone who for cheaper, is consistently year in and year out providing something that averages between 20-25 than someone who can put out a batch of 50's and then make bank on bunk a few weeks later. I am very skeptical of those results, to say the least. I myself do not consider them the new "base" standard, and I'm with Mike Arnold in that I do not at all consider them to be over dosing to make up for impurity, but rather to create the kind of hype that we're seeing right now. There is a reason for that, and the reason is that they will make more money in the long run.

 

[Zeek]

I am only touching on this because the facts warrant that I point thesee thing sout in reference to these generics scoring high.

The same brand osiris tested 50 on the Gh serum recently has been testing in the 500+ range for a long time from IGF- tests on 4-5 IU's of the GH! before the gh serum became so popular i was expected for pharm grade GH to produce slightly higher than 100 pts to the IGF-1 levels. This is not in addition to your baseline btw but a total number. So going back even a year that generic has been scoring fantastic for potency.

The other generic now scoring low 40's was producing excellent IGF-1 tests also, often scoring very close to the 100 per iu injected or slightly over.

Even low 30's i can be ok with since that would be accurately dosed HGH and not overdosed HGH. I'm not able to discuss the actual mgs the above two tested out at because that info is on another board and they do not wish it spread around the net on different boards. I'm sure you have seen those tests. I can say that standard pharm grade HGH is about 3.3 mgs per 10iu vial.

 

[Mike Arnold]

I am only touching on this because the facts warrant that I point thesee thing sout in reference to these generics scoring high.

The same brand osiris tested 50 on the Gh serum recently has been testing in the 500+ range for a long time from IGF- tests on 4-5 IU's of the GH! before the gh serum became so popular i was expected for pharm grade GH to produce slightly higher than 100 pts to the IGF-1 levels. This is not in addition to your baseline btw but a total number. So going back even a year that generic has been scoring fantastic for potency.

The other generic now scoring low 40's was producing excellent IGF-1 tests also, often scoring very close to the 100 per iu injected or slightly over.

Even low 30's i can be ok with since that would be accurately dosed HGH and not overdosed HGH. I'm not able to discuss the actual mgs the above two tested out at because that info is on another board and they do not wish it spread around the net on different boards. I'm sure you have seen those tests. I can say that standard pharm grade HGH is about 3.3 mgs per 10iu vial.

There have been some crazy batches out there...no doubt..and a "few" have even been testing out well for a little while now, BUT...the majority of these companies who sell over-dosed Gh will only do so for a very short time, then it's right back to unde-dosed or bunk GH...often from great to bunk in one batch.

Many, many people have been brutally ripped off chasing the next great deal. I would even wager to say that a very large percentage of these deal chasers have ended up buying as much bunk or severaly under-dosed GH as they have real GH. So, while it is g reat while it lasts, the next grand they drop might be dropped right in the toliet...and let me tell you, when that happens, it SUCKS!

If you're able to follow the scene well and have personal relationships wit certain indiviuals, it is posible to be able to consistently capitolize on the next great deal and get out before it is to late, but there are many occasions where even the most connected people end up getting fucked!

If I knew I could depend on a company to consistently produce GH numbering in the 25 range, year in and year out...I would be content to stick with them. I know some people are more happy chasing the next great deal, but I am just not into it anymore...I am done taking the risk. Even a 1 in 10 risk is too high for me today. I realize plenty of people will see it differentlyand that's cool, but I have trouble trusting most people in this industry anymore. I do trust Z and OD and consider them friends. I don't think they would ever rip me off, lead me astray or tell me something that wasn't true just to make money on me.

 

[ForeverYoung]

Agreed, I can't see these lasting. And considering what I pay for mid 20's is far less than these that for now test high but who knows moving forward.... well, I'm happy to stick with where I'm at. It is important to keep this information out there so as many people as possible can stay on top of the situation. In all honesty, it would make things much easier if actual sources and prices could be discussed, only because when it comes to generics you can't say "blue tops are scoring in the 30's right now" because my blue tops might be getting 25's, yours might be getting 40s, and I might be paying more than you. It is all relative to the dollars spent in my opinion, given the generally fluctuating nature of it all. If you can find a source that is consistent in what they're putting out, for a price that you feel is fair or better, I would say stick with them because jumping from band wagon to band wagon will likely have you ass out given a bit of time.

 

[DaHurt]

Basically was saying what Mike Arnold says. Those kind of numbers cannot last, and will not last. You see outliers, but I would rather go with someone who for cheaper, is consistently year in and year out providing something that averages between 20-25 than someone who can put out a batch of 50's and then make bank on bunk a few weeks later. I am very skeptical of those results, to say the least. I myself do not consider them the new "base" standard, and I'm with Mike Arnold in that I do not at all consider them to be over dosing to make up for impurity, but rather to create the kind of hype that we're seeing right now. There is a reason for that, and the reason is that they will make more money in the long run.

Who consistently year in and year out averages 20-25? I haven't seen anybody (aside from pharm grade) that has consistently averaged anything.

 

[Zeek]

At the end of the day if the relative can give me low 30's for readings on avg I will drop the rest and go strictly with him as I'm sure dozens of other HGH users on this site will too.

We really want to support our own! Make it happen for us Mike! I'm pulling for you brother!

 

[heavyiron]

Just fyi, Mass Spec had blue tops at 95% purity last May. In fact, several generics came back 95% so I'm not sure we can fairly say all generics are not pure. The issues is more the potency not purity.

If anyone wants to see the Mass Spec results feel free to PM me.

Thanks

 

[crazyfmike]

At the end of the day if the relative can give me low 30's for readings on avg I will drop the rest and go strictly with him as I'm sure dozens of other HGH users on this site will too.

We really want to support our own! Make it happen for us Mike! I'm pulling for you brother!

I have nothing against Z or Mike A. My beef is with these Chinese bastards!

After my 3.3 a 17.9 sounds good but if we give in to that as acceptable we shoot ourselves in the foot.