Ask Anything You Want about TRT Thread........

[cybrsage]

This is really a question out of curiosity.

How come people go TRT? I mean like, if some of these serms, like clomid, nolva, etc. are used to restart the HPTA, how come those on TRT don't try that? Sorry if this is a stupid question.

No question is stupid if asked honestly.

For those of us with primary hypogonadism, we basically do not create enough testosterone because our bodies have simply decided to stop making enough (for whatever reason). Think of it Primary Hypogonadism like Type 1 Diabetes and Secondary Hypogonadism as Type 2 Diabetes (not exactly correct, but close enough).

In Type 1 Diabetes, the body stops making insulin through no fault of the person and there is nothing that can be done to cure it - the person is left to inject insulin for the rest of their life just to be like everyone else. In Type 2 Diabetes, diet and body fat percentage are the usual causes of the body to become insulin resistant and, if not treated, can cause the body to eventually stop making insulin. Type 2 diabetes can be cured (or so I have read, if caught soon enough) but Type 1 cannot.


As an aside, I know some people feel shame or embarrassment about taking testosterone shots - they feel like less of a man. I do not look at it that way. Type 1 Diabetics have to take insulin shots to be like other humans and I look at my testosterone shots the same way. No shame, no embarrassment. Besides, getting legal anabolic steroids is not a bad thing.

 

[Hypnotix]

TRT aims to put men back in the normal range.

Standards consider hypogonadism to exist when Total Testoaterone is below 300ng/dl. Borderline Hypogonadism exists when Total Testosterone is below 350ng/dl and Free Testosterone is below normal.

Nice, and when you say it aims to achieve normalcy.. what is considered normal to most endocrinologists? I would imagine anything over that 300 would be "normal" but what would be "ideal"?

 

[Megatron28]

No question is stupid if asked honestly.

For those of us with primary hypogonadism, we basically do not create enough testosterone because our bodies have simply decided to stop making enough (for whatever reason). Think of it Primary Hypogonadism like Type 1 Diabetes and Secondary Hypogonadism as Type 2 Diabetes (not exactly correct, but close enough).

In Type 1 Diabetes, the body stops making insulin through no fault of the person and there is nothing that can be done to cure it - the person is left to inject insulin for the rest of their life just to be like everyone else. In Type 2 Diabetes, diet and body fat percentage are the usual causes of the body to become insulin resistant and, if not treated, can cause the body to eventually stop making insulin. Type 2 diabetes can be cured (or so I have read, if caught soon enough) but Type 1 cannot.


As an aside, I know some people feel shame or embarrassment about taking testosterone shots - they feel like less of a man. I do not look at it that way. Type 1 Diabetics have to take insulin shots to be like other humans and I look at my testosterone shots the same way. No shame, no embarrassment. Besides, getting legal anabolic steroids is not a bad thing.

This is not a good analogy. You seem to be implying that Secondary Hypogonadism is the fault of the person and can be simply remedied by eating better and shedding body fat. There are many causes of Secondary Hypogonadism -- many of which are beyond the control of the person and are not curable.

 

[Megatron28]

Nice, and when you say it aims to achieve normalcy.. what is considered normal to most endocrinologists? I would imagine anything over that 300 would be "normal" but what would be "ideal"?

Most labs provide a reference range of about 350-1200ng/dl. Some labs have the range shifted lower.

Ideal is up for interpretation and is individual dependent. I would argue that it likely falls within three standard deviations of the mean. The chart below may be informative for you.

View attachment 559959

 

[Alpin]

Most labs provide a reference range of about 350-1200ng/dl. Some labs have the range shifted lower.

Ideal is up for interpretation and is individual dependent. I would argue that it likely falls within three standard deviations of the mean. The chart below may be informative for you.

View attachment 559959

Ah, the famous old graph of T levels increasing up to the age of 40...

I'm curious to know (on a separate note) anyone on here experience their natural Testosterone rise after their 20's??
with a graph like that why would anyone need TRT at 40?
Their levels at 18 y.o. were the lowest.....wait till they grow.

 

[Hypnotix]

Most labs provide a reference range of about 350-1200ng/dl. Some labs have the range shifted lower.

Ideal is up for interpretation and is individual dependent. I would argue that it likely falls within three standard deviations of the mean. The chart below may be informative for you.

View attachment 559959

That chart is rather informative, but is this based on individuals who are on TRT or just regular people? Doesn't say. If this chart is of normal people, you're saying the average T levels in a 30-40 year old man are over 1000 ng/dl!!??

 

[Megatron28]

That chart is rather informative, but is this based on individuals who are on TRT or just regular people? Doesn't say. If this chart is of normal people, you're saying the average T levels in a 30-40 year old man are over 1000 ng/dl!!??

Regular Natty men. The line through the middle is the average. The top and bottom lines are the upper and lower limits of the range.

 

[Hypnotix]

Regular Natty men. The line through the middle is the average. The top and bottom lines are the upper and lower limits of the range.

Yeah, this makes much more sense now! I was like jesus christ 1000 as the average.. I'm screwed lol

 

[Alpin]

Yeah, this makes much more sense now! I was like jesus christ 1000 as the average.. I'm screwed lol

It still shows T levels being higher between 40-50 years of age as opposed to 20 yr old.
Can't see it being accurate. There might very well be an increase in TT because with advancing age SHBG, Estradiol goes up and that means less Free T and Bio Avail.T
You can see the Free T drop quite significantly from 20 y.o. and 40-50 y.o. it is pretty low.
TT is not reflective of true androgen deficiency, hypogonadism. Too many factors like Estradiol and SHBG that could lower the actual Testosterone that works.

 

[Megatron28]

It still shows T levels being higher between 40-50 years of age as opposed to 20 yr old.
Can't see it being accurate. There might very well be an increase in TT because with advancing age SHBG, Estradiol goes up and that means less Free T and Bio Avail.T
You can see the Free T drop quite significantly from 20 y.o. and 40-50 y.o. it is pretty low.
TT is not reflective of true androgen deficiency, hypogonadism. Too many factors like Estradiol and SHBG that could lower the actual Testosterone that works.

Apollon: Can you please post a chart from a medical journal or text book or study showing what you believe it should be? I would be very interested in finding a chart that is more accurate. The other thing you should keep in mind that the changes in TT shown in the chart between ages ~25-40 are pretty minimal from a statistical standpoint.

As far as TT as a measure, Halfwit, you and I have had this conversation several times already. For most people, TT is a perfectly good measure. Only in certain cases that are more complicated does it become necessary to delve into Free T and Bioavailable T.

 

[cybrsage]

This is not a good analogy. You seem to be implying that Secondary Hypogonadism is the fault of the person and can be simply remedied by eating better and shedding body fat. There are many causes of Secondary Hypogonadism -- many of which are beyond the control of the person and are not curable.

If I seemed to imply that, I apologize, it was certainly not my intent. I should have said "most people who get" wrt Type 2 diabetes. You are correct, it sometimes happens through no fault of the person and in those cases it not curable. Those are the ones that suck the most.

 

[cybrsage]

I don't know much about the chart, its history, etc. I usually try to go by what the Mayo Clinic says on things. They say:
TTFB - Clinical: Testosterone, Total, Bioavailable, and Free, Serum

TESTOSTERONE, TOTAL
Males
0-5 months: 75-400 ng/dL
6 months-9 years: <7-20 ng/dL
10-11 years: <7-130 ng/dL
12-13 years: <7-800 ng/dL
14 years: <7-1,200 ng/dL
15-16 years: 100-1,200 ng/dL
17-18 years: 300-1,200 ng/dL
> or =19 years: 240-950 ng/dL

TESTOSTERONE, BIOAVAILABLE
Males
< or =19 years: not established
20-29 years: 83-257 ng/dL
30-39 years: 72-235 ng/dL
40-49 years: 61-213 ng/dL
50-59 years: 50-190 ng/dL
60-69 years: 40-168 ng/dL
> or =70 years: not established

 

[Megatron28]

I don't know much about the chart, its history, etc. I usually try to go by what the Mayo Clinic says on things. They say:
TTFB - Clinical: Testosterone, Total, Bioavailable, and Free, Serum

TESTOSTERONE, TOTAL
Males
0-5 months: 75-400 ng/dL
6 months-9 years: <7-20 ng/dL
10-11 years: <7-130 ng/dL
12-13 years: <7-800 ng/dL
14 years: <7-1,200 ng/dL
15-16 years: 100-1,200 ng/dL
17-18 years: 300-1,200 ng/dL
> or =19 years: 240-950 ng/dL

TESTOSTERONE, BIOAVAILABLE
Males
< or =19 years: not established
20-29 years: 83-257 ng/dL
30-39 years: 72-235 ng/dL
40-49 years: 61-213 ng/dL
50-59 years: 50-190 ng/dL
60-69 years: 40-168 ng/dL
> or =70 years: not established

don't think Apollon is questioning the upper and lower limits of the chart I posted. It is the averages.

 

[dice101]

Im prescribed test prop 75 mg a week.. also .3mg of anadtrozole and hcg .5 out of a 11,000 bottle days 2 nd 6..and still no libido.. what can help me out..

 

[Megatron28]

Im prescribed test prop 75 mg a week.. also .3mg of anadtrozole and hcg .5 out of a 11,000 bottle days 2 nd 6..and still no libido.. what can help me out..

What is your TRT protocol on those medications? How long have you been on that protocol? And do you have blood work?

 

[dice101]

What is your TRT protocol on those medications? How long have you been on that protocol? And do you have blood work?

I just made a schedule for a blood work this week..

Test m, w, f
Ai: mwf
Hcg days 2 nd 6
Been on for almost 2 months. .I did it because I got bad sides after a tren e test cycle.. and ed and libido became issues.. .. nothing has changed my libido is not here ed as well.. there are times I take the shot and feel libido is through the rood then there arr days after the shot.. I cant even get up.. sit there and try ..try and try and nothing..not even semi at the moment if I tried.. its very frustrating

 

[dice101]

As of last night..I was like maybe my estro is high.. adex and woke up with a wood.. I havent seen that in months. . Took my test shot and ai today thinking if I take test shot my estro will go back up and nothing..today is worst than usual

 

[dice101]

??

 

[Alpin]

Apollon: Can you please post a chart from a medical journal or text book or study showing what you believe it should be? I would be very interested in finding a chart that is more accurate. The other thing you should keep in mind that the changes in TT shown in the chart between ages ~25-40 are pretty minimal from a statistical standpoint.

As far as TT as a measure, Halfwit, you and I have had this conversation several times already. For most people, TT is a perfectly good measure. Only in certain cases that are more complicated does it become necessary to delve into Free T and Bioavailable T.

Post a chart???
I'm interpreting the ones you posted.
do they not show an increase in TT at 40 years of age ??
Slightly higher than it shows them at 20 years of age and below??
Does the chart next to the TT (showing Free T averages) not show a decline in Free T as age progreses?
After reviewing both charts/graphs is it not safe to make the connection between the two?
It's really a mystery that SHBG, Estradiol rise with age and there is a resulting decrease in Free T?

 

[cybrsage]

don't think Apollon is questioning the upper and lower limits of the chart I posted. It is the averages.

Heh...I guess I was being very prophetic then when I said I did not know much...