Insulin shot and timing with GH?

jyzza said:
SG..do you also take am injections?

nope..

when i first tried gh 2 yrs ago i was doing afternoon injections.. blahhhhh

then i switched over to bedtime and have been sold ever since...

but thinking about timing.. if i were to do an am shot say at 9am... it kicks in at 3pm and then will be active until 9pm give or take... then i guess i could reasonably also get my natural surge that way as well...

Something i can try for you guys to see how i feel as an experiment :)

so in conclusion i would guess the best shots either are AM or bedtime... but not during the day...
 
So why 90% of people here say to do 2ius a.m. and 2ius p.m.

Why not just take 4ius p.m.???
 
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After spending way too much time over the last couple days looking at dozens of abstracts, I'll make a couple observations.

For some odd reason, most of the research on this topic is old stuff. 1977, 1986.......wow. Some of these must use pit-derived GH.
Most of the research involves too few subjects, too short a duration, and dosing that is inconsistent with the way athletes and bodybuilders use GH. Our senior moderator points this out in his very objective manner.

I don't see the citation for those charts, hhajdo, but I believe that this would be Hashimoto et. al., the japanese study. It is pretty much on point, alright. It does have the limitations you already pointed out.

As Swales says, modern Hormone Replacement Therapy (HRT) theory is for daytime shots:

Forms of Human Growth Hormone (HGH)
By David Leonardi, M. D.

INTRODUCTION

Growth Hormone is a polypeptide hormone. This means it is composed of a long chain of amino acids, 191 to be exact. Under normal physiologic conditions, growth hormone is secreted by the anterior pituitary gland. This is a gland that lies at the base of the brain in a bony cavity called the Sella Turcica. In addition to growth hormone, the anterior pituitary also secretes prolactin, thyroid stimulating hormone, luteinizing hormone, follicle stimulating hormone, and adrenal corticotropic hormone. The secretion of growth hormone by the pituitary gland is initiated by the hypothalamus, another gland in the brain that lies right next to the pituitary. The hypothalamus initiates growth hormone secretion by secreting growth hormone releasing hormone (GHRH); at the same time it stops secreting a growth hormone inhibitory hormone called somatostatin. When somatostatin is turned off and GHRH is turned on, the pituitary will release growth hormone in bursts of activity. These bursts of growth hormone release occur primarily during deep stages of sleep, such as stage 3 and stage 4. Once released in the blood, growth hormone is very short lived. It is generally completely metabolized and gone within a half-hour. During that time, however, it manages to reach the liver and many other cells in the body, and induce them to make another polypeptide hormone called Insulin-like Growth Factor One (IGF-1). It is really IGF-1 that travels around to the various tissues of the body to effect most of the benefits that we attribute to growth hormone. The secretion of growth hormone itself is regulated by a classic biofeedback loop. This means when levels of growth hormone in the blood reach a certain threshold, growth hormone stimulates receptors in the pituitary to stop further growth hormone secretion. It also stimulates receptors in the hypothalamus to stop GHRH and turn on somatostatin. IGF-1, which goes up in response to growth hormone, also feeds back on the pituitary and hypothalamus to help control growth hormone secretion. This is nature's system of checks and balances to assure we don't have too much of any one hormone.

NOMENCLATURE

The nomenclature for growth hormone is a bit complicated, but understanding it from the beginning can save much confusion in the future. Somatropin refers to growth hormone of the same amino acid sequence as the naturally occurring growth hormone. Somatropin extracted from the human pituitary gland was originally designated (hGH, or pit-hGH). Manufactured growth hormone is made by recombinant DNA technology. This is a system of genetically modifying either bacteria cells or mammalian cells in tissue culture so that they include in their genome, the gene that directs the cell to make human growth hormone. As the cells in the tissue culture grow and function, they will synthesize human growth hormone by the exact same process in the human pituitary. Since this is a natural process, human growth hormone is not considered a synthetic. The proper abbreviation for manufactured (recombinant) human growth hormone is rGH. Unfortunately, the abbreviations have been misused even in the medical community, and recombinant human growth hormone is commonly represented by the abbreviation hGH. The designation is no longer critical since human growth hormone of pituitary origin is no longer used in the United States, or anywhere in the world that I'm aware of. The term hGH or GH therefore, refers to human growth hormone from recombinant DNA technology. It is pure and 100% free of any contaminants or micro-organisms.

HISTORY

Prior to the advent of recombinant DNA technology, the only source of growth hormone was from human cadavers. More than 27,000 children worldwide were treated with growth hormone of this source (pit-hGH). Due to short supply, children were treated with low doses and interrupted regimens. As a result, their response and ultimate height was mitigated. Distribution of pit-hGH was stopped in the United States and most of Europe in 1985, with the emergence of Creutzfeldt-Jakob Disease. This is a rare and fatal spongiform encephalopathy, caused by a small pathogen called a prion. This is the same pathogen that causes "Mad Cow Disease" recently seen in Europe from infected cattle. It is impossible to catch Creutzfeldt-Jakob Disease or any other infection from recombinant human growth hormone because it is not derived from a human or animal source, but from a purified tissue culture. For purposes of this discussion, the term growth hormone, GH or hGH will mean growth hormone made by recombinant DNA technology.

The bio-potency of commercially available growth hormone is typically represented by either milligrams or units. To put it simply, 1 milligram of growth hormone is equivalent to 3 units. The international units were developed by the World Health Organization in order to standardize growth hormone preparations because of the various production techniques used early on in the manufacturing process. By now, the manufacturing process has been streamlined and largely perfected so the bio-equivalency of the various brands of growth hormone (at least those manufactured and approved by the FDA for sale in the United States) are identical. Therefore, a typical 15-unit vial of growth hormone contains 5 mg, and a 4-unit vial contains 1.33 mg.

USES OF GROWTH HORMONE

Growth hormone was initially used for children of short stature who are growth hormone deficient, either because of an inactive pituitary, a tumor of the pituitary, or destruction of the pituitary by surgery or by radiation to remove a tumor. The other pituitary hormones were replaced along with GH. Growth hormone was used only until the children reached an acceptable adult height and then it was stopped because it was thought to be useful only for growth. The other pituitary hormones, however, which were thought to be more critical, were continued throughout adulthood. It wasn't until much later that adult growth hormone deficiency was recognized to be a problem. It was discovered that adults who were deficient in growth hormone suffered from premature cardiovascular disease, reduced bone density, central obesity, decreased muscle mass, depressed mood, elevated levels of LDL (bad) cholesterol, slower wound healing, fatigue, poor exercise tolerance and poor immune function. At that point the use of growth hormone began in this unfortunate population, resulting in improvement of all of the above. It wasn't until 1990, however, that the benefits of growth hormone and the treatment of normal aging were recognized. The most recent new use of growth hormone is for the treatment of AIDS Wasting Syndrome. This is the condition of weakness, fatigue, and loss of muscle mass in AIDS patients. Since we at Cenegenics® specialize in metabolic and hormonal control of aging, we will limit this discussion to the use of growth hormone in the treatment of normal aging.

SOMATOPAUSE

Somatopause is an extrapolation of the term "menopause." Menopause is the condition in women whereby the ovaries atrophy and cease to produce the sex hormones Estrogen, Progesterone and Testosterone. Somatopause signifies the gradual decline in growth hormone production by the adult pituitary gland in both men and women that begins at approximately age 30 and continues at a steady rate throughout life. The decline in growth hormone level that occurs with Somatopause is accompanied by deterioration in the structure and functional capacity of our body, which is ultimately devastating to the human condition. In fact, there is absolutely no difference between the clinical signs and symptoms of aging and those of adult growth hormone deficiency described above. The late Dr. Daniel Rudman first described the benefits of growth hormone therapy in normal aging adults. Dr. Rudman published a landmark article in the New England Journal of Medicine on July 7th, 1990. In his article, Dr. Rudman showed that by putting healthy aging men on growth hormone for six months, he was able to decrease their body fat by 14.4%, increase muscle mass by 8.8%, increase skin thickness by 7.1%, and increase lumbar bone density by 1.6%. These exciting findings clearly inaugurated the movement to supplement growth hormone in healthy aging adults, which today is becoming commonplace.

TREATMENT REGIMENS

Growth hormone can be given either subcutaneously or by intra-muscular injection with equal therapeutic activity. Subcutaneous administration is now used almost exclusively because intra-muscular administration is fraught with an increase in side effects without any additional therapeutic benefit. Back in Dr. Rudman's time, growth hormone was typically dosed three times a week in what we now consider a high dose regimen. People would typically receive 12-18 units per week given in injections of 4-6 units, three times a week. Although great benefits were seen, side effects were very common, and much more bothersome than those we see today. Currently we use only about half the weekly dose used in Dr. Rudman's study, by smaller and more frequent injections, which provide both a better clinical response and far fewer side-effects. In one study on growth hormone deficient children, those that received daily injections increased their height during the study period by 9.7 centimeters more than those who received thrice-weekly injections. Besides the low dose-high frequency technique, the physicians at Cenegenics® also employ morning injections as opposed to evening. The reason for this has to do with the biofeedback mechanism for growth hormone. Most of our natural pituitary growth hormone secretion occurs at night during deep stages of sleep. Injecting growth hormone at night raises the serum level of growth hormone precisely during the time the pituitary is scheduled to become active. This high serum level of growth hormone from the injection can suppress our natural pituitary function by negative feedback. We then not only lose the benefit of our own endogenous growth hormone, but also run the risk of surpressing the pituitary, thus making it "lazy". For the most part, the pituitary has completed its function and is at rest by 5 a.m. Therefore injecting after awakening in the morning results in injecting "on top of the peak" of endogenous (our own) growth hormone, so as not to suppress the pituitary. By the time the pituitary is ready again for its nighttime activity, the growth hormone given in the morning injection has been completely metabolized. This eliminates the risk of pituitary suppression.

Note the last paragraph. Hormone Replacement Therapy (HRT) is much closer to the way we use GH here.

Finally, as a matter of practicality, many of use who use insulin in conjunction with rGH simply can NOT employ bedtime injections. We can't risk going hypo in our sleep! So light doses, in AM or afternoon troughs in natural secretion are the way to go for us.

This approach has worked well for me for many years. Of course my age is a factor. There is research that shows older men to be less susceptible to suppression of several types while using exoGH.

Finally, who would you guys rather look like anyway, SG or me.....lol.
J/k supergirl, that's for suckering me into this thread so hhdajo could beat me up!
 
I am glad to see the refernce to Cenegenics in your post. Cenegenics is probably the most prestigious Hormone Replacement Therapy (HRT) Clinic for men in the USA (although they are MUCH more expensive than I am). They are sincerely dedicated to spreading the faith about Hormone Replacement Therapy (HRT) for men, and have spent a lot of money and time doing so. I interact with them on a regular basis. I had a very interesting discussion with Dr. Anton Dotson (their Chief Clinician) just the other night, and he gave me a couple of pointers from his own clinical experience that my patients are already benefitting from. I disagree with him on several topics, though (i.e. use of HCG), but this is because he has not spent years working with steroid athletes as I have, and--more importantly--has not spent any time on Steroidology--REALLY learning how things work. BTW, he'd get a real kick out of it if he heard me say that.
 
Finally, who would you guys rather look like anyway, SG or me.....lol.

hahaha.. very funny ya big jerk :)

thank you for that extensive abstract.. it helped to define alot and i can definitely see your point about those that use slin and gh should avoid bedtime shots due to the possibility of hypo during sleep...

HOWEVER.. i kinda still stand with the concept that there is a 3-4hr delay in the onset of exogenous gh so therefore bedtime shots can and will work... ie: shot.. bed... natural.. then exog... This may be better suited for someone like me wanted theraputic affects from gh such as injury and muscle recovery as well as fat loss..
I also think the am shot would be cool... I have thought about 1iu at bedtime and 1iu at waking.. like the abstract says, to hit it while it is peaking and almost to ride the wave...

but i will never stop my bedtime shots all together as i have witnessed such a difference when i started doing it this way oh about 2 yrs ago :)

This debate will probably never be concluded LOL... but i guess to surmise...

gh + slin = AM shots and afternoon shots
gh alone = bedtime shots OR
gh alone = AM shots OR BOTH....

so we have choices and i believe it is very individual and trial and error.. possibly like with aas, what works for one, may not work for another...

THANKS TO ALL WHO HAVE SPENT QUALITY TIME AND CONTRIBUTIONS TO THIS POST!!! This subject is one of constant controversy and debate and i really appreciate all that have participated in trying to figure it all out and get the most out of our gh!!!
 
Supergirl--I know you tried afternoon dosing ("BLAHHHH"). Have you also experimented with AM injections?

It is curious to me when people say the nightime shots help them sleep, with the purported delay and all. They don't say: "It helps me sleep great after a few hours".
 
I'm curious about all this talk about insulin and GH. True enough, GH reduces insulin sensitivity. That is why I get my guys squared away on testosterone FIRST, which dramaticaly improves insulin sensitivity by virtue of its positive effects on Facilitative Transport. FT is driven by both testosterone and ATP (which is also increased by testosterone). THEN I add in the GH.

Is there sometnhing else going on with BB'er dosages? I mean, if you are taking a gram a week of test, that should be overcoming the insulin insensitivity produced by the GH. Questions/comments/smart-remarks?
 
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SWALE said:
I'm curious about all this talk about insulin and GH. True enough, GH reduces insulin sensitivity. That is why I get my guys squared away on testosterone FIRST, which dramaticaly improves insulin sensitivity by virtue of its postive effects on Facilitative Transport. FT is driven by both testosterone and ATP (which is also increased by testosterone). THEN I add in the GH.

Is there sometnhing else going on with BB'er dosages? I mean, if you are taking a gram a week of test, that should be overcoming the insulin insensitivity produced by the GH. Questions/comments/smart-remarks?

i am not sure swale... I have always known that frontloading test is almost necessary rather than running gh alone or prior to an aas.. i thought it was due to the almost counterbalance of insulin sensitivity.. but i am not exactly sure why... i just know it works lol...
I always in the past have made reccomendations to frontload prior to gh therapy :)

oh and an answer to your prior question.. i have not started the am shots yet or in the past... I may try 1 am and 1bedtime to see...
 
I'm afraid many of the current recomendations regarding how to use GH (at Hormone Replacement Therapy (HRT) and at BB'ing dosages) are extrapolated from actions in normal physiological (unsupplemented) systems. This is not the same thing at all.

Please keep me posted on your results comparing your PM with any AM dosing you try. It's all good.
 
You are right as rain there, swales and SG. Test does improve insulin senitivity. No one can answer the question of "is it enough to counterbalence GH" cause these damn researchers don't study the shit we want to know. I regularly use insulin with or without GH because I like the results, and I double up with GH to make sure I'm getting the best results possible.
It gets even more complicated. The body has a triple feedback defense mechanism, as you know, swales. ExoGH negatively impacts insulin and causes some natural IGF to be "bound" and not bioavailable. At the same time, IGF-1 causes a negative effect on natural GH release. These defenses are aimed at protecting us from some unpleasant diseases like acromeglia and diabetes.
It's the bodybuilder's dilemma as to how to overcome these defenses through polypharmacy. It appears that the most effective combination is GH/insulin/test/anavar. (Nandi has some research that shows that anavar stimulates the release of unbound IGF-1)
 
this is the best info I have read, but I agree with SG. The nighttime shots make me feel fuller and thicker when i wake up in the morning.Again thanks for the info everyone on this post.
 
Supergirl, if I'm taking 2iu's AM and 2iu's bedtime, can I take my 10iu p/w slin shot in the AM. You said you shouldn't take gh at bedtime while using slin, but if I use slin in the AM, I don't see why I shouldn't be able to. Can you clear this up for me. Thanks.
 
Hey Ripped..
slin should be administered in the am or post workout.. It is also highly suggested that you eat within 30mins of your shot...

NO slin at bedtime as it can cause you to go hypo.. problems you do not want..

hope that cleared it up for you :)

super
 
Please let me add just a little to that, you so you are completley sure of what she means. Taking insulin before going to bed may kill you. While asleep, if you become hypoglycemic from the insulin, you will not know it. An insulin-induced coma may result. I've seen enough of them to have the very thought of them scare the crap out of me.

Please don't become another statistic for the anti-bodybuilding zealots who can't wait to say "I told you so!"
 
I know how to use slin, I just wasn't clear on what she meant when using gh + slin. I will be using slin with my gh, but only post workout, and will be taking a 2nd gh shot at bedtime.
 
R2S--that was for other people who aren't as up on it as you are. Sort of "Another Public Service Announcement from SWALE".
 
ok, im not taking slin now,but i might... someday

what if you become hypoglycemic (not while sleeping), what do you do? Sorry about the basic question, but maybe this will help others also.
 
How maney mg of hgh = 1 IU ?

My buddy purchased HGH and it came with 7 viles of crystal HGH and 7 of water. Each vile of HGH had 6 mg of HGH, how maney IUs is 6 mg of HGH?
I believe but am not at all certain that 1 IU = 1 mg of HGH, is this true?
 
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