The mean of '' benzyl benzoate ''

[Buttman3]

Buttman3, I am not sure I understand what you may disagree with; just the PIP of a crystallized product? If so, then I agree. It is user dependent in my experience, as I have used test suspension 100mg/ml that recrystallized (first batch I only used about 15% BB) and did not really experience any pain.

I was just unsure about whether or not the PIP is caused by hormone forming crystal.

I have read this study before, actually. It is interesting info, but they are administering large amounts of high percentages of BB in animals most weighing less than 1/4 of a human. Benzoic acid (which is converted from BB and BA) can definitely be toxic, however I don't think our use of them in these compounds are cause for concern.

You're right. The concentration of BB that they inject into these animals was higher than in what is used in human (33% compared to 20%). In addition, they injected a large amount into these animals in a short period of time.

So as far as BB in human use is concerned, because we use a lower concentration and spread out the shots, we might not see the toxic effect right away. But I think that if we use it long term, the effects could add up over time. Thus, I would personally be really cautious and not use BB unless I really have to.

Plus I think the FDA would jump all over these drug companies making these pharmaceutical injectables were there enough evidence to do so.

Yes, the FDA would definitely jump all over them

. But one of the potential problems when it comes to drugs that have slow cumulative effects that we cannot see right away is that it's harder to prove unless there are long-term studies - and these cost a lot of time and money.

Therefore, unless the drugs in question is high on the priority list, I would guess that chances are, the FDA would not spend their time and money on investigating them, unless someone files a major lawsuit. And even then, the process might take years of investigation, going through all the bureaucracy and political hula hoops. By then, if there is some truths to the danger of said drugs, the consumers are already screwed

.

Cheers and thank you for an interesting conversation.

 

[Buttman3]

Why do the big name drug companies use up to 20% BB in their long ester injectables?

This is a good question. By "long ester injectables", are you referring to Test Cypionate? If so, then I think I know why they might use BB for Cyp. It prevents it from crashing or crystallizing. I haven't brew Cyp, but I have read from other posters who said that Cyp is easy to crash.

Thousands of people on testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) could have well over 100ml BB injected into themselves by the time the die. Is there just a lack of long term studies that show detrimental effects of BB or is it simply geared towards the end user in that more BB = smaller pins?

I'm basically asking why they decided to go this route in the first place. Was it simply tradition or obvious conclusion based on animal tests?

I really don't think potential long-term ill effects caused by drugs is a major ethical concern for the CEOs and owners of these giant pharmaceutical companies, unless it directly affects them financially and legally.

If these companies product has no PIP, then why might mine at the same concentration of hormone?

I have never used pharmaceutical grade Test, so I don't know if pharm grade products has no PIP, but from reading other people's posts on testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) (Testosterone Replacement Therapy) where they use prescription Test, there are PIP:

TRT Injection Pain

Is it the new nemesis on the block carbolic acid (ie shitty raws)? Is it that typical HB uses 2% BA to fight sterility whereas pharma grade only needs 0.9%? It seems the theory that 20%BB=never any PIP has been squashed, but was it due to outside reasons like those mentioned above and/or higher concentrations?

There are so many factors that can cause PIP.

BA is definitely one of the causes because it's an alcohol, and when the concentration is high, it will cause irritation and damage tissues. I believe I have seen at least one research study to confirm this, but I'm too lazy at the moment to dig up the link

. (You should be able to find it with Google)

BB is another, as I mentioned in the previous post with a research study.

There has been speculations about carbolic acid (in Test E?) as one of the causes for PIP. While I don't know whether or not there is any truths to the carbolic acid claim, I do know that Test E at around 200mg/ml (no BA/BB) do cause pain that last for a day or so.

Another cause for PIP is injecting a large volume of oil (1.5-2ml) into one site. I have had this happened to me, but the pain is very different from the kind of pain I got from BA/BB pain. It was a mild and dull pain. It hurt slightly when I sleep and roll on the side of the butt cheek where I injected.

On the other hand, the pain I got from BA/BB was more of a stinging, crippling pain that I can feel it deep in the muscles and joints, accompanied by aches around the area with flu-like symptoms such as feeling weak.

It seems to me that PIP is a hoop too many of us are jumping through when the reason it exists is right under our nose.

I'm sorry to beat a dead horse, but I love the discussion going on here. Please continue.

So far, I have experienced only two mild cases of PIP with my brew - one was the Test E, and one was with injecting 1.5-2ml into a single spot. Overall, I get no PIP whatsoever, and I believe it has a lot to do with mine not using neither BA nor BB.

 

[DrHiney]

Why do the big name drug companies use up to 20% BB in their long ester injectables? Thousands of people on testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) could have well over 100ml BB injected into themselves by the time the die. Is there just a lack of long term studies that show detrimental effects of BB

Precisely.

I'm basically asking why they decided to go this route in the first place. Was it simply tradition or obvious conclusion based on animal tests?

It was based on studies, using both what we know about chemistry and biochemistry, as well as studies done on animals. Seeing as pharmaceutical companies pioneered these formulas, they were not simply following a tradition, so to speak.

If these companies product has no PIP, then why might mine at the same concentration of hormone?

Their products can cause PIP just like homebrews. However, most people just equate it to "virgin muscle syndrome" -both the muscles reaction to the damage done by the needle, as well as inflammation induced as an immune response to a foreign substance in the body-. Also the lack of anecdotal PIP for testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) users, is usally due to the low dose, and low frequency of injections.

Is it the new nemesis on the block carbolic acid (ie shitty raws)? Is it that typical HB uses 2% BA to fight sterility whereas pharma grade only needs 0.9%?

Carbolic acid or carboxylic acid? Carbolic acid(phenol) may be responsible in these chinese raws, he only way to know would be to assay he powders. Carboxylic acid is what is combined with an alcohol to form an eser. The lower amount of BA in pharma grade is a very possible reason for lower evidence of PIP with these products. Pharma grade, unlike homebrews, are made in an ISO class 5 environment, and each batch is tested for efficacy and sterility. The lack of equipment and testing is why we always recommend a high %BA for homebrewers. However, I myself have access to a laminar flow hood as well as a convection oven, so all of my brews are sterile .

 

[DrHiney]

On the other hand, the pain I got from BA/BB was more of a stinging, crippling pain that I can feel it deep in the muscles and joints, accompanied by aches around the area with flu-like symptoms such as feeling weak.

I have heard of what has been referred to as "test flu". However in all of the evidence I have found, I have yet to single out the culprit. IMO it is merely due to the body reacting to injury in the muscle and a foreign substance being introduced. The rest of the immune system may lower in order for the body to "fight" the oil you have injected and this is what leads to these fl-like symptoms.

 

[Buttman3]

I have heard of what has been referred to as "test flu". However in all of the evidence I have found, I have yet to single out the culprit. IMO it is merely due to the body reacting to injury in the muscle and a foreign substance being introduced. The rest of the immune system may lower in order for the body to "fight" the oil you have injected and this is what leads to these fl-like symptoms.

It's really difficult to single out the culprit since there are so many things that could potentially be the culprit

.

I have heard of people saying "virgin muscle" is one of the possible reasons for these PIPs.
I have also heard of the Prop ester (in Test) being the possible reason.

What I can conclude from using UGL gears is that neither are the reason.

A few years ago, when I first started with gear for the very first time, I tried pharm grade Deca, UGL Deca, and UGL Test Prop.

My first run was pharm grade Deca (1ml/week for 2 weeks). Had absolutely no pain. Gained over 1.35kg (3lbs) in 2 weeks. Then on the third week, I did UGL Deca (1ml). Had horrible pain with sore joints and aches. The weight gain was very similar to the pharm grade Deca.

Therefore, my conclusion is that the "virgin muscle" or "prop" theory are not a very good ones to explian PIP, since the first time I used pharm grade Deca (virgin muscle), I had no pain. It was actually the third time when I used UGL Deca that I experienced pain.

I also ruled out the possibility of an infection, because there was no redness or swelling.
I also ruled out the possibility of accidentally hitting a nerve while injecting, because the pain did not come on after at least 4-5 hours after the injection. If a nerve was pinned, it should hurt immediately.

The only possibility left I could think of that could be the cause for the PIP was that the UGL Deca might have had more BA and/or BB than the pharm grade Deca.

 

[SmilingBob]

So PIP can be caused by different types of pain/aches/soreness all lumped together under the term PIP. Deep tissue soreness probably from a large volume-related injection and/or virgin muscle syndrome, redness and swelling from an infection, or an acute pain most likely caused by direct contact with lots of alcohol.

The infection part can be avoided using sterile techniques by both the brewer and user.

The stinging pain can be avoided using appropriate amounts of BA/BB which will allow the solution to not crystallize within the depot and still not be too much to where the alcohol causes the pain.

And the general soreness is just a fact of life for new injection sites and/or those using large volumes.

I'm sure I'm missing another good point or two.

Well I'm slowly learning here. Thanks guys.

 

[Buttman3]

So PIP can be caused by different types of pain/aches/soreness all lumped together under the term PIP.

Bob, you summed up PIP nicely

.

Deep tissue soreness probably from a large volume-related injection and/or virgin muscle syndrome, redness and swelling from an infection, or an acute pain most likely caused by direct contact with lots of alcohol.

The easiest type of PIP to identify is the one we get from injecting a large volume. It's a dull pain, and we can see the injection site looks and feels like a little bump - like if we bumped our head against something hard, and we get a little swelling but without the redness. It's the mildest of all the PIP from my experience.

The stinging pain can be avoided using appropriate amounts of BA/BB which will allow the solution to not crystallize within the depot and still not be too much to where the alcohol causes the pain.

And the general soreness is just a fact of life for new injection sites and/or those using large volumes.

I'm sure I'm missing another good point or two.

Well I'm slowly learning here. Thanks guys.

The worst PIP I have ever had on two or three separate occasions were after using UGL gears, and every time, all of these symptoms occurred:

1. The pain started to come on after 4-5 hours, excruciating pain, and it lasted for up to several days
2. The injection area felt like it was burning or like there was a wound and salt was rubbed on it
3. Hip joint pain (if injected in the glutes)
4. Body aches, feeling of weakness, and flu-like symptoms

 

[Buttman3]

I have heard of what has been referred to as "test flu". However in all of the evidence I have found, I have yet to single out the culprit. IMO it is merely due to the body reacting to injury in the muscle and a foreign substance being introduced. The rest of the immune system may lower in order for the body to "fight" the oil you have injected and this is what leads to these fl-like symptoms.

DrHiney, I'm glad you mentioned this, because something similar to this happened to me a few days ago, and I was only able to confirm it last night!

Well, what happened was that on Monday, I pinned my glutes with 1ml of my new blend. About 5 hours later that night, I started to experience mild aches on my arms and mild flu-like symptoms. There was no noticeable PIP. The symptoms went away after about 6 hours later.

Then last night (two days later), I did the same pin on the other glutes. There were no flu symptoms or aches.

. Perhaps the body has adapted to the new substance?

Anyway, what you said about the possibility of the body "fighting" against the injected substance, the oil, which then cause the flu-like symptoms is a very good explanation.

 

[jamesl0822]

The culprit is very elusive and I was completely sold on phenol being the villain with my chinese test e. I have done some really simple tests to remove phenol and I know that I def did remove some from my test e but not sure if it was all. The drying process after the phenol "removal" was tedious and possibly opened the hormone up to being degraded or weakened (?). Long story short test e still gave PIP to those rats who were sensitive just the same as before. Other things I have tried EO, No EO, lower BB, Higher BB, didn't mess with BA 2%, and my clean room and methods are ridiculously overboard so there is almost no chance of contamination.

I'm thinking that there is a % of the population that is sensitive to higher concentrations causing crystallization of the hormone in the muscle somehow. 12 rats are not enough to prove it but I can tell you that all of my 12 sensitive rats experienced pip with test e at doses over 275mg/ml and test c at doses over 250mg/ml.

 

[DrHiney]

The culprit is very elusive and I was completely sold on phenol being the villain with my chinese test e. I have done some really simple tests to remove phenol and I know that I def did remove some from my test e but not sure if it was all. The drying process after the phenol "removal" was tedious and possibly opened the hormone up to being degraded or weakened (?). Long story short test e still gave PIP to those rats who were sensitive just the same as before. Other things I have tried EO, No EO, lower BB, Higher BB, didn't mess with BA 2%, and my clean room and methods are ridiculously overboard so there is almost no chance of contamination.

Yea, Ethyl Oleate seams to really only have an impact on injectable progesterone, but it's interesting that you tried it with testosterone.

 

[jamesl0822]

EO is pretty common in most recipes and is used to either thin the brew or help higher dosed gear hold. Just check Dtones recipes in the sticky at the top of the chemical study forum.
I personally have no use for it ...other than experimentation