The mean of '' benzyl benzoate ''
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Buttman3
New member
Hijacked is correct.
As far as Test E, though, it can melt at room temperature on a hot day, and so, it can be done without BB from my experience. The oil can get a bit thick, but it won't crash or turn into a solid.
Be warned though, if you use a lot of BB, it can cause injection pain. I personally don't use any BB because of this.
As far as Test E, though, it can melt at room temperature on a hot day, and so, it can be done without BB from my experience. The oil can get a bit thick, but it won't crash or turn into a solid.
Be warned though, if you use a lot of BB, it can cause injection pain. I personally don't use any BB because of this.
Buttman3
New member
From what I have read, BB is a solvent, so it melts some compounds. And as the result, it will keep a solution from forming crystals aka "crashing" and make it hold.
What % do you use of bb when brewing test e? 15-18%?
really test e needs no bb ,however my buddy uses 10%bb hell even in eq which is liquid at room temp, and test e melts at about 96 degrees f
Ive heard that it can be useful in test e if living in colder climates, will it do any harm using it? Will it make injections more painful?
you know thats a big debate on ba or bb causing pain, i think higher ba equals more pain but everyone is different
jamesl0822
New member
Helps thin it too....
there is a big debate on carbolic acid attached to raw Test E powder from china causing the pain....I proved that there is in fact phenol (carbolic acid) on my Test E bc it is soluble in water but he hormone is not so I put it in water then drained and tested for the presence of phenol....but the process was so aggravating that its just not worth messing with....at least for me.
there is a big debate on carbolic acid attached to raw Test E powder from china causing the pain....I proved that there is in fact phenol (carbolic acid) on my Test E bc it is soluble in water but he hormone is not so I put it in water then drained and tested for the presence of phenol....but the process was so aggravating that its just not worth messing with....at least for me.
Buttman3
New member
Hey James,
When you said the process was aggravating, are you referring to the testing for the presence of phenol or the mixing of Test E with water and draining it?
Also, was the Test E pain free after you drained it?
DrHiney
Meathead University
Benzyl Alcohol (BA) is used to increase the lipid solubility of esterfied compounds and to prevent bacteria growth in the oil. Most UGL's use excess BA or only BA as the co-solvent, due to it's modest price. Unfortunately, it can cause the destruction of cells and significant localised pain and inflammation. The discomfort is characterised by fairly rapid onset of a painful, red, swollen area.
The shorter an ester, the less solubility is has in oil. This necessitates higher concentrations of BA to prevent the compound from 'crashing' out of solution. When the oil is injected, the BA is absorbed from the location of the oil depot. This caused the active compound to precipitate fine crystals within the muscle. The onset of this pain is often 4-12 hours after injection and is characterised by a hard, red, swelling at the injection site. To prevent this an additional co-solvent is needed, Benzyl Benzoate. BB maintains solubility of the esterfied compound past the point at which BA has been removed, preventing crystaline precipitation. Most UGL's don't add this to their compounded oils due to the higher cost. If added at approximately 20% by volume you can prevent most associated short ester pain.
The shorter an ester, the less solubility is has in oil. This necessitates higher concentrations of BA to prevent the compound from 'crashing' out of solution. When the oil is injected, the BA is absorbed from the location of the oil depot. This caused the active compound to precipitate fine crystals within the muscle. The onset of this pain is often 4-12 hours after injection and is characterised by a hard, red, swelling at the injection site. To prevent this an additional co-solvent is needed, Benzyl Benzoate. BB maintains solubility of the esterfied compound past the point at which BA has been removed, preventing crystaline precipitation. Most UGL's don't add this to their compounded oils due to the higher cost. If added at approximately 20% by volume you can prevent most associated short ester pain.
ok so what would be good but not excess ba ,will 2%ba be enough like you said to prevent crashing out solution
Buttman3
New member
DrHiney,
I agree with what you said about BA and that it can cause injection pain, because I have used UGL gears that had BA, and I experienced excruciating pain every time I use them. In addition, I have read a research article on BA and how it caused damage to muscles in rats.
Regarding short ester forming crystal and how that might cause injection pain, I'm not too sure about that, because I have used Test Prop and Mast Prop, both of which were around 100mg/ml, had no BA/BB, and they both crystallized when the oil cooled down, and I have never had any pain with either.
I'm not dismissing what you said as a possibility, but perhaps this might only occur at much higher dosages than 100mg/ml.
As to using BB, I'm very cautious about using it, because of the following research articles:
(BENZYL BENZOATE - National Library of Medicine HSDB Database)
"Human Toxicity Excerpts:
Benzyl benzoate is relatively nontoxic but may irritate the skin and eyes. Increased pruritus and irritation (manifested by burning and stinging, particularly of the genitalia and scalp) are common and may be severe in hot humid climates.
[American Medical Association, Council on Drugs. AMA Drug Evaluations Annual 1994. Chicago, IL: American Medical Association, 1994., p. 1615] **PEER REVIEWED**
Non-Human Toxicity Excerpts:
Cats receiving 33% benzyl benzoate in isopropyl alcohol (two doses of 22,420 mg each), ethyl alcohol (two doses of 22,420 mg each), or water (three doses of 22,420 mg each) locally died at 43, 46, and 69 hr after treatment, respectively.
[Hayes, W.J., Jr., E.R. Laws, Jr., (eds.). Handbook of Pesticide Toxicology. Volume 3. Classes of Pesticides. New York, NY: Academic Press, Inc., 1991., p. 1506] **PEER REVIEWED*
Dermally applied benzyl benzoate was nontoxic to the pig, sheep, heifer, or horse, even after five or six daily applications, but was toxic to the cat.
[Clayton, G. D. and F. E. Clayton (eds.). Patty's Industrial Hygiene and Toxicology: Volume 2A, 2B, 2C: Toxicology. 3rd ed. New York: John Wiley Sons, 1981-1982., p. 2308] **PEER REVIEWED**
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jamesl0822
New member
Process of removing water from the hormone was the aggravating part. Not to mention that although my water did test positive for the presence of phenol after draining it off of my Test E but not before leaving me to believe that I had removed all phenol from my Test E...the rats still got PIP. I almost never have this problem with Test E unless its over 300mg/ml. I also agree with Hiney that BB in the 20-25% range helps most PIP ....but not all.
Buttman3
New member
Those are some smart rats you have
My Test E also causes pain when it's at higher concentration (around 300mg/ml).
DrHiney
Meathead University
Just about any alcohol when injected can have an effect on tissues, especially intrathecal tissues; IPA can kill nerve endings if administered intrathecally. All pharmaceutical grade testosterone/ progesterone injections contain both BA and BB.
Buttman3, I am not sure I understand what you may disagree with; just the PIP of a crystallized product? If so, then I agree. It is user dependent in my experience, as I have used test suspension 100mg/ml that recrystallized (first batch I only used about 15% BB) and did not really experience any pain.
I have read this study before, actually. It is interesting info, but they are administering large amounts of high percentages of BB in animals most weighing less than 1/4 of a human. Benzoic acid (which is converted from BB and BA) can definitely be toxic, however I don't think our use of them in these compounds are cause for concern.
Plus I think the FDA would jump all over these drug companies making these pharmaceutical injectables were there enough evidence to do so.
Good post though!
SmilingBob
Just a rookie
Why do the big name drug companies use up to 20% BB in their long ester injectables? Thousands of people on testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) could have well over 100ml BB injected into themselves by the time the die. Is there just a lack of long term studies that show detrimental effects of BB or is it simply geared towards the end user in that more BB = smaller pins? I'm basically asking why they decided to go this route in the first place. Was it simply tradition or obvious conclusion based on animal tests?
If these companies product has no PIP, then why might mine at the same concentration of hormone? Is it the new nemesis on the block carbolic acid (ie shitty raws)? Is it that typical HB uses 2% BA to fight sterility whereas pharma grade only needs 0.9%? It seems the theory that 20%BB=never any PIP has been squashed, but was it due to outside reasons like those mentioned above and/or higher concentrations?
It seems to me that PIP is a hoop too many of us are jumping through when the reason it exists is right under our nose.
I'm sorry to beat a dead horse, but I love the discussion going on here. Please continue.
If these companies product has no PIP, then why might mine at the same concentration of hormone? Is it the new nemesis on the block carbolic acid (ie shitty raws)? Is it that typical HB uses 2% BA to fight sterility whereas pharma grade only needs 0.9%? It seems the theory that 20%BB=never any PIP has been squashed, but was it due to outside reasons like those mentioned above and/or higher concentrations?
It seems to me that PIP is a hoop too many of us are jumping through when the reason it exists is right under our nose.
I'm sorry to beat a dead horse, but I love the discussion going on here. Please continue.
