F*ckin with Andromass - An unbiased mini log + review

[HereToStudy]

With that said, he may just need some more time for this to work for him. I hope AM turns out to be the next best thing as it would be a huge benefit for all of us. I really hope this doesn't turn into a hate thread if it doesn't work for you Glub.

This certainly won't turn into a hate thread, we appreciate feedback. From experience, I am enjoying AM, and am taking a significantly lower dose, however, I am also 160lbs lighter than Glub, so my results are going to be significantly different then his.

Keep going glub, and don't stop the log. I honestly don't think BBG meant any harm with his question, it appeared to me he was trying to understand your reasoning. I too become interested in things of that nature, and ask similar questions. It is not a call out, IMO.

Looking forward to how this product treats you moving forward.

 

[glubgawd]

thanks guys. I appreciate the support.

Give it some more time please

Also for the blood work it will not show an increase in test, this isn't how AM works it is the total activity of all androgens. Maybe if your team can do a bio-assay?

thanks for the info ryan. I can ask about a bio-assay. Do I need to ask for a specific value/test with that? Or just say "bio-assay" and they'll know what that means?

Also, if AM doesn't increase my test levels - do you think it's strong enough to offset my low test values coming off a cycle? Having low test is probably pretty tough to compete with.

 

[Sleazy E]

Give it some more time please

Also for the blood work it will not show an increase in test, this isn't how AM works it is the total activity of all androgens. Maybe if your team can do a bio-assay?

Im curios to know how a claim of it equaling 300+ mg test can be made then?

Im just trying to understand this...

Is there any studies you guys could post?

lets say it is the equivalent of total androgens in the body... how can he be losing strength then when there is that much? we are talking the equivalant in androgens of around 700mg test at his dosing.

but what do i know.
Im just kinda puzzled here.
maybe more time is indeed needed...

 

[glubgawd]

This certainly won't turn into a hate thread, we appreciate feedback. From experience, I am enjoying AM, and am taking a significantly lower dose, however, I am also 160lbs lighter than Glub, so my results are going to be significantly different then his.

Keep going glub, and don't stop the log. I honestly don't think BBG meant any harm with his question, it appeared to me he was trying to understand your reasoning. I too become interested in things of that nature, and ask similar questions. It is not a call out, IMO.

Looking forward to how this product treats you moving forward.

thanks man.

Yeah I didn't realize it was BBG until you just mentioned it to be honest. I thought it was futurefreak posting again so it was back to back inquisitions (by what I thought was the same user) that kinda got me on edge.

also just noticed futurefreak isn't a PP rep....

 

[ryansm]

thanks guys. I appreciate the support.





thanks for the info ryan. I can ask about a bio-assay. Do I need to ask for a specific value/test with that? Or just say "bio-assay" and they'll know what that means?

Also, if AM doesn't increase my test levels - do you think it's strong enough to offset my low test values coming off a cycle? Having low test is probably pretty tough to compete with.

replied back

Im curios to know how a claim of it equaling 300+ mg test can be made then?

Im just trying to understand this...

Is there any studies you guys could post?

lets say it is the equivalent of total androgens in the body... how can he be losing strength then when there is that much? we are talking the equivalant in androgens of around 700mg test at his dosing.

but what do i know.
Im just kinda puzzled here.
maybe more time is indeed needed...

Let me get Eric in here to explain it fully

 

[Primordial Performance]

Yup. Day 12. And no, not consistently. 2007 was when I had a back injury .



I did a 350mg/w cruise followed by a 16 week test/deca/tren cycle (@500/500/300, dropped tren after 14 weeks). Then cruised again until I started Andromass.

I'm not taking anything else other than AM right now. I stopped taking vitamins even cuz I was worried about how strong the cytochrome P450 inhibition might be at the doses I'm taking.

Like I said, I'll post up some comments about blood work later today when the doc calls me. I'm willing to bet my test levels are still tanked based on the way I feel though.

Thanks for the info. How long where you doing the cruise before starting AndroMass?

Those esters take awhile to clear, not to mention the androgens stay located in the cell nucleus for weeks after steroids have cleared the blood -- transcribing effects upon the AR. The effects from the heavy cycle you ran before may just now be declining.

The anabolic equiv to testosterone of the previous cycle you ran is as follows -

500mg T = 500mg T
500mg Nandrolone = 1200mg T
300mg Tren = 900mg T

In total thats 2600mg anabolic equivalent to testosterone (vida values - androgenic value would be much different)

I think a logical explanation here is a that you are experiencing a drop in anabolic activity from your previous run, possibly feeling run down from GI issues from excessive grapefruit, and maybe effects from something else we dont know about. Who knows.

As far as the blood tests, its an "androgen bioassay" and Bioqual is the only lab doing this test in the US that I know of right now. Its about $8000 to get this done. It just tests for the activity of all androgens in the blood. AndroMass has a negligible impact on T levels. Its action is coming from Adiol and Adione. They are doing this test in athletes now for undetectable anabolic hormones, because a bioassay will pick them up when GC-MS or RIA will miss them.

Its nearly impossible to jump from cycle-to-cycle and make any sense of whats working. If we are testing subjects we make sure they have been clean for atleast 6 months. What may have been more appropriate for you is to continue the 350mg/week test since you know how that behaves in your body and then add in the AndroMass at a more reasonable dose to observe its additive effects.

-Eric

 

[ryansm]

Im curios to know how a claim of it equaling 300+ mg test can be made then?
It's the combination of all steroid activity

-1-Androstenediol
-1-Androstenedione
-Androstendiol
-Androstenedione
-1-Testosterone
-Testosterone

http://www.primordialperformance.com/images/androroller/rotate_mass_3.gif

http://www.primordialperformance.com/images/androroller/rotate_mass_1.gif

http://www.primordialperformance.com/images/androroller/rotate_mass_2.gif

We are just claiming the equivalent on pure "anabolic" and "androgenic" activity level here. There will obviously be a little bit of difference in aromatization, cognitive feeling, sodium retention, etc... but the overall muscle gains should be expected to be very comparable to 420mg/week of injectable testosterone enanthate.

remember protein synthesis is protein synthesis just as nitrogen retention is nitrogen retention. it doesnt matter what hormone is causing it. This is just the overall anabolic effect that we are making claims about. -Eric

Im just trying to understand this...

Is there any studies you guys could post?

If you go here and click on the reference tab

Answers above

 

[Weez]

Daamn you're really a pro athlete? Thats cool as shit. Im going to buy this shit.

 

[Not Ted]

Daamn you're really a pro athlete? Thats cool as shit. Im going to buy this shit.

Yeah man,..andromass is awesome 50 lbs of muslce in 5 weeks boo yah

 

[UserAt204]

I wonder if that may actually be a good idea Glub to get back on your cruise dose to maintain and then see what the AM added might do for you simply so you won't be on a crash, but I also thought the overall androgenic appeal of this would simply take over for what you stopped using. The only part im not understanding is the cycle to cycle part, only because a blast and cruise has it's benefits for people at a level where needed.

I'm just thinking out loud here not really looking for a response.

 

[cheppallet]

the idea of logging these items alone is supposed to show what the product can do by itself. Adding AAS will give skewed results and NO ONE would be able to tell when things are happening based on the individual item. Thats why the Dbol log with AM seems useless to me.

Its unfortunate with this log as it seems like every answer this ball player gives is answered by more of an excuse than actually considering it may not be a worthwhile product. But of course that wouldn't be very good for making money. Which again is the priority here for PP.

Its a shame because it only seems the smaller guys are seeing any 'supposed' benefit from this stuff, which is probably not even the case as most small guys don't know how to eat or train correctly.

Good luck Glubgawd, hopefully this doesn't hinder your performance for too long.

 

[ryansm]

the idea of logging these items alone is supposed to show what the product can do by itself. Adding AAS will give skewed results and NO ONE would be able to tell when things are happening based on the individual item. Thats why the Dbol log with AM seems useless to me.

Its unfortunate with this log as it seems like every answer this ball player gives is answered by more of an excuse than actually considering it may not be a worthwhile product. But of course that wouldn't be very good for making money. Which again is the priority here for PP.

Its a shame because it only seems the smaller guys are seeing any 'supposed' benefit from this stuff, which is probably not even the case as most small guys don't know how to eat or train correctly.

Good luck Glubgawd, hopefully this doesn't hinder your performance for too long.

The dbol will be dropped soon and he will be running AM solo for 4 weeks

No excuses here, we offered up for anyone to run a log and welcome any and all feedback.

If you can't eat or train correctly I don't care what AAS you use or who you are you will not have a productive cycle, so that comment isn't accurate.

 

[THE-DET-OAK]

i'm confused on the conversion to diols, it says on your site it only converts to diols 7.2%, which honestly, this conversion, would be the only thing of importance to me. seems to me the conversion to diones is much more apparent.

Im also surprised that there is so much suggestion to run androgenic compounds, with something that is said to dramatically inhibit cyp enzyme, the enzyme responsible for clearing these androgens, and the other by products of these androgenic/anabolic compounds.

Im wondering if the other AM log, with dbol, has had any issues with E and what his liver values are, from running something hepatoxic, with something that inhibits this enzyme. Im assuming this inhibition is actually what is causing the lethargy for Glub, maybe its causing his liver to work overtime, to clear the androgens, that you said would still be around. Im very curious to see what Glub's transaminase levels are.

 

[UserAt204]

With the inhibition of the cyp enzyme, would this have any effect on anything else being used such as multi vitamins? This is kind of scary if you think about what that is doing.

 

[glubgawd]

those are some great questions Det. I'll be very interested in hearing the response.

Did you want ALT or AST Det?

 

[THE-DET-OAK]

Did you want ALT or AST Det?

both, i want to know if they are elevated, and how much and what previous levels were if you happen to have those records. any elevation is a sign of liver damage, the higher the level, the more damage. if there has been elevation during the time you have been on this supplement, it will be obvious it is the cause.

However, very high elevations of the transaminases suggests severe liver damage, such as viral hepatitis, liver injury from lack of blood flow, or injury from drugs or toxins.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elevated_transaminases

and here you will see that fatigue is a sign of elevation.

http://www.labtestsonline.org/understanding/analytes/alt/test.html

 

[glubgawd]

AST: 58 (started at 31)
ALT: 64 (started at 49)

They were elevated last week too although not as high....

Other values as promised:

Test: non-existent (as expected)
Estradiol: 82 (it's usually around 60ish)
BP: 140/85 (started @ 110/75)

Cholesterol was elevated last week as well although it doesn't look like they tested that this week. I'll call and double check tomorrow (sometimes they just don't print it all out for us).

 

[Primordial Performance]

i'm confused on the conversion to diols, it says on your site it only converts to diols 7.2%, which honestly, this conversion, would be the only thing of importance to me. seems to me the conversion to diones is much more apparent.

Im also surprised that there is so much suggestion to run androgenic compounds, with something that is said to dramatically inhibit cyp enzyme, the enzyme responsible for clearing these androgens, and the other by products of these androgenic/anabolic compounds.

Im wondering if the other AM log, with dbol, has had any issues with E and what his liver values are, from running something hepatoxic, with something that inhibits this enzyme. Im assuming this inhibition is actually what is causing the lethargy for Glub, maybe its causing his liver to work overtime, to clear the androgens, that you said would still be around. Im very curious to see what Glub's transaminase levels are.

The conversion to Adiols is more significant that the image represents on our site. The current calculation is based off what will happen once the steroids reach the blood. However there is significant 17b-hsd reduction in the intestines which will lead to heavy Adiol conversion -- which is good as Adiol is a more potent androgen than Adione.

Not sure what your asking about the cyp inhibition. CYP3A is the only enzyme the grapefruit is significantly inhibiting (mostly isolated in the intestines), which isnt a major pathway for endogenous androgen clearance.

Taking the grapefruit with a 17-methyl will enhance absorption 40-60% so if glubgawd is using a 17-methyl the grapefruit will enhance absorption and possibly toxicity.

-Eric

 

[Primordial Performance]

AST: 58 (started at 31)
ALT: 64 (started at 49)

They were elevated last week too although not as high....

Other values as promised:

Test: non-existent (as expected)
Estradiol: 82 (it's usually around 60ish)
BP: 140/85 (started @ 110/75)

Cholesterol was elevated last week as well although it doesn't look like they tested that this week. I'll call and double check tomorrow (sometimes they just don't print it all out for us).

How often are you running these tests?

Would you mind emailing me the last few series of tests, along with what you where using at the time?

eric @ primordialperformance.com

-Eric

 

[hatefulONE]

Coming from someone who had a minor stint playing ball, practice squad haha, and also someone who was planning on running andromass, this is what I think. As mentioned above claimed equivalences are just that, equivalences in anabolic activity, not claiming actual test levels will be raised. I'd run the rest of the andromass but get back on your typical hormone regime, once the AM is done I'd check levels. At your size and hormone use history I'd say that 15 caps, hell even 20-25 caps a day wouldn't cut it. You will need the real stuff, andromass might be ok to add to it, but not a substitute. That rise in liver enzymes isn't that bad. I work in the medical field and while any rise in ast/alt isn't good, levels will rise even more than that upon initiation of statin therapy. The strength number decreases are really what scares me, I typically lift for strength and will soon be competing in powerlifting. Looks like a loss in lean mass and strength for you. I'm hoping that it is just from the switch from real gear to the andromass that caused the let down. Either way good luck and I'll be following the rest of this log closely.