I've used Thermorexin....works. By "works", I mean gets you hyped up, sweats, I believe it acted as an appetite suppressant too. Very similar to ECA IMO. FYI, I'd recommend a look into Albuterol for weight loss. I can't stand being all jacked up and spazzed out at work. I've read that Albuterol kicks ass for cutting. Only caveat is getting your hands on it (prescription substance). FYI only.