r-ALA can make you FATTER!

[Animalkits]

when you read the studies and are able to understand them, come back and play.

At least I'm not playing with the truth and peoples money.

Eat more sugar and then take my pill to get rid of it. If somebody disagrees, they are just playing like I'm playing with your money now that you've wasted it!

 

[Animalkits]

its well known that is not the case

Prove it!

 

[macro]

your question has been answered time and time again.

there are at least 2 mechanisms by which R-ala inhibits adipogenesis (aka known as lipogenesis).

The main one is through the reduction of plasma insulin. Since you seem to be unable to grasp the concept, insulin is the primary adipogenic hormone.

The secondary is through the inhibition of adipogenesis through modulation of the MaPK pathway.

whats also quite odd is that you constantly overlook the massive anecdotal evidence that r-ala and to a lesser extent high dose racemate use has a partioning affect during "bulking". Though no one has ever stated that you can eat massive amounts of food constantly and not get fatter by using these compounds.
You can eat more, particularly more carbohydrates, with less adipogenesis.

some people, because of poor insulin sensitivity (which is quite a wide spread issue), will find that they can eat almost anything they want. This is likely because thier main issue with respect to adiposity was insulin sensitivity (ie.. they could have eaten that way anyways (from a metabolic standpoint) were it not for their insulin insensitivity)


and as a note, whether you recognize it or not, the inhibition of adipocyte differentiation and adipogenesis is a rather big plus. Not just for the obese, but also for those that bulk heavily.

as a further note: fat cells are one of the main tissues in which aromatase is produced, so having more of them is not really a good thing.

 

[macro]

Eat more sugar and then take my pill to get rid of it.

actually R-ala is not as effective with sugar per se when overfeeding, as sucrose is actually half dextrose and half fructose. You still get the insulin minimization, however fructose does not need insulin to be stored as fat.

 

[Austrian]

In contrast, insulin in combination with resistance exercise stimulates translation initiation and protein synthesis through enhanced activity of a guanine nucleotide exchange protein referred to as eIF2B. In both cases, the amount of insulin required for the effects is low, and a concentration of the hormone that approximates that observed in fasting animals is sufficient for maximal stimulation. This review summarizes the results of a number of recent studies that have helped to establish our present understanding of the interactions of insulin, amino acids, and exercise in the regulation of protein synthesis in skeletal muscle.

does that mean that i can gain muscle mass even on a ketogenic diet? i am currently eating very little carbs and i am leaning out nicely while keeping strength up. i have done this in the past but have always added carbs after a few months because i thought i could gain muscle faster when eating more carbs; i even was under the impression that i cannot gain any muscle while running an Atkins style of diet. does that mean extra carbs are unnecessary? it would be great to ignore carbs forever, i would be lean the whole year and could still grow.

 

[Drveejay11]

Hell of a discussion going on here......props to Animal, Ulter and Macro------sure would be nice to keep it CIVIL though Any chance?

Anyways.......

After sifting through the above posts from BOTH sides presented here, I do not think the argument is whether or not r-ALA or ALA fasciliates glucose disposal efficiently; but rather, if it effectively and favorably drives the micronutrients (amino's and glucose) into muscle cells preferentially over fat cells or does it simply "clear them" from the blood stream quicker.

How has it been shown to selectively enhance the muscle cells' ability to pull nutrients in as opposed to the adipocytes doing the same? Wouldn't THIS be based entirely on the individual's genetic dispositon...."where" the amino's and glucose will be temporarily stored and NOT solely based on glucose clearance as THIS does not dictate the focal directon of disposal? This would be more of an increased receptor cell sensitivity issue (initiating the the pre-step of creating an environment conducive to glucose clearing) verses a clearing of the glucose/amino's.

I have taken ALA (tried both) on and off for ~2 years now and I definitley "feel better" using it with the ingestion of higher carb meals. HOWEVER.......one thing that's always concerned me is this: HOW can I be assured once the glucose is cleared from my bloodstream, that it will be directed into my muscle cells vs my fat cells? How can I know that by taking ALA, I have induced an optimal environment for simple glucose clearance verses a much preferred increased inulin sensitivity scenario (muscle cell specific)?

Personally, when I consume my carb-up meals along side ala, I "feel" that ala has dome its "job" in assisting the rapid removal of glucose and therefore the feeling of lethargy (brought upon from excess insulin) is inhibited. Fine! I buy that 100%. I also believe that with LESS insulin floating around, there is obviously LESS fat storage! HOWEVER.....it still remains unclear WHERE the glucose is going. THIS to me has never been "proven".

WHY should it be assumed that the glucose is being disposed of "properly"? Define "properly"? If by that you mean.......clearing it out of your blood efficiently; resulting in the need for less insulin release.....I believe it IS disposed of "properly". However.......if you fail to prove that it will preferentially be driven into muscle cells verses fat cells.......I DO NOT think this could be/should be labeled as "proper glucose disposal" via increased insulin sensitivity; conversely....it merely becomes a glucose disposal agent without much significance (unless you are obese or a diabetic or someone pre-Syndrome X)...therfore its "purpose" becomes much less significant IMO.

Furthermore, if it follows the second example, essentially only "mimicking insulin" verses increasing insulin sensitivity favorably of the muscle cells; it would NOT favor glucose or amino acid uptake into the muscle cells. Again......its purpose becomes limited. Has THIS be shown one way or the other?

 

[TxLonghorn]

Hell of a discussion going on here......props to Animal, Ulter and Macro------sure would be nice to keep it CIVIL though Any chance?

Anyways.......

How can I know that by taking ALA, I have induced an optimal environment for simple glucose clearance verses a much preferred increased inulin sensitivity scenario (muscle cell specific)?

I second the first sentiment and bump the question.

Can this question be answered at this time?

 

[Governor]

all I know is R-ALA didnt do shit for me, and thats the only study I really care about. You two can post and argue all day long. It cost me 32 bucks, but at least I didnt have to get caught up in all this crap.

 

[Animalkits]

I second the first sentiment and bump the question.

Can this question be answered at this time?

YOU CANNOT! YOU FINALLY ASKED THE RIGHT QUESTION WHICH IS WHAT I'VE BEEN SAYING ALL ALONG! ALA OF ANY FORM DISPOSES OF GLUCOSE INTO FAT CELLS JUST THE SAME AS MUSCLE. IT'S ALL THE SAME.


Somebody felt better on ALA. RIGHT because it's an excellent anti-oxidant and immune stimulator!

Now for my non-grasping ignorance.

WE ARE NOT DIABETICS!

Yes, r-ala 'may' help keep insulin down with insulin being the primary which allows for fat burning, but the insulin suppression isn't hugely significant and likely becomes MEANINGLESS because the ALA jams glucose into your fat cells, anyhow. So, ala is supposedly not making you fat by lessor insulin output.

YES, r-ala inhibits lipogenesis in PRE-ADIPOCYTES, but not mature fat cells until you get to a certain level of ALA. Note that the recommend amount of ALA just barely gets you over the inhibition amount, but they never tell you when eaten with what nor could you control it! If you eat a certain way you may NEVER get to that amount in the blood?

And what happens if you don't reach that amount in the blood due to inadequate dosing or slowed absorption?

THE ALA INCREASES LIPOGENESIS!

But let's say you DO make it to the inhibition level at some point. How long does it take to get there and how long does it trail off where you will then be in FAT ADDITION?

YES, less insulin is good, but NO we are NOT diabetix and NOT obese and NO we do NOT want glucose forced into our fat cells!

 

[Animalkits]

H`
`

I have taken ALA (tried both) on and off for ~2 years now and I definitley "feel better" using it with the ingestion of higher carb meals. HOWEVER.......one thing that's always concerned me is this: HOW can I be assured once the glucose is cleared from my bloodstream, that it will be directed into my muscle cells vs my fat cells? How can I know that by taking ALA, I have induced an optimal environment for simple glucose clearance verses a much preferred increased inulin sensitivity scenario (muscle cell specific)?
`

Very good! They cannot assure and in fact, if you work out, your insulin sensitivity in fat cells goes DOWN which in muscle it goes up. Now you are going to take ALA and ruin THAT? That's crazy.

Again, you get less insulin which decreases time insulin is inhibiting lipolysis, but that glucose is still going somewhere where it will be stored or come back out to be stored somewhere else.

I also see where people are equating the glucose disposal ability with amino acid and other nutrient uptake enhancement. Where is that coming from?

 

[Animalkits]

does that mean that i can gain muscle mass even on a ketogenic diet? i am currently eating very little carbs and i am leaning out nicely while keeping strength up. i have done this in the past but have always added carbs after a few months because i thought i could gain muscle faster when eating more carbs; i even was under the impression that i cannot gain any muscle while running an Atkins style of diet. does that mean extra carbs are unnecessary? it would be great to ignore carbs forever, i would be lean the whole year and could still grow.

Yes you can and even better is a timed/post-workout insulin release and here is a good read.

http://animalkits.haha.be/phpBB7/viewtopic.php?t=9040

 

[Drveejay11]

I also see where people are equating the glucose disposal ability with amino acid and other nutrient uptake enhancement. Where is that coming from?

From its claim of being able to mimick insulin (if it truly does....this would occur as well).

 

[Mudge]

Hell of a discussion going on here......props to Animal, Ulter and Macro------sure would be nice to keep it CIVIL though Any chance?

A great man shows his greatness, by the way he treats little men.

 

[Animalkits]

I believe they mean it mimics the glucose disposal abilities; for example, metformin and phenformin were 'glucose disposal agents', but they made you feel like shit and they also impaired growth hormone uptake. Whenever you start messing with glut 4 you can have these type of problems with other mechanisms as the formins show.

I don't believe I've seen or they do not know HOW the uptake is happening with ALA. If it's passive vs via the insulin receptor, there could/can be totally different end events though you really don't need much insulin in the fed state to increase protein in the first place.

Another problem occurs when after workout 'glucose disposal' is warranted. Insulin receptors are greater on muscle and lessor on fat cells. Insulin can't go where there are NO receptors, but guess where ALA goes?

ANYWHERE it wants regardless of receptor status.

I don't think that's an insulin mimic.

 

[Drveejay11]

A great man shows his greatness, by the way he treats little men.

you just call me little

LOL................

 

[ulter]

Austrian, I would not suggest you follow Animals advice of trying to add mass without carbs. I don't know if you're a body builder but Animal is not and he has no mass whatsoever. He's last one I would take advice from on this subject.

Animal, as for your comment that I am a fatass sitting behind a desk, that's pretty funny. I am at 215 9% right now and headed for 7-8% by March where I'll stay all summer. You on the other hand have never spent a day over 150 pounds.

Governor, I am sorry to hear you didn't get the results you were looking for from R-ALA. I am just as sorry you didn't buy Glucorell R because you may have done better if you had. And if you didn't you'd get a refund.
While Animal rages on, mostly due to his lack of comprehension, about how Macro is lying about the effectiveness of Glucorell R you should know about the product and it’s performance over the last year.

Over 4000 people purchased it A SECOND TIME or more after using it.

It was approved as “meeting the claims of the label”, (the claims Animal says it doesn’t meet), by the pharmacists and physicians on the review boards of both Amerimark (world’s largest health supply catalog) and AARP. It’s also being reviewed for approval by 5 other national medical review boards that I can’t get into at this time.

Glucorell is now the largest supplier of R+ Lipoic Acid in the world and is sold on 5 continents.

Now how it is that all these physicians, pharmacists, and users all agree that Glucorell R does what it’s supposed to do but Animal doesn’t? He doesn’t understand it and has never used it.

 

[Animalkits]

Another fascinatingly informative.

All the doctors say steroids don't work and are dangerous and cause roid rage and they are also doing a wonderful job at controlling obesity.

I weigh almost as much as you at about 6% and I can climb mountains and hit 45 in a sprint. I've been in the top 10 NUMEROUS times at elite nationals as well as masters nationals and worlds and you putz ass scammers rip off all your info from track and field and track cycling and claim it your own you then think you are something special. You are a zero. Compete at something besides a space in line at the buffet and refridgerator.

And again, please tell how good all that glucose going into our fat cells is. I just don't understand it!

 

[ulter]

Macro has explained the facts to you at least 5 times and you ignore it. Your shite gets old and you haven't said anything new on this thread in 4 days. And in that Macro has explained and re-explained where you're mistaken in your misunderstanding. You're just not getting it.

 

[Animalkits]

Lean muscle looks a lot smaller than fat!

 

[TxLonghorn]

KEEP IT CIVIL, STOP NAMECALLING, ETC., ETC.

I have personally learned more about ala and r-ala in the last 2 days than I ever have before. But there is no need for this to turn personal.

If you can't refrain from the flames, don't post and move on to another less emotional topic.