SWALE on some testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) drama...very good info with the drama

[EZstreet]

I made a big post about the very subject of these boards. Where else you you experience a living experiment in of this scale!? IF an MD really wanted to increase his knowledge he would use some humility and realize these boards are the best possible way with the hugest number of participants. THis would cause a realization neve before recognized in medical history.
But do you think the majority of these arrogant bastards would do that? NO! They are beyond learning from people who do not hold titles and they keep themselves insulated from evolving with the true realities of helping people and not just being an extensioin of the big phamacueticals money hand!
If nothing else the would learn about interacting with people.

I.e. I've palyed guitar for 25 years and there is no musician I have jammed with, regardless of accomplishments or lack thereof, I will walk away from without having a new idea of something I never really thought about.
If I thought I was the shit and so far above everyone else I would've stagnated years ago! Which is precisely what most doc's do stagnate and refuse to accept anything other than their old ways etched in stone. They get paid and their patients lose!!!

 

[SWALE]

EZ--I could not agree more. Many doctors get complacent, and act as if we are all supposed to be so impressed with a bunch of acumulated credentials, that they forget most of these dinosaurs are the ones who are holding up the true advancement of medicine. I am only impressed with pure performance. WHAT does the doctor actually know about his or her field, and what can they do for others?!

This is the same thinking which got Dr. Joseph Lister thrown out of medicine for daring to suggest that Surgeons (who are probably the least intelligent of all physicians, but the hardest working and most effective) might want to actually wash their hands, and change their blood and feces-soaked gowns between surgeries. Of course, he gets back at them when we gargle now (Listerine).

 

[rjx]

Whenever the intellectual brawling begins, I have my money on SWALE.

If the result of the CEM BS means that you post on this forum more than you have in the past, then I can totally dig that. I feel sorry for the members of CEM that benefited from your posts and that will miss you though. I hope they still know where to find you.

 

[EZstreet]

"This is the same thinking which got Dr. Joseph Lister thrown out of medicine for daring to suggest that Surgeons (who are probably the least intelligent of all physicians, but the hardest working and most effective) might want to actually wash their hands, and change their blood and feces-soaked gowns between surgeries. Of course, he gets back at them when we gargle now (Listerine)."

I started to bring that one up! LOL Yes he gets back even when we use "Scope"

 

[SWALE]

Well, I just got an email from one of the Bro's telling me that this Dr. James is selling Winstrol and Deca, along with high dose testosterone, as "TRT". Is it any wonder why those of us who practice appropriate Hormone Replacement Therapy (HRT) would turn our backs on him in disdain? He makes us all look like steroid dealers to the conventional medical community. It just takes a few bad apples in the bushel basket...

Perhaps he is unaware of the effects of Winstrol on the Lipid profile. Or the profound ability of Deca to induce long-term impotence (as we all have seen). When it comes to making money, I guess it doesn't matter to him.

 

[muscleup]

Well, I just got an email from one of the Bro's telling me that this Dr. James is selling Winstrol and Deca, along with high dose testosterone, as "TRT". Is it any wonder why those of us who practice appropriate Hormone Replacement Therapy (HRT) would turn our backs on him in disdain? He makes us all look like steroid dealers to the conventional medical community. It just takes a few bad apples in the bushel basket...

Perhaps he is unaware of the effects of Winstrol on the Lipid profile. Or the profound ability of Deca to induce long-term impotence (as we all have seen). When it comes to making money, I guess it doesn't matter to him.

deca to me, is the worst body buliding drug ever...

 

[SWALE]

I always cringe when a hypogonadal patient comes to me telling me he has used Deca. I know it is going to take me a bunch of extra work to get him straightened out, and that he may be miserable for some time.

 

[ulter]

deca to me, is the worst body buliding drug ever...

For 99% of those who use deca it's not problematic as long as it's used WITH test.
Recovery is fairly simple and basically the same as any other cycle with respect to the methods and drugs used. It's just takes longer to recover from if it's not used with test. Or if you don't use test in some form during the recovery, assuming it's not going as planned.
Let's say you're 4 weeks into your post cycle therapy (pct) and see no change and you've come to realize that your symptoms are the same as when you started. Just adding dbol or test gel will generally take care of any libido or similar symptoms as you recover. These drugs might prolong the recovery time somewhat but they will make it much easier to endure. It's really not that hard. I have walked a couple hundred guys through it without incident over the last 10 years just for the asking.
And I did it without cringing too.

 

[SWALE]

What you are talking about is not testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) Medicine, though. There is nothing in what you posted which relates to the topic at hand.

Where did you get the "99%" figure you published? The statistics look different to me, becasuse I am getting guys who are now suffering what seems to be ireversible hypogonadism, secondary to Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) use. When they list Deca, the picture becomes more complicated. I have just seen it too many times.

 

[Schumacher]

SWALE, how long were those guys on deca? Did they use moderate doses in 8 week cycles along with testosterone?

 

[SWALE]

Schumacher--They came from all dosages and durations, it seems to me. Strange thing is, some just used it once, and at a pretty low dosage. That is why I never use it in testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) Medicine. And it can cause gyno which I cannot control with any kind of anti-E. Besides that, as you have no doubt heard a lot of the Bro's say, "test is best". I love testosterone, and do not feel that test cyp is an "unnatural form" of it, as some in my field claim. Also, as I practice only legitimate testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) Medicine, I am limited by the top of physiological range for androgen levels. Going beyond that damages health, and guys find, in the long run, that is (surprisingly) where they truly feel the best. So how much room do I have for total dosing if I am going to cut into the test cyp dose to prescribe Deca? Test cyp is vastly superior to Deca, except perhaps with respect to anti-inflammatory effect in the joints (many say).

I am not sure if that answers your question. Did you mean 8 week cycles as AAS, or as an innappropriate testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) "cycle"?

 

[Schumacher]

SWALE, thanks for the reply. I was referring to 8 week Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) cycles. I was under the impression that problems with deca usually occured from using for extended durations. Do you feel that using deca (200mg/wk) for the first 4 weeks of a testosterone based cycle could cause issues?

I was also wondering if you could further comment on Ulter's post. Do you feel that incorporating test with deca can mitigate 'deca problems' or do you feel the test just masks the problems?

I have no personal experience with deca and have no plans to use it, but this is a pretty interesting topic.

 

[muscleup]

well I tried a 16 week cycle of deca and test 2 years ago...My dick would not get hard for weeks, so I scheduled an appointment with a urologist...I had my test levels checked it came back @400 +, 8 weeks after clomid...Prolactin was normal, LH was normal, and my dick STILL would not work...I still have problems with erections{This is why I will be getting SWALES consultaion after my next cycle} and I believe it's mainly from deca...I could be wrong though... but I will NEVER touch it again...I love TEST

 

[EZstreet]

That's weird! And you say this happens when you're with women? maybe you're

 

[muscleup]

great and informative response dick cheese...

 

[Realgains]

Well, I just got an email from one of the Bro's telling me that this Dr. James is selling Winstrol and Deca, along with high dose testosterone, as "TRT". Is it any wonder why those of us who practice appropriate Hormone Replacement Therapy (HRT) would turn our backs on him in disdain? He makes us all look like steroid dealers to the conventional medical community. It just takes a few bad apples in the bushel basket...

Perhaps he is unaware of the effects of Winstrol on the Lipid profile. Or the profound ability of Deca to induce long-term impotence (as we all have seen). When it comes to making money, I guess it doesn't matter to him.

I do not doubt that any steroid can have positive affects at very low dose in some regards but we simply cannot turn our eyes away from their negative on the lipid profile including ldl and especially HDLc. Short term, and in the relatively young man, this is not really an issue but over the long hall and especially as we enter middle age and above I think it becomes a real concern.

Also, they do place some stress on the liver even at low dose and even though it may seem small and insignificant it can all be avoided simply by using testosterone at a dose that dose not raise T levels above the normal range.

Notice the tiny dose of winstrol. Also note that the dose of test used is TWICE that of a normal Hormone Replacement Therapy (HRT) dose for most men.

Contrasting effects of testosterone and stanozolol on serum lipoprotein levels.

Thompson PD, Cullinane EM, Sady SP, Chenevert C, Saritelli AL, Sady MA, Herbert PN.

Department of Medicine, Miriam Hospital, Providence, RI 02906.

Oral anabolic steroids produce striking reductions in serum concentrations of high-density lipoprotein (HDL) cholesterol. We hypothesized that this effect related to their route of administration and was unrelated to their androgenic potency. We administered oral stanozolol (6 mg/d) or supraphysiological doses of intramuscular testosterone enanthate (200 mg/wk) to 11 male weight lifters for six weeks in a crossover design. Stanozolol reduced HDL-cholesterol and the HDL2 subfraction by 33% and 71%, respectively. In contrast, testosterone decreased HDL-cholesterol concentration by only 9% and the decrease was in the HDL3 subfraction. Apolipoprotein A-I level decreased 40% during stanozolol but only 8% during testosterone treatment. The low-density lipoprotein cholesterol concentration increased 29% with stanozolol and decreased 16% with testosterone treatment. Stanozolol, moreover, increased postheparin hepatic triglyceride lipase activity by 123%, whereas the maximum change during testosterone therapy (+25%) was not significant. Weight gain was similar with both drugs, but testosterone was more effective in suppressing gonadotropic hormones. We conclude that the undesirable lipoprotein effects of 17-alpha-alkylated steroids given orally are different from those of parenteral testosterone and that the latter may be preferable in many clinical situations.



RG

 

[EZstreet]

"dick cheese"


Damn I haven't heard that since I was in school!

 

[randy8411]

$$$$$$$

$$$$$$

$$$$$

You guys get the idea IMHO!

 

[xtinct]

I do not doubt that any steroid can have positive affects at very low dose in some regards but we simply cannot turn our eyes away from their negative on the lipid profile including ldl and especially HDLc. Short term, and in the relatively young man, this is not really an issue but over the long hall and especially as we enter middle age and above I think it becomes a real concern.

RG

Can you please refer me to a study where it was shown that the HDL lowering effect of compounds like winstrol cause any kind of health problem in a population similar to what most bodybuilders are like (non-obese, non-diabetic, physically active).

If such studies do not exist, then your statement is in the same category as "high protein diets will damage your kidneys" and "high fat diets will give you heart disease."

 

[Realgains]

Can you please refer me to a study where it was shown that the HDL lowering effect of compounds like winstrol cause any kind of health problem in a population similar to what most bodybuilders are like (non-obese, non-diabetic, physically active).

If such studies do not exist, then your statement is in the same category as "high protein diets will damage your kidneys" and "high fat diets will give you heart disease."

Go to Medscape.com

Look up hdl.
Look up total cholesterol to hdl ratio.
Look up elevated ldl and low hdl.

There are TONS of studies bro...this is no BS bro.

A crappy total cholesterol to hdl ratio is the most important lipid indicator for the developement of heart disease. Not only that but ldl elevation is very bad too and Winstrol (winny) does both bro.

In fact the studies say that there have been MANY men die of heart attacks with the ONLY risk factor being a poor hdl....no smoking, no diabetes, no obesity, etc etc..

BRO....activity and an A#1 lifestyle didn't prolong Jim Fixx's life( he was a top marathoner as you probably know) He died in his early 50's while running (heart attack) and the only risk factor he had was a poor lipid profile, with low hdl and somewhat high ldl.

I know for a fact that "ARNOLD" had more than a valve done in LA.....I am an OR nurse in LA as well as a trainer.

Then there is Mike Mentzer dead at age 50....very active guy too....long term heavy steroid user

Lots of old pro's have had heart attacks in their 50's bro....or bypass surgery.

Look bro....I am no "alarmist" and I think most of the negative stuff said about roids is total BS...but we can't "stick our heads in the sand" and deny the single worst side of gear use and that is a shitty lipid profile.

To use them in cycles for 5-10 and maybe even 20 years while relatively young might not cause much of a problem in this regard but to be on a 17aa roid LONG TERM for HRT, and especially as we enter our 40's and up is totally nuts.

Do you want to have a shitty lipid profile for years on end and non stop....why would you since Hormone Replacement Therapy (HRT) with test is available, and elevating T to mid or high normal levels never affects the lipid profile in a negative way and almost always makes it better.



RG