Irentat's Joint Repair and Rebuilding Cycle

[Irentat]

regarding the nip, I always felt like having a DHT in the mix seems to help, like proviron. Or, you could go with Anavar (var) or Primo which can also be good for the joints, but obviously not Winstrol (winny).

By injecting into the joint do you still get the systemic effect(fat burning etc) from the HGH that you would get by doing regular subq injections?

Thanks for the input. Anavar (var) is on the horizon someday and will be an option. I would think that test I take produces enough DHT but still learning and not sure what my next step is...if any. I suppose as long as I don't have lumps and irritation, I have estrogen/prolactin under control.

Regarding GH, the body adsorbs the intra-articular GH as it does normally but the process is much slower. If I remember correctly, it takes about an hour for 1/2 of the GH to be adsorbed by the body. All normal benefits "should" be transferred to the whole body. I say this hesitantly because I don't have complete proof other than my own self. If I take 10 IU into one joint, I will feel the well known effects of excessive GH use in my other joints in the form of pain hence I know it is traveling to the other areas.

Another thing to note though is the site-specific action of GH. Obviously the cartilage grows back so some of the GH was used to heal the area injected into. My guess is (and it is only a guess) that you don't get the FULL effect of rHGH when you use it in a site-specific manner compared to subq. Tests do show that subq is the quickest way into the blood stream. When rHGH is injected into the muscle, the full effect is blunted and the adsorption rate is slower. So, don't forget to use GH when you are sore in a certain muscle. It does help. I have proven that to myself many times.

 

[Irentat]

Another update:
192 lb now in the morning. If I take my Arimidex and am a bit dehydrated, I can see for the first time my "six-pack" barely showing.

Not knowing how long I will be on cycle, I decided to start Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) @ 250 IU 2X week. The first shot and the "boys" came right back. After the second, they were normal size, from what I can tell.

Had to be on the road for a week drinking heavily and eating too many carbs...yes I have to entertain in my business. Came back and my weight was exactly the same as were my lifts and my cardio.

Went in for the high-resolution MRI on the left ankle. Really no idea how to read these things but from what I can tell, I have good cartliage thickness in all but one area. The cysts I have are slowly going away compared to a year ago. Once cyst the size of a marble in the middle of my talus, (the bone that the tib/fib sit on) is growing back new bone and being filled in. Some bone underneath the cartilage is still looking pretty rough but the cartilage covering them eliminates rubbing. Overall, I can see where I need to go from here however my left ankle still does not like injections as it gets irritated any time I inject.

Doctor will either be willing to do surgery to remove the spurs or I have to find another surgeon. Either way, I am maintaining GH injections into both ankles and still getting improvements. My right ankle is just doing fantastic. No more daily swelling occurs and I walk without even thinking of it anymore. The left is now the one needing help.

A study on rodents came to the following conclusion:
CONCLUSIONS--Androgens appear to protect cartilage from inflammation induced breakdown in male animals...and suggest that long term androgen replacement may help prevent joint damage and disability.
So confirmation I am going down the right path.

 

[1badmofo]

YouTube - Bad Mother Fucker wallet from Pulp Fiction

I just went through and re-read your log. I found this post funny because that is my favorite movie and that scene is where my username originated from.

 

[1badmofo]

I know you have done plenty of research. Do you think chondroitin/glucosamine/MSM would help at all with your joint issues? I dont see you taking it, so I'm guessing there is a reason. Just wondering what your opinion is on it's effectiveness. Also, at 42 do you see yourself ever really coming off? I know I'm probably just going to stay on testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) dose of test especially so I can run deca indefinitely. Also, has your research found any studies that indicate stem cell could be used to rebuild cartilage? I really consider myself lucky to not have any significant joint issues besides this neck surgery which is a total game changer for me going forward. I appreciate your log because it's unique and valuable to anyone having similar issues. Also, what is your opinion on adequan for joints?

 

[Irentat]

I know you have done plenty of research. Do you think chondroitin/glucosamine/MSM would help at all with your joint issues? I dont see you taking it, so I'm guessing there is a reason. Just wondering what your opinion is on it's effectiveness.[/

Yes there is a reason: it does not work for me. I have tried different versions and quantities of ALL different OTC supplements with NO results. For true joint supplementation, the only option, I feel is direct injection. That is why I posted on the "Nutrient Solution" some months prior. It only makes sense. Why take pills and have it highly diluted in the blood stream and then "possibly" transfer across the synovial membrane to start to work? Why not just inject directly in. No one does these things because they are not as bad off as me and honestly, I am more persistent and open to ideas than most folks...hence why I take AAS even though I have no interest in bodybuilding (but I do like the body recomposition it gives ).

Also, at 42 do you see yourself ever really coming off? I know I'm probably just going to stay on testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) dose of test especially so I can run deca indefinitely.

I have no idea right now. I want to come off cycle but if I am not healed, the pain "might" come back. In the end, I have made a personal decision that if I permanently change my endocrine system by being on an extremely long cycle, it is an accepted risk. The benefits are too strong for me to ignore.

Also, has your research found any studies that indicate stem cell could be used to rebuild cartilage?

Hell yeah! A friend is doing this to rebuild her knee. But this tells me you did not read all of my links Dr. Dunn's research clearly shows that HGH rebuilds the cartilage by having the body generate its own stem cells. You just have to inject into the joint to get that benefit.

I really consider myself lucky to not have any significant joint issues besides this neck surgery which is a total game changer for me going forward. I appreciate your log because it's unique and valuable to anyone having similar issues. Also, what is your opinion on adequan for joints?

Thanks. I do appreciate it. Not only is it a reference for me to go back to, I do truly hope to help others with this. No more joint replacements, they are a bane to our society, especially to younger people.

 

[Epic Ed]

Thanks for keeping this updated, bro. I'm still following along. Hope that left ankle starts to catch up soon.

 

[Irentat]

Thanks for keeping this updated, bro. I'm still following along. Hope that left ankle starts to catch up soon.

Ed,

Thanks for that. Nothing really new to report since I have been on a "semi-vacation" for a week and so the diet sucks. Really waiting for the doc to get back with me on the MRI and see if we are going to schedule surgery or not.

Per your avatar you have put on some weight since I saw you last...

 

[Epic Ed]

Yeah, I do everything to extremes, dude. ;-)

 

[Irentat]

Short update:

Vacation was great but it ended up being a feast of processed foods and sodium-filled snacks. I got back and was 199. Kinda pissed me off so I have been on a low calorie, high water diet for the last few days that has left me weaker. 5lb came off immediatly but am bummed since I was about to seem my abs for the first time ever right before vacation and they are not quite there yet.

I have decided to do a bit more cardio to get my BF% down and focus a bit more on higher reps. All joints feeling good.

Ankle front:

Damn left ankle HATES any GH injections! My right can take it but not my left. Basically, when I inject, I limp for 3+ days. Tough to get things done inbetween my stints at home and being on the road for my job.

 

[Irentat]

Week 14 of my Test/Deca cycle. I had to travel again so diet was not the greatest but came back and am at 192 after increasing my water intake and lowering caloric. Still look as if I am 12% BF. Lifts still strong after the time off.

I was having a bout of ankle pain for about 2 weeks that came back on. It was if I was not taking anything again. Suddenly it went away but no idea why as I did not change any of my routine.

I have decided to stop the GH injections for a few weeks while I work on a different modality.

Found this article about growth plate cartilage:

Ultrastructural Effects of Testosterone on Epiphyseal Cartilage
From the article:
The maturing cells accumulated larger amounts of secretory products at earlier stages of their life cycle, and
appeared to undergo a more abrupt hypertrophy. In the zone of prehypertrophy, the interterritorial matrix contained foci of early and premature calcification and thicker and longer collagen fibers than at comparable levels in controls.
it is concluded that in intact animals, even large doses of testosterone initially cause
a stimulation of chondrocyte proliferation, prior to promoting maturation processes.

Obviously, there is a difference between growth plate cartilage and joint cartilage but there are similarities.

Since I have had "in the joint" testosterone injections with benefit in the past, I have decided to try this modality again. Testosterone Suspension will be used. I am not a fan of putting oil into my joint.

 

[Irentat]

Over the last few weeks, ankle joint pain has been better than at any time since starting my cycle. Going off of my scale, I am sitting at 3.5 for both ankles pretty much all the time (3 = No pain walking and no hesitancy. Running possible short distances with pain being felt). I think taking some time off of joint injections is helping. I was constantly feeling pain because of the continuous injections. Probably won't start up joint GH injections until late Sept. and need to do it with sterile water instead of Bac. water.

In the meantime, I am going to start the testosterone injections into the joint. I will keep you informed. Probably will be painful but you have to mix things up.

went to doc and we all agreed on a surgery to remove the bone spurs from my left ankle. Not sure when I want to start this but when it gets done and I recover, I should be able to start running again without pain. Walking is not an issue right now but running is.

Other than that, lifts are good and I am 192-193 lb and still 12% or less BF.

 

[Irentat]

Did my first injection of test suspension into the left ankle joint yesterday using a 23g needle. 40mg and hardly any pain, thank god! Today will be 60mg into the right ankle to see how it does.

 

[Irentat]

60mg test suspension into right ankle went well also. Frustrating thing though is the 23g clogged 2X before I got it right. That means sticking the ankle 3X before I was able to inject.

Doing more research into test injections directly into the joint, I found a good amount of information. The most unique thing is the fact that test, in the joint, does not aromatize! It turns mostly into DHT which is utilized by the cartilage cells to multiply. Very cool. This is theory on my part: since there is no estrogen created, the issue with weak collagen being created by test could possibly be eliminated.

Another thing, they used test E, cyp, etc in the studies directly into the joints. I am not ready to shoot oil into the joint!

A study excerpt:
Rabbit epiphyseal cartilage tissue has been shown to convert testosterone (T) to dihydrotestosterone (DHT). In this report, the metabolic conversion of T into DHT is shown to be age-dependent, being most active in cartilage from animal at the age of gonadal maturation. This should hold true for joint cartilage also. This was backed up by other studies I found.

And another:
Direct administration of testosterone increases rat tibial epiphyseal growth plate width
Song Guang Ren, Saul Malozowski, Prosper Sanchez, Donald E. Sweet, D. Lynn Loriaux and Fernando Cassorla

Local injection of hormones into the tibial epiphyseal growth plate offers a possible model to answer whether sex steroids can affect bone growth directly. To answer this question, we injected different doses of testosterone enanthate (4, 40, 120 and 400 µg/100 g of rat weight) once into the tibial epiphyseal growth plate of castrated 35-day-old male rats. The contralateral tibia was injected with sesame oil and served as control. All animals were sacrificed at age 42 days. Tibias were removed for measurement of epiphyseal growth plate width and blood was collected for measurement of serum IGF-I and testosterone. The lower doses of testosterone enanthate (4, 40 and 120 µg/100 g) did not produce any significant change in epiphyseal growth plate width. Testosterone at the largest dose tested (400 µg/100 g) increased epiphyseal growth plate width by about 15% compared to control (p < 0.01). At this dose, serum testosterone was not increased, suggesting that the effect on epiphyseal growth plate width was not due to higher systemic testosterone concentrations. No differences in IGF-I levels were observed among the groups. We conclude that direct administration of testosterone enanthate at a dose of 400 µg/100 g into the rat tibial epiphyseal growth plate can increase epiphyseal growth plate width.

The 400 micrograms/100 g is equivalent to 400 mg in a 100 kg person. 15% in 7 days is pretty significant.

 

[Irentat]

17 weeks now on Deca/test at 400/300 mg EW. I will look to cycle off shortly or taper down. I am back from a busy 2 weeks. Travel has not allowed me to work out consistently or eat well but I came back and was 192 even though I felt like I have lost a little muscle. Back at it hard for the next few weeks.

The only real issue I saw during this time was a tightening of the right front ankle from a lack of stretching/working out. Once I did stretch and do some exercises, the pain went away very quickly. Both ankles otherwise still a solid 3.5 on my scale of pain...still cannot get rid of some final "perception of pain" issues over the last few weeks. Otherwise, I walk very normally and never limp anymore and my hesitancy has pretty much gone away.

No joint injections done until just yesterday. Finally got the sterile water in and it made a HUGE difference. The same shot with Bac water would put me in pain. I did 5 IU GH followed with nutrient solution of amino acids, dextrose and Vitamin C, per the study I posted earlier. In a day or two I will follow up with joint injected test and another nutrient shot.

 

[Irentat]

Doc back with me on my surgery. He says end of Nov. but I think I will put it off until Dec. In the meantime, I will cycle off the Deca/test and start post cycle therapy (pct). Peptides and IA injections will continue. I will start another AAS cycle right before surgery.

In the meantime, the last 2 weeks have been tapering down of the Deca/test. The main thing I have seen from this is a lack of energy and my right shoulder hurting. For some reason, the right shoulder was the least affected by all that I did.

My sense is that the ankles are going to feel fine after cycling off and the Deca has left the body. It is just a sense but things are looking and feeling good in those joints...the main ones I was worried about.

5 months and almost reached my goal of pain relief. I know the limitations now and will work to get around them.

 

[Mr. Humdiddly]

Glad your doing better keep us posted!

 

[Irentat]

Glad someone is reading this...

 

[Mr. Humdiddly]

Glad someone is reading this...

You live like 40 minutes away from me so that helps peak my interest.

 

[Irentat]

Another milestone. Went to another long-walking water show and compared to when I did it in June, the pain from walking is MUCH less significant. Obviously there is improvement.

Last shot of Deca taken and just shooting a few day later with a bit more test cyp. Cycling off has started.

 

[BrettFavor]

I think you need to do some more research on supplements. The ones you have are great, but you can add some more that I personally know will really help.

MSM, Glucosamine, Chondrotin, and Cissus are all great for damaged joints and they all naturally reduce inflammation which aids in healing as you well know.

Also enzymes. Nattokinase and Serrapeptase especially can drastically reduce inflammation which can lead to healing and less pain. They also inhibit scar tissue formation and increase collagen formation. Both of which you need. Quercetin and other enzymes do wonders as well.

I personally have not tried Cissus, but the rest I have tried and they all work.




I have a really bad problem with inflammation, blood pooling, and lack of natural scar tissue rebuilding enzymes. I was born with it. I could go into scientific detail about it, but short story like you I tried a ton of doctors and they all said nothing could be done.

Now (along w/ HGH or GHRP/GRHR) I take natural anti-inflammatory medicine and enzymes like Nattokinase and Serrapeptase which inhibit excess scar tissue formation and can actually break down scar tissue. Scar tissue will always be there, but with collagen synthesis the scar tissue can become less pronounced and more flexible and nerves can start to work better again as well as small blood vessels.


Another thing to try is DMSO. I LOVE IT. It has great anti-inflammatory and free radical fighting properties, but it also allows certain vitamins and nutrients to pass through the skin.

So you put DMSO on your ankles and put the Vitamin E or whatever directly onto you ankles and it is almost like injecting it in there. That way it doesn't get wasted systemically in other locations....more gets used where you need it. I use this for old bad scar tissue spots and it decreases the amount of time to "rework" the scars.

ALSO YOU CAN INJECT DMSO! It increases the absorption of whatever else you inject with it. So I would research it a bit and start injecting whatever is recommended of DMSO and HGH or DMSO and Test or DMSO and the Vitamin C/dextrose solution or whatever.

DMSO lets stuff pass through your skin VERY readily, but it also helps absorption inside your body as well. This is in addition to it's own healing properties.

I swear by it. Just try it or at least research it. It's cheap too.



Another thing I am experimenting with now is pulsating 670nm wavelength light which can penetrate the skin and promote healing.


I realize our situations are different and I wish you all the best, but I know what it is like to be told there is no solution to your problems only to find out through my own research there was.

I am sure you have researched a ton on your own, but check some of these things out if you haven't already or take another look.


I hope things go well for you.