Insulin shot and timing with GH?

[hhajdo]

Actually, the study says that "the reduction of serum 22K-hGH level after 20K-hGH administration required a period of ca. 4 h, and the level tended to recover by 24 h"

..which can be seen from the graph:

Figure 2. Mean serum 20K-hGH (A) and 22K-hGH (B) levels in normal men after single sc administration of placebo and 20K-hGH. Sera were analyzed by 20K-hGH and 22K-hGH ELISA, respectively. The values are means ± SE (n = 6–8). Placebo and 20K-hGH (0.01–0.1 mg/kg) were administered at 2100 h. In the placebo group, the typical nyctohemeral variations in hGH secretion were observed.

 

[hhajdo]

Morning injection might cause less suppression, but GH response to GHRH is significantly reduced for more than 12 hours...


Clin Endocrinol (Oxf) 1987 Jan;26(1):117-23 Related Articles, Links

Growth hormone pretreatment in man blocks the response to growth hormone-releasing hormone; evidence for a direct effect of growth hormone.

Ross RJ, Borges F, Grossman A, Smith R, Ngahfoong L, Rees LH, Savage MO, Besser GM.

The effect of pretreatment with biosynthetic methionyl human GH (hGH) on the GH response to GHRH has been studied in normal subjects. Eight volunteers were given either 4 IU hGH or placebo s.c. 12-hourly for 72 h before a GHRH test, or a single s.c. dose of 4 IU hGH 12 h before a GHRH test. Somatomedin-C (Sm-C) levels at the time of the GHRH tests were significantly elevated after treatment with hGH compared to placebo, and the GH response to GHRH was significantly attenuated. A further six subjects were given 2 IU hGH or placebo i.v., and i.v. GHRH 3 h later; there was no rise in Sm-C for the 5 h of the study after either treatment; nevertheless, the response to GHRH was completely abolished by pretreatment with hGH. These results demonstrate that GH can regulate its own secretion independently of changes in Sm-C levels, through a mechanism other than the inhibition of GHRH release. The attenuated response to GHRH in the presence of elevated Sm-C levels may be related to Sm-C, or be a more direct effect of the recently elevated GH levels.

 

[hhajdo]

Suppression of the growth hormone (GH) response to clonidine and GH-releasing hormone by exogenous GH.

Nakamoto JM, Gertner JM, Press CM, Hintz RL, Rosenfeld RG, Genel M.

GH release in response to clonidine and human GH-releasing hormone-(1-44) (hGHRH-44) was assessed in 11 boys (aged 7-14 yr) with short stature, who had normal GH secretion. The response to these 2 provocative stimuli was repeated after, respectively, 2 and 3 days of treatment with human GH (0.1 U/kg, im). Exogenous GH significantly blunted the response to both clonidine [the mean 2-h integrated serum GH concentration falling from 1050 +/- 350 (+/- SEM) to 749 +/- 297 ng/ml X min; P = 0.03] and hGHRH-44, the 2-h integrated GH concentration falling from 1553 +/- 358 to 547 +/- 202 ng/ml X min; (P = 0.03). Plasma insulin-like growth factor (IGF-II) concentrations did not change after GH administration. In contrast, plasma IGF-I (somatomedin-C) concentrations increased from 97 +/- 16 ng/ml before administration of GH to 142 +/- 32 ng/ml (P = 0.05) after two days and 149 +/- 23 ng/ml (P less than 0.01) after the third treatment day. However, no correlation was found between the changes in response to clonidine or hGHRH-44 and changes in circulating levels of IGF-I. Our data confirm the existence of GH-dependent feedback inhibition of GH release during childhood and suggest that this inhibition operates, at least in part, at the level of the pituitary. While participation of the IGFs/somatomedins in this feedback loop cannot be excluded, the inhibitory effects of exogenous GH do not depend directly on circulating plasma IGF-I or IGF-II levels.

 

[hhajdo]

J Clin Invest 1986 Jan;77(1):176-80 Related Articles, Links


Exogenous growth hormone inhibits growth hormone-releasing factor-induced growth hormone secretion in normal men.

Rosenthal SM, Hulse JA, Kaplan SL, Grumbach MM.

Previous studies from this laboratory and by others in rats, monkeys, and humans support the concept that growth hormone (GH) can regulate its own secretion through an autofeedback mechanism. With the availability of human growth hormone-releasing factor (GRF), the possible existence of such a mechanism was reexplored by examining the effect of exogenous GH on the GH response induced by GRF-44-NH2 in six normal men (mean age, 32.4 yr). In all subjects the plasma GH response evoked by GRF-44-NH2 (1 microgram/kg i.v. bolus) was studied before and after 5 d of placebo (1 ml normal saline i.m. every 12 h), and then before and 12 h after 5 d of biosynthetic methionyl human GH (5 U i.m. every 12 h). The GH response to GRF (maximal increment over time 0 value) was significantly inhibited after GH treatment (0-1.3 vs. 2.3-11.2 ng/ml before treatment, P = 0.05), but was not significantly affected by placebo. This impaired pituitary response to GRF persisted for at least 24 h following exogenous GH treatment in two subjects who underwent further study. Serum somatomedin-C concentrations were significantly increased after 5 d of GH treatment (2.66-5.00 vs. 0.92-1.91 U/ml before treatment, P = less than 0.01). The impaired pituitary response to GRF may be mediated indirectly through somatomedin, somatostatin, by a direct effect of GH on the pituitary somatotropes, or by all of these mechanisms. These data suggest that after GH treatment, the blunted GH response to synthetic GRF is not solely a consequence of the inhibition of hypothalamic GRF secretion.




I would still expect that morning injection wouldn't have as much impact on sleep-related growth hormone secretion....

 

[supergirl]

Thanks Hhajdo

 

[SWALE]

Inhibition is by a matter of degrees--it is not an on/off proposition. The point would be to minimize suppression by giving one's GH injection as early in the day as possible, thereby maximizing endogenous production while you sleep. Otherwise, why take 1-2iu per day as HRT?

 

[hhajdo]

I posted those few studies because an assumption was made that if you take your GH at night, you suppress your own GH production while morning injection may not affect it which is not true according to the first study posted.

I'm not trying to suggest a certain protocol as superior.

Morning injection should (in theory) cause less suppression like you say, but I'm not going to make a claim that it will unless I can prove it.

You can see from the graph that endogenous GH was suppressed by almost 50 % even 16 hours after GH was administered.

 

[SWALE]

It is a matter of lessening the effect of inhibition from the exogenously supplied GH--and clearly the longer the time interval between your shot and bedtime, the better off you will be. This is because inhibition is falling off with time. Because there is some inhibition still at the end of the day does not mean there is no difference between AM and PM injections.

 

[hhajdo]

The researchers considered the impact of exogenous GH on endogenous 22K-hGH secretion during the first 6 hours after GH administration insignificant:

..."There were no significant changes in the AUC0–6 h between the 20K-hGH-treated and placebo groups..."

The greatest suppression was noticed from 6-12 hours after administration.

From 12-18 hours & 18-24 hours endogenous GH "tended to be suppressed in the 20K-hGH-treated groups, although differences were not significant compared with the placebo group."


So you still have to worry about IGF-1 negative feedback loop although GH levels would drop.....

"On the other hand, serum IGF-I levels were not increased significantly at 4 h, but were increased at 8, 12, 24 , and 36 h"


Even studies like this one don't mean much since we don't know what would happen with chronic use....

 

[compman]

I don't know about all this. Insulin and GH just seem to risky for me. It has to put a beating on your organs! How long can the body keep healthy with Test, thyroid, GH, insulin, and all the rest of the crap, together. It just sounds like suicide!!!!

I'll just stick with basic gear

 

[supergirl]

ok.. IMO bedtime shots are still the way to go... allow me to explain...

once exogenous gh is administered, there is a delay in execution, basically meaning that it takes about 4 hours for the exogenous to kick in... NOW, when you go to bed, within 2 hours of REM, your endougenous gh is produced.. so therefore it is plausible if you time everything on the dot to take a shot, go directly to sleep, get a burst of natural gh, and THEN have the exogenous gh kick in getting a double whammy!!!!!
Then by the time for your next bedtime shot it will be over the 12hours and natural gh will be working right on schedule

this has been my view point (although much more clearly stated now) since the getgo... i have always sworn by bedtime shots and IMO with experimenting both ways, my body likes the bedtime shots better... at least from a theraputic point of view!! Faster healing and recovery, better sleep, no more old injuries...


This thread is AWESOME!!!! thanks to all for their contributions!!! This needs to be in the hall of fame!!

 

[SWALE]

Supergirl--That is an interesting idea, to be sure. I'm also thankful you are able to fall into deep sleep immediately--many can't.

And ya, this thread is pretty tasty stuff!

hhajdo--I don't have the knowledge base regarding GH yet to know differentially how IGF-1 and GH compare with respect to their ability to suppress. I would note, however, that results which are statistically insignificant are to be ignored.

 

[hhajdo]

What I meant to say is that exo GH had little impact on endo GH during the first 6 hours, the max. suppression was noticed from 6-12 hours after GH administration and after 12 hours it began to decline...

 

[SWALE]

Cool. Well, unless I am missing something, that would certainly lead us to think before-bedtime shots would be best. Or would it be best taken upon arising, when we would not be retiring for 16 hours?

A4M--the world's foremost Hormone Replacement Therapy (HRT) medicine association, recommends AM GH injections.

 

[RoadHouse]

I wouldnt benefit from pre-bed injections i dont think, i really kidn of just lay in bed/ half awake, half asleep for about 2-3 hours, so i have no idea when i go into deep REM.

 

[SWALE]

That also makes an excellent point.

 

[hhajdo]

Cool. Well, unless I am missing something, that would certainly lead us to think before-bedtime shots would be best. Or would it be best taken upon arising, when we would not be retiring for 16 hours?

A small dose like 2 IU's taken early in the morning shouldn't affect your bedtime pulse much(in theory), and in combination with the bedtime peak may give you a better 24 hour GH profile....

I'm really not sure which protocol would be the best since there's no info about what happens with chronic use....

In this abstract, GH was administered twice ED @ 2 IU's, & the effect of GH on sleep-related growth hormone secretion
was studied 6 hours after last injection....


Negative feedback suppression of sleep-related growth hormone secretion
WB Mendelson, LS Jacobs and JC Gillin


Previous studies have demonstrated that injections of growth hormone (GH) can blunt subsequent GH secretory responses to daytime pharmacological stimulation. The current study was undertaken to determine whether GH administration to normal subjects would suppress sleep-related secretion. GH (2 U im) was given nine times over 5 days to each of six subjects, and sleep studies with blood sampling were performed 6 h after the last injection. Secretion during the first 2 h of sleep was decreased by 62.4%, indicating that sleep-related GH secretion may be responsive to a negative-feedback mechanism.

 

[SWALE]

It's good communicating with you about this. We ought to be able to figure it out, eh?

 

[supergirl]

well i take 2ius at bedtime.. great results!! especially now knowing more solidly that there is a 6hr delay.. almost when it is time to wake up exogenous is kicking in... cool

 

[Jyzza]

well i take 2ius at bedtime.. great results!! especially now knowing more solidly that there is a 6hr delay.. almost when it is time to wake up exogenous is kicking in... cool

SG..do you also take am injections?