Large Dose Cycles vs Smaller Dose Cycles...which make you bigger?
- Thread starter natty
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Brett_Weir
New member
Personally, i don't think you lose muscle, at least what you put on over a period of time........Some say you lose all that could be attributed to gains from the sauce.........I can think of a couple of people i know that grew from the gear and quit training for a period of time they did not lose.......I know some that took high doses and stopped suddenly and they didn't look like the same person after a month or so.....
JohnnyB
Community Veteran
600mg of test is still reasonable, but at what point does the larger dose(more then 600mg) just cause side effects and not gains?
It's obvious that larger doses cause more gains, by looking at todays BB's compared to the 60-80's, but with those gains has come side effects. Gyno be the main one, the other added drugs brought the gut. I know that's some what off topic, but those added drugs did add to the total amount of drugs being taken.
Like Drvj11 said "there are only have so many receptors to attach to", what ever is not being accepted by those receptors, has a high possibility of conversion to an unwanted side effect. Which won't be muscle, but could add to the total weight gained.
People may be gaining more weight off of high dose cycles, but how much of that is water and/or fat? What the out come of a cycle is, is what you keep, not what you gain.
If you've seen the movie Colors you might remember this, I think it's a good way to look at what were trying to do.
There's a young and a old bull, they're walking over the crest of a hill. When they look down into the valley there's a herd of cows. The young bull says to the older bull "lets run down there and f#$k us one." The old bull said "let walk down there and f$%k them all."
The point being, go slow you'll get more out of it in the end, if you try and get it all at once it'll be short lived.
Your doses in time will go up, the higher you start the higher you have to go and the higher the possibility of unwanted side effects.
JohnnyB
It's obvious that larger doses cause more gains, by looking at todays BB's compared to the 60-80's, but with those gains has come side effects. Gyno be the main one, the other added drugs brought the gut. I know that's some what off topic, but those added drugs did add to the total amount of drugs being taken.
Like Drvj11 said "there are only have so many receptors to attach to", what ever is not being accepted by those receptors, has a high possibility of conversion to an unwanted side effect. Which won't be muscle, but could add to the total weight gained.
People may be gaining more weight off of high dose cycles, but how much of that is water and/or fat? What the out come of a cycle is, is what you keep, not what you gain.
If you've seen the movie Colors you might remember this, I think it's a good way to look at what were trying to do.
There's a young and a old bull, they're walking over the crest of a hill. When they look down into the valley there's a herd of cows. The young bull says to the older bull "lets run down there and f#$k us one." The old bull said "let walk down there and f$%k them all."
The point being, go slow you'll get more out of it in the end, if you try and get it all at once it'll be short lived.
Your doses in time will go up, the higher you start the higher you have to go and the higher the possibility of unwanted side effects.
JohnnyB
Brett_Weir
New member
They were talking about smaller doses but 200mg. or less is too low......I could see making gains from that as a first timer.....With longer cycles i would think 500mg. would have to be the lower end of the spectrum, that is only a guess... I have no way of knowing because it varies so much form person to person....
Last edited:
Brett_Weir
New member
`The old bull said "let walk down there and f$%k them all."' Ecellent point.......And it is funny as hell.......A lot of truth in that....
dude2003
New member
Androgen Receptor Activation
Once a free molecule of steroid reaches the muscle cell, it diffuses into the cell. The diffusion can be with or without transport-protein assistance. Once in the cell, the Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) is makes its way to the cell nucleus where it can bind with an androgen receptor (AR), and activate the receptor. Two of these activated receptor complexes join together to form the androgen response element (ARE). The ARE interacts with DNA in the nucleus, and increases the transcription of certain genes (such as muscle protein genes). As long as the ARE is intact, it accelerates gene transcription. Remember, though, that the Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) and the receptor are in a state of flux (binding and un-binding), just like with the Carrier proteins. So the ARE can be deactivated just by losing one of the two Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) that are bound to the AR's. This equilibrium situation explains why 1 gram per week testosterone is more effective than 1/2 gram per week, even though 1/2 gram appears to be more than enough to saturate all the AR's in the body. The higher concentration makes it more likely that the receptors will be occupied by an AAS, and the ARE will be intact for a longer period of time, on average.
Once a free molecule of steroid reaches the muscle cell, it diffuses into the cell. The diffusion can be with or without transport-protein assistance. Once in the cell, the Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) is makes its way to the cell nucleus where it can bind with an androgen receptor (AR), and activate the receptor. Two of these activated receptor complexes join together to form the androgen response element (ARE). The ARE interacts with DNA in the nucleus, and increases the transcription of certain genes (such as muscle protein genes). As long as the ARE is intact, it accelerates gene transcription. Remember, though, that the Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) and the receptor are in a state of flux (binding and un-binding), just like with the Carrier proteins. So the ARE can be deactivated just by losing one of the two Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) that are bound to the AR's. This equilibrium situation explains why 1 gram per week testosterone is more effective than 1/2 gram per week, even though 1/2 gram appears to be more than enough to saturate all the AR's in the body. The higher concentration makes it more likely that the receptors will be occupied by an AAS, and the ARE will be intact for a longer period of time, on average.
Paulie R
New member
My last off season cycle (I'm precontest now) was 2 grams total not 2 g of test. It was the first time I ever went over 12 - 1400mg. I'm 43 and I never had results like this in 20 years of training.
However, If my nutrition and training were not excellent, I doubt my results would have een so good.
I took 5 months off gear and started at 205. In 5 months I am a leaner than when I started, 225.
However, If my nutrition and training were not excellent, I doubt my results would have een so good.
I took 5 months off gear and started at 205. In 5 months I am a leaner than when I started, 225.
ready2explode
New member
Obviously you're being thick headed. There are no studies that I know of using a dose higher than 600mgs of test enanthate. If 200mgs is better than 300, and 500 is better than 350, and 600 is better than 500 then what makes you think that 2g wont be better than 1g. Its true if you take 500mgs and gain 15lbs, that doubling the dose wont necessarily give you double the gains, but it sure as hell will give you more gains (which was the original question). All 3 studies noticed a dose response relationship. What would make you believe that at some point there would be none?jcp2 said:
Brett_Weir
New member
ready2explode said:
dude that is funny as hell......I agree with you......Intuitively you have to draw a line, otherwise why not a gram per day.....The best method is to use no more than you need before progressing.....
jcp2
Community Veteran
ready2explode said:
Because at some point the gains stop. At what point is that for most of us. That is where i am going with this. Will i get better gains off 2 grams of test, i am not sure. WIll some people, probably, but very few. This is why i think pro bodbuilding has alot to do with how much drugs can be used by an individual. I don't think the average lifter can use 2 grams of test, and i don't think the results will be noticably better than on 1 gram.
Brett_Weir
New member
Batman said:
That about sums it up.....
ready2explode
New member
And what I'm saying is that science has shown us, so far, that their is a dose dependant relationship when it comes to gains at least up until 600mgs. I am extrapolating these findings, so yes you can argue, but I highly doubt that you are correct. We'll have to aggree to disaggree.jcp2 said:
Now if you wanted to get into the risk vs benefit talk, I'd agree with 99% of the ppl on the boards.
jcp2
Community Veteran
ready2explode said:
I here you, and i do agree with more gear= more gains, i am not just sure where this ends, maybe at 1 gram of test, maybe 2 grams of test, maybe 3. I am talking about the majority, not the few who can handle the large amounts, i guess we will agree to disagree, and i think after reading this thread we do not differ all that much in our thoughts.
ready2explode
New member
I think so toojcp2 said:
tubadjuttcame
New member
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well,
the pro bbers of today run godly amounts
3grams of test alone. not even counting the other compounds. now if you or me ran those doses, would be end up being that big. diet and everything is perfect also....nahh no way would we be that big. some people have to run higher doses to acheieve what they want while others run the bare minimum and have great results. its all how your body reacts and how good ur gear is too lol. none of the underdosed bullshit
the pro bbers of today run godly amounts
3grams of test alone. not even counting the other compounds. now if you or me ran those doses, would be end up being that big. diet and everything is perfect also....nahh no way would we be that big. some people have to run higher doses to acheieve what they want while others run the bare minimum and have great results. its all how your body reacts and how good ur gear is too lol. none of the underdosed bullshit
Zeek
Community Veteran
The spammer are out in force bumping old threads!
An oldie but a good one!
May as well get on topic for a sec
I feel that the longer you carry around a certain body weight the easier it will be for you to either carry that weight or get back to that weight. IMO the eating habits are what change and allow for this.
At the end of the day when you come off AAS all together your body will only hold on to the amount of muscle that it is genetically able to hold on to, usually related directly to your natural testosterone production.
An oldie but a good one!
May as well get on topic for a sec
I feel that the longer you carry around a certain body weight the easier it will be for you to either carry that weight or get back to that weight. IMO the eating habits are what change and allow for this.
At the end of the day when you come off AAS all together your body will only hold on to the amount of muscle that it is genetically able to hold on to, usually related directly to your natural testosterone production.
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